Hypothetical Trade: Okafor or Noel?

[Trueblood]

Considering Spurs current roster, of the two 76ers bigs I prefer Noel (also answers OP point). I don't watch 76ers so someone can get on this point and argue Okafor is by far the better big man prospect long term, but he doesn't fit very well. Spurs already have 2 scorers in their SL and Okafors value to stay on the court is offensive touches. I feel like Noel fits better.

76ers need perimeter players and that's likely what they want, specially guys who can shoot. Danny and Patty can be interesting but Patty is going to be a FA anyways why trade for him. I feel like the guy who could swing that trade is Danny.

I am not suggesting Anderson bc they already have not 1 but 2 guys like him (with higher ceiling) and until Anderson shows (hopefully for the Spurs) that he's going to shoot the 3 like he did in the summer he still remains a guy that's difficult to fit off the ball.

They could use Bertans I think but he hasn't proven to be an NBA level player. They have a similar guy in Stauskas, less tall but similar. Bertans has to show he can play in the NBA to raise his stock a little. Bottom line the trade would be Noel for Danny (don't know if the salaries match but 76rd cam attach filler). I don't think that trade makes the Spurs better.

I totally agree short term it would cause us to take a step back but long term I think it would make us better. If we could steal Noel and give him two years off the bench behind Gasol while letting chip fix his shot he could be a starter along side LA and Leonard. That would be a real challenge for any team to match up against imo. Thoughts?

[sasaint]

I didn't even want to get on that point, I don't like Rubio for the Spurs either. I at least want to see what Pop is going to do this season with Kawhi. I think that as much as fans and trolls here are putting the pressure on Anderson to show he can take a bigger burden for the bench... there's a lot more pressure on Kawhi at this point to show whether he's going to handle the ball a lot more, call his own number when he needs to and turn into a more ball dominant player. He's improved every season in aggressiveness and ballhandling but he has needed Tony in the past. POP started to put the balk in his hands more to end the season and I think that's what Pop wanted Kobe to mentor Kawhi on.

I think this season Spurs need to know if Kawhi is going to be able to handle most of the playmaking and ballhandling as maybe a less selfish Kobe type, with a caretaker PG like Manu did in his time, like Harden, Kobe, etc. If Kawhi can be that then you can place a shooter type next to him and call it a day. (I don't mention Patty bc he's so inadequate defensively but I think Pop is going to try that among his mad scientist mode). Anyways you get the point. It's all on Kawhi's ultimate development.

I obviously do not know what Pop has in mind for Kawhi, and I think it is terrific that Kawhi has improved every facet of his game - including his ball-handling skill. However, the last thing I would like to see is Kawhi become a ball-dominant second-coming of Kobe. In fact, I am not sure I liked the direction of the offense after last Christmas. I do not personally like iso-ball, and I believe putting the ball more and more in Kawhi's hands came at a cost. Kawhi was leading the league in 3-point FG % for the first half of the season. As he handled the ball more, his 3-point FG% slipped. I would like to see the Spurs move the ball more and not go the way of iso-ball. I like that brand of basketball. I also think it is a mistake to sacrifice Kawhi's dead-eye 3-point shooting for iso two-point baskets. Personally, I would like to see Kawhi scoring primarily on 3-point shots, alley-oops and other assisted plays going to the basket; next, on PnRs; and then on his own isos. I also believe that increasing Kawhi's ball handling responsibility will diminish his energy on the defensive end.

[dabom]

Kawhi LMA heavy ISO was because we the role players can't score. If they score at an acceptable clip, we don't need much ISOs. I see the idiot basketball player can't comprehend what's going on in their "own" team. .

[outmap]

Neither, I'd gamble on Joel Embiid's health if the price is right.

[dabom]

Neither, I'd gamble on Joel Embiid's health if the price is right.

Spurs aren't gonna gamble on ...

[SAGirl]

I totally agree short term it would cause us to take a step back but long term I think it would make us better. If we could steal Noel and give him two years off the bench behind Gasol while letting chip fix his shot he could be a starter along side LA and Leonard. That would be a real challenge for any team to match up against imo. Thoughts?

It really, really depends on whether PATFO (Pop and the Front Office-RC) consider the team in win now mode or they are taking a long term view. Trading Danny would take us out of immediate contender status IMO. The reason? Manu is on his retirement tour, and frankly ppl should be wishing at this point that he holds up for the season and reaches the post season in a better state than Tim did last season. Behind him is Simmons. I like the dude but he's a poor defender, he's fit to be a bench energy player, pushing the pace in transition, cutting etc, looking to score. The fact he doesn't defend well is a problem that makes him not a starter material. He's 27 entering the season, I think he's got limited potential from where he's at right now. He can play in the NBA, but he's not going to get a lot better.. What we see is probably about as good as it gets. He can probably limit his fouling by not reaching in (a huge problem for him was fouling) and make better decisions while he's on the court, but he's no defensive player. If you don't have Danny, Simmons starts and it will be horrible together with Tony.

Maybe Pop can develop Garino but he's going to have a learning curve similar to Danny's: at least 2 years till you can really trust him (didn't Danny spend his first season in the Cavs bench, then overseas and in dleague? yea like that.) And I don't know that Garino has the same feet as Danny. Danny guards short quick guards, point guards and stuff. Not sure Garino can do that. One would think Simmons with his athleticism could do it, but he doesn't have good defensive instincts and as much as some would tell us that requires no special talent, it does. Timing and instincts, anticipation, etc. Danny has them, Simmons does not.

I think Danny is really not a tradeable chip as long as the Spurs consider themselves as contenders for a championship. Now if they want to go on a mini rebuild, I guess anything goes. Including why not? Send out Manu to 76ers instead since they were crazy about signing him. (cue the trolls!!!!!!)

[SAGirl]

I obviously do not know what Pop has in mind for Kawhi, and I think it is terrific that Kawhi has improved every facet of his game - including his ball-handling skill. However, the last thing I would like to see is Kawhi become a ball-dominant second-coming of Kobe. In fact, I am not sure I liked the direction of the offense after last Christmas. I do not personally like iso-ball, and I believe putting the ball more and more in Kawhi's hands came at a cost. Kawhi was leading the league in 3-point FG % for the first half of the season. As he handled the ball more, his 3-point FG% slipped. I would like to see the Spurs move the ball more and not go the way of iso-ball. I like that brand of basketball. I also think it is a mistake to sacrifice Kawhi's dead-eye 3-point shooting for iso two-point baskets. Personally, I would like to see Kawhi scoring primarily on 3-point shots, alley-oops and other assisted plays going to the basket; next, on PnRs; and then on his own isos. I also believe that increasing Kawhi's ball handling responsibility will diminish his energy on the defensive end.

I think Kawhobe is where we are heading. What did you think when Kobe said Pop asked him to mentor Kawhi? I thought Pop wanted Kawhi to have a black mamba mentality with the ball. Also, I read an article (I will have to dig it up if it interests you) where Pop said that the player Kawhi reminded him the most of is Kobe. Kawhi can sometimes go through straight up Kawhobe phases too with tunnel vision included and all. I don't think Pop wants the tunnel vision, but he probably does want Kawhi to handle the ball a lot more, and call his own number when he needs to. Otherwise results like what we saw against OKC would occur. There are articles (would have to be dug up, but they are out there) about how in the last minutes of the 4th Q in some of the OKC games Kawhi didn't touch the ball a single time for 3 or 4 consecutive possessions by which time the games were over. Kawhi has been developed as an off the ball player initially in a system, but it's going to be increasingly difficult to find him open or to set him up for shots when he's the leading scorer, once the playoffs start. He has to develop as a playmaker and scorer outside of the system for the playoffs situations. This is somewhat the current claim that some still sustain that he's a system player.

It's an interesting debate and I am not in the interest of attacking Kawhi at all, but as much hate as Tony generates among the Kawhi fans, Tony is needed for that system and it's now malfunctioning. It's not the same situation as Kyle for example, who played a whole lot better without Manu. I can tell he likes the ball and can make plays for other ppl because he's a passer first. Kawhi? Not so much. He can look for his own shots Kobe style. Maybe that is where the Spurs are headed.

Edit: I will have to clarify that Kawhobe is where I think we are heading with the Spurs standing pat with their guard situation. Kawhobe is probably better than Tony to close out games quite frankly. LMA is not a playmaker. Danny is not a playmaker, and there is Pau but why put the ball in Pau's hands when Kawhi is the best player. We have to realize Iso TD/post up TD was claimed to be very boring back in his day. It is what it is. Spurs offense has to be tailored to their best player. I am not sure I will like it either, Kawhi has to become a better playmaker and that is something even Pop has stated when describing other players that "he doesn't know whether that talent can even be coached." I will probably enjoy watching the bench a lot more.

[dabom]

Kawhi LMA heavy ISO was because we the role players can't score. If they score at an acceptable clip, we don't need much ISOs. I see the idiot basketball player can't comprehend what's going on in their "own" team. .

Fathead can't score for . Garbage player. Ditch the Fathead.

[gambit1990]

Kawhobe

that alone shows how little you know about basketball.

[dabom]

that alone shows how little you know about basketball.

She really doesn't understand basketball but has an input on everything. Ironic right?

[YGWHI]

that alone shows how little you know about basketball.

Well, I'd like to see Kawhi with some Kobe "Lin,-get-the- -out-of-my-way" at ude ...

Of course, it's not the Spurs' way. Also, Kawhi doesn't want to be hated by his teammates. He's more Duncan-style than Kobe's, but I would still love to have Kawhobe on my team.

[dabom]

Well, I'd like to see Kawhi with some Kobe-get-the- -out-of-my-way at ude ...

Of course, it's not the Spurs way, Kawhi doesn't want to be hated by his teammates, and he's more Duncan-style than Kobe's, but I would still love to have one Kawhobe on my team.

We got a PorkE instead.

[YGWHI]

We got a PorkE instead.

Not sure if I should laugh or cry...

[dabom]

[Trueblood]

It really, really depends on whether PATFO (Pop and the Front Office-RC) consider the team in win now mode or they are taking a long term view. Trading Danny would take us out of immediate contender status IMO. The reason? Manu is on his retirement tour, and frankly ppl should be wishing at this point that he holds up for the season and reaches the post season in a better state than Tim did last season. Behind him is Simmons. I like the dude but he's a poor defender, he's fit to be a bench energy player, pushing the pace in transition, cutting etc, looking to score. The fact he doesn't defend well is a problem that makes him not a starter material. He's 27 entering the season, I think he's got limited potential from where he's at right now. He can play in the NBA, but he's not going to get a lot better.. What we see is probably about as good as it gets. He can probably limit his fouling by not reaching in (a huge problem for him was fouling) and make better decisions while he's on the court, but he's no defensive player. If you don't have Danny, Simmons starts and it will be horrible together with Tony.

Maybe Pop can develop Garino but he's going to have a learning curve similar to Danny's: at least 2 years till you can really trust him (didn't Danny spend his first season in the Cavs bench, then overseas and in dleague? yea like that.) And I don't know that Garino has the same feet as Danny. Danny guards short quick guards, point guards and stuff. Not sure Garino can do that. One would think Simmons with his athleticism could do it, but he doesn't have good defensive instincts and as much as some would tell us that requires no special talent, it does. Timing and instincts, anticipation, etc. Danny has them, Simmons does not.

I think Danny is really not a tradeable chip as long as the Spurs consider themselves as contenders for a championship. Now if they want to go on a mini rebuild, I guess anything goes. Including why not? Send out Manu to 76ers instead since they were crazy about signing him. (cue the trolls!!!!!!)

I agree that it's basically a win now move or a win later move. I am forever optimistic about the spurs but I have doubts about winning this year with GS and the Cavs playing at such a high level. I kinda feel like taking a step back for a few years may not be bad if it's better long term. Kawhi will still be in his prime, Murray will have time to develop and LA should still be hitting his jumper at a high rate. Combine that with a dominant force in the middle hitting his prime and i think we can make a run for 2-3 years. Add in LeBron will be a few years older and the salary cap and ego issues will catch up to GS and we would be in a really good spot for a run.

[gambit1990]

There’s a solid chance that the Sixers will trade Noel or/and center Jahlil Okafor this season.

per philly.com.

if the 6ers were fine with offering manu a large amount... maybe they'd be willing to take parker?

[SAGirl]

I agree that it's basically a win now move or a win later move. I am forever optimistic about the spurs but I have doubts about winning this year with GS and the Cavs playing at such a high level. I kinda feel like taking a step back for a few years may not be bad if it's better long term. Kawhi will still be in his prime, Murray will have time to develop and LA should still be hitting his jumper at a high rate. Combine that with a dominant force in the middle hitting his prime and i think we can make a run for 2-3 years. Add in LeBron will be a few years older and the salary cap and ego issues will catch up to GS and we would be in a really good spot for a run.

I get you. Several fans have argued for a mini rebuild too, some for a mini-tank (GSH was one, sasaint another, that I can recall at least). That's in the realm of judgment calls by RC. They are still trying to win a championship. They haven't raised the white flag. But we shall see how things are midseason and then next summer.

[Chinook]

The problem is that Noel is not a future player, and Okafor is a worse version of Gasol. I'd've loved to have Noel as the starting center, but he's not likely to become much better than that, and right now, he's nowhere near worth both Green and Mills. I know he's still young and should get better, but to what extent? Absolute best case would be Ibaka, and an Ibaka three years from now isn't worth Green, let alone Mills, LET ALONE factoring in the increased salary.

Okafor is a fine offensive player with a potential to get better, but he's not where the league is going. You don't trade to have a third post-orient perimeter player. And this ignores that by the time Okafor is in his prime, Kawhi will be quite a bit older and will have essentially wasted a few good years "hoping for the future".

They just don't make sense. Guys like Covington, Holmes and Grant are much more realistic targets who should be able to fill their roles just as well as Noel or Okafor fill theirs.

[SAGirl]

You emphasize the timing on guys careers Chinook and it's worth discussing. That thread someone posted of ESPN scouting on Spurs players emphasized to me the age of the team. Danny is 29, he's in win now mode. LMA is 31, that is also win right now territory. Kawhi is 25, he has time to compete several years, but he's really entering what should be some of the best years of his career right now. Spurs should do everything they can to take advantage of them. A lot of the rest of the team is very, very old which makes this team have a short shelf life b4 the Spurs have to reload and construct something different around Kawhi.

On the edge are several younger guys who could be among the guys to eventually surround Kawhi with in the Spurs of the future kind of thing. But these guys are in a different situation from Noel. As you point out Noel is still very young himself and potentially could still improve (specially bc bigs are known to continue to get a better feel for the game for several years and peak later than guards), but he will be expensive to keep this summer. The younger guys Spurs currently have developing for the Spurs' future are all very cheap at the moment and will remain so for the next couple of years. If one of them helps the team to such an extent that he commands a much higher salary in the coming years, that is to be decided at that time, but right now for the next couple of years, these guys are very cheap to keep and hopefully some can develop to more in the future. Noel will be expensive really soon at a point that he's still developing his game. Spurs have Milutinov too who they are maybe bringing in (again in a bargain rook contract) soon.

All of that matters. If they trade for Noel then they have to plan to pay him in the Summer and that means they likely aren't doing much more with the team at that time. (correct me if I am wrong, cap issues again are not my strength). Okafor has more time. I really don't have a strong opinion on him. He's definitely very young still and he wasn't placed in a position to be successful in Philly. I feel like Philly will want a big haul for him. (I don't think Mills is even in the picture, he's a FA this offseason. If I were Philly I wouldn't trade for Mills). It would be Danny, then maybe one of the rookies.

[SAGirl]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...ny_sense_.html

Noel definitely wants out of Philly. He's respectful in his statement about the franchise and specially about his teammates, but he sounds fed up.

after three years of watching his team tank, after years of wondering how he fits in, Noel said Sunday he needs for his current situation to change.
"I think it's just silly . . . this situation that we are in now with three starting centers," Noel said on the eve of the Sixers' media day. "With the departure of [former general manager and president] Sam Hinkie, I would have figured that management would be able to get something done this summer."

The Sixers declined to comment on the matter.

"I think something needs to happen," Noel said.
Noel said that he's not asking to be traded or demanding that the Sixers trade someone else. He just wants them to hurry up and do the inevitable.
"I feel like it definitely needs to be figured out," he said. "I think at the end of the day, again, you have three starting-caliber centers. And it's just not going to work to anybody's advantage having that on the same team. That's how I'm looking at it. I'm not opposed to anything, but things need to be situated."

Noel said he wasn't speaking negatively about the team's other starting-caliber centers, Embiid and Jahlil Okafor. Nor was he speaking for them.
"Don't get me wrong. We all get along great on the court and off the court," Noel said. "But at the end of the day, it's like having three starting quarterbacks. It doesn't make any sense."
However, he was adamant that his feeling would not affect his performance.
"I'm here to do my job and play as hard as I can play for the city of Philadelphia," Noel said. "I've always loved the fans from the jump. It's probably one of the realest cities in the country with just genuine passion and love for the sport."

Noel's name came up in trade talks with the Boston Celtics, Phoenix Suns, Atlanta Hawks, and Houston Rockets, according to sources. Another source said the Sixers were also in discussions with the Toronto Raptors and San Antonio Spurs.
Colangelo later denied that the team has been shopping the big men. He said that teams reached out to the Sixers about them.
"I know I was shopped," Noel said.
However, a source said that the Sixers turned down several offers for Noel.
Noel has experienced a lot of heartache during his tenure with the Sixers. He and Hollis Thompson are the only holdovers from the 2013-14 season. They compiled a 47-199 record over three seasons of tanking to acquire draft picks.
At this point in his career, Noel wants to be in a position to show what he can do. He wants to be on an established team.
"We've gone from zero and we are not at 100," Noel said. "We went from zero and things are still building here. . . . I think I sacrificed a lot. And at this point, there's really not too much that I'm capable of sacrificing."

[Mal]

I wonder what was Spurs` package

[MaNu4Tres]

The problem is that Noel is not a future player, and Okafor is a worse version of Gasol. I'd've loved to have Noel as the starting center, but he's not likely to become much better than that, and right now, he's nowhere near worth both Green and Mills. I know he's still young and should get better, but to what extent? Absolute best case would be Ibaka, and an Ibaka three years from now isn't worth Green, let alone Mills, LET ALONE factoring in the increased salary.

Okafor is a fine offensive player with a potential to get better, but he's not where the league is going. You don't trade to have a third post-orient perimeter player. And this ignores that by the time Okafor is in his prime, Kawhi will be quite a bit older and will have essentially wasted a few good years "hoping for the future".

They just don't make sense. Guys like Covington, Holmes and Grant are much more realistic targets who should be able to fill their roles just as well as Noel or Okafor fill theirs.

It would be stupid for the Spurs to trade the best defensive SG in the league for another big. Makes no sense to deplete your quality wing depth to add on another C after the Spurs just signed Gasol and Dedmon. Wings have much higher value these days and good ones are getting much harder to find. For all the warts Danny has, Spurs desperately need him with the way the league is perimieter oriented now -- especially on the defensive end.

[MaNu4Tres]

The guy I want from Philly is Covington. Have wanted him for over a year now. Covington was the best one on one defender in the league last year by advanced metrics.

I'd be willing to trade Kyle Anderson for him in an even swap.

[Chinook]

The guy I want from Philly is Covington. Have wanted him for over a year now. Covington was the best one on one defender in the league last year by advanced metrics.

I'd be willing to trade Kyle Anderson for him in an even swap.

I don't think Philly is wiling to trade for another point-combo-forward. But Covington is a fine target. Before the Lee signing, mine would've been Grant. Even now, I'd totally swap Simmons for him.

[BillMc]

It would be stupid for the Spurs to trade the best defensive SG in the league for another big. Makes no sense to deplete your quality wing depth to add on another C after the Spurs just signed Gasol and Dedmon. Wings have much higher value these days and good ones are getting much harder to find. For all the warts Danny has, Spurs desperately need him with the way the league is perimieter oriented now -- especially on the defensive end.

Agreed.