Good article detailing Danny's shooting woes but predicting bounce back this season.

[SAGirl]

[Chinook]

Obviously, it's mostly on him. But I don't think the article goes far enough into depth about how the change in the Spurs' offense affected him. At least subjectively, Green seemed to get most of his attempts as a result of kickouts from the post. That's completely different than getting them from PnR penetration. There's literally a different passing angle and timing.

For PnR, it's pretty much set timing from the moment the screener is set until the shooter gets the ball. The defense determines which pass (if any) is made, but they don't really determine when. For post kick-outs, the pass comes if the post player is doubled. That's a lot more random. It would be easy to see why an offense that changes the types of passes they make to a rhythm player could see that player become less effective.

I hope part of what he's practicing at the gym is how to play off Kawhi (and LMA, Lee and Pau when they get there). He and Parker used to have incredible chemistry. That needs to be the case with the others now that the focal points of the offense have shifted.

[TDomination]

Man I hope so. Since 2013, whenever Danny is on, the spurs are nearly unbeatable.

So if Danny can have a good season, it will do wonders for our first year sans Timmy.

[MaNu4Tres]

There's a lot wrong with this article tbh. Good effort, but I don't agree that this is a good article.

Green didn't get a lot more wide open opportunities. Sure he had higher percentage of them, but his volume went down immensely. In 14-15, in 81 games, Green was able to get off 457 attempts. Last year, in 79 games, he was able to get off 349 attempts. The opportunities were significantly lower, and a BIG reason why is because of the lack of an effective roller in the PNR that used to create so many looks for the weakside in rhythm three. I've talked about this ad nauseam and none of the people who write about the Spurs on twitter have brought it up. I've probably brought it up in 5 different threads over the summer.

Also, he's wrong when he says Gasol's pick and pop will create more looks for Green from three. Just look how David Wests' pick and pop action last year hurt the effective ball movement when the ball was forcefully swung to the weakside for contested/guarded 3's.

[jyra]

Just took a quick glimpse at Green's tracking stats:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201980/tracking/shots/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/20198...gular%20Season

Here's the side by side comparison of his open three point shots in the past two regular seasons (attempts per game and the corresponding percentage):

Season	14/15	15/16
Games played	81	79
Open (defender 4-6 ft) 3s	2.3 36.7%	1.6 30.4%
Wide Open (defender 6+ ft) 3s	2.3 52.5%	2.2 35.8%

You can see that the number of wide open shots barely changed while the amount of just open shots went down quite a bit (about 60 less open shots in total). By the way the number of contested shots went down too but not quite as much.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I found it interesting that Danny had Lasik surgery over the off season. Did he wear contacts last year?

[bklynspursfan]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team

[Chinook]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team

Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.

[GSH]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team

Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.

Danny rarely drives the ball except when he is forced to (late in the clock, and no other option), or when the defense breaks down and practically begs him to. He's rarely taking shots away from anyone else when he drives. He's taking the only/best shot available. The problem, as Brooklyn said, is that he is really ty at it. A one-dimensional player is much easier to defend, and it really helps a 3P shooter to be able to ball fake, duck under the man closing out, and drive for a closer shot. Besides getting a higher-percentage shot, it keeps the defenders honest. They can't close as hard if they know that the shooter will blow past them if they do. Danny would benefit tremendously from improving that part of his game, and so would the team.

The angles are important. A pass coming from the direction of the basket allows a 3P shooter to catch and instantly step into his shot. A pass coming from around the perimeter forces the shooter to turn and square up before taking the shot. One of the biggest problems (and one of my biggest pet peeves) is that the Spurs PG's, in particular, are sloppy with their passes. When a shooter has to lean to take the pass, it's so hard to bet a quality shot off. Defenders in the NBA close/recover much too fast for that.

Manu has always taken 3P shots from awkward angles, and while not squared up - and he made a remarkable percentage of them. But he was the exception to the rule, and as he's gotten older he misses more of those than he used to. Danny likes to pull up in transition and shoot the 3, and he's good at it - again, because he's moving directly toward the basket and can step right into his shot. When he has to turn and square up before shooting, he struggles a lot more. Tony, and to a lesser extent Patty, tend to over-penetrate and up their angles. A lot of the time, when they kick out to Danny, they have to make the pass wide to avoid getting it picked off. That forces Danny to lean or step to the side to take the pass. He may be WIDE open when the pass is made, but by the time he gathers it and squares up, the defender is able to affect the shot. That part isn't his fault. Just like it's not his fault when he takes the ball with 3 seconds left on the clock, and a defender closing on his 3P shot, and he is forced to try and drive instead of shooting.

[Chinook]

Green knowing how to drive better would be like DeAndre having a mid-range shot. Sure, it would be bad-ass if he could do it, but it helps him more individually than it would help the team as a whole. Teams forcing a third or fourth option to drive aren't doing anything to affect their spacing issues -- in fact, they're enhancing them. This isn't like forcing a poor shooter to shoot. It requires that Green's man not play off him, which gives everyone else more room to work.

Even if Danny were league average at driving, it would still be better for Kawhi or LMA to get a pass, especially considering that Danny's man is obviously not trying to help off him. Yes, he'd be a really good offensive player if he could drive and score and all that. But he has a good release that allows him to get off shots with moderate pressure or less. It's just not common for him to get the ball and also be in a position where driving is better than passing.

[SAGirl]

Obviously, it's mostly on him. But I don't think the article goes far enough into depth about how the change in the Spurs' offense affected him. At least subjectively, Green seemed to get most of his attempts as a result of kickouts from the post. That's completely different than getting them from PnR penetration. There's literally a different passing angle and timing.

For PnR, it's pretty much set timing from the moment the screener is set until the shooter gets the ball. The defense determines which pass (if any) is made, but they don't really determine when. For post kick-outs, the pass comes if the post player is doubled. That's a lot more random. It would be easy to see why an offense that changes the types of passes they make to a rhythm player could see that player become less effective.

I hope part of what he's practicing at the gym is how to play off Kawhi (and LMA, Lee and Pau when they get there). He and Parker used to have incredible chemistry. That needs to be the case with the others now that the focal points of the offense have shifted.

Good point. Not that I am a shooter or know anything about that but I have read elsewhere with other players that rhythm plays a big part of it. You will laugh at this but the Timberwolves coach would swear Zach Lavine got used to dribble pullups as a youngster and coming into the league he'd pass up on shots when he was wide open to dribble into a pull up shot reducing its efficiency. Coach would be exasperated asking him why he did that and he'd say he wasn't ready to shoot, he didn't feel like he was in rhythm. Kyle is another guy that I am sure he can probably shoot excellent in an empty gym but he played his whole life with the ball. He will shoot better on dribble pullups and on his fadeaways that on a set shot, sometimes passing shots he could have taken bc set 3 pt shooting from a corner was never in his life his thing. He'd go to established habits and things he would do I am sure got him in rhythm. Some of those habits have to be cleaned out specially from young guys coming from college but the point was about habits and what allows a guy to get a rhythm shot.

Anyways I deviated as I often do, what I found interest about the article was the author took the time to break down the spots and percentage of open shots Danny was getting. He is getting good shots but he wasn't used to shooting as you said kind of in a surprised state, and there was an event not discussed there in observing whether he was going to be closed out or not and deciding to drive. It was a factor early. Maybe later he stopped hesitating on his,shots but he was doing that early, like he wasn't ready to shoot. Once you doubt on whether to shoot or not that rhythm is not there. I hope he's getting that shooting swagger back. It's amazing Spurs won so many games with him and Tony sometimes not scoring much at all.

[bklynspursfan]

Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.

I'm not saying make it a regular thing, but it should be something he is capable of doing. Late in the clock, or nothing is happening in the offense, or something. He should just have it as something he can do in a hunch.

Green knowing how to drive better would be like DeAndre having a mid-range shot. Sure, it would be bad-ass if he could do it, but it helps him more individually than it would help the team as a whole. Teams forcing a third or fourth option to drive aren't doing anything to affect their spacing issues -- in fact, they're enhancing them. This isn't like forcing a poor shooter to shoot. It requires that Green's man not play off him, which gives everyone else more room to work.

Even if Danny were league average at driving, it would still be better for Kawhi or LMA to get a pass, especially considering that Danny's man is obviously not trying to help off him. Yes, he'd be a really good offensive player if he could drive and score and all that. But he has a good release that allows him to get off shots with moderate pressure or less. It's just not common for him to get the ball and also be in a position where driving is better than passing.

I would think a better comparison would be DeAndre having a couple different post moves. You expect a 7 footer to be able to post up, just as you would expect a guard be able to dribble and occasionally make something happen. Like Klay Thompson, you want him shooting the ball, but he is capable of putting the ball down and driving and dishing, or finishing in at the rim. Having multiple guys who can put the ball on the ground and make something happen is valuable. as GSH said, a 1 dimensional player is really easy to defend. If a guy can't go left on the dribble, you force them left. If a guy can't shoot free throws, you hack them.. if a guy can't shoot, you prevent the drive by backing off and daring them to shoot, etc... He needs to make guys pay for the way the close out on him or when he's got an open angle to the basket.

Now he doesn't have to drive to finish, maybe he is kicking it out to Kawhi/LMA, or maybe he's collapsing the defense and dumping the ball to Pau. But his ball handling in general is very poor, and for a guard, I think it's something he needs to seriously improve on.

[SAGirl]

There's a lot wrong with this article tbh. Good effort, but I don't agree that this is a good article.

Green didn't get a lot more wide open opportunities. Sure he had higher percentage of them, but his volume went down immensely. In 14-15, in 81 games, Green was able to get off 457 attempts. Last year, in 79 games, he was able to get off 349 attempts. The opportunities were significantly lower, and a BIG reason why is because of the lack of an effective roller in the PNR that used to create so many looks for the weakside in rhythm three. I've talked about this ad nauseam and none of the people who write about the Spurs on twitter have brought it up. I've probably brought it up in 5 different threads over the summer.

Also, he's wrong when he says Gasol's pick and pop will create more looks for Green from three. Just look how David Wests' pick and pop action last year hurt the effective ball movement when the ball was forcefully swung to the weakside for contested/guarded 3's.

Opportunities will probably remain lower but Danny passed up on shots,he could have taken to "drive" the whole thing is tied to each other with cascade effects.

Edit: but I have to agree in general with your points,on lack of an effective roller. Kyle was criticized from passing up on corner shots,but they weren't really wide open shots. The shots he passed up on he was being closed put bc no one has effectively sucked the defense in. I have looked up his highlights and his made corner shots were off effective penetration and he was wide open. I sure those are the shots he was told to take. Shots he passed up someone was coming in his direction. Specially in the bench corner 3s were not really open most of the time.

Danny has a different issue bc he got shots out of post ups and that's unlikely to change. Manu Ginobili is a guy who, plating off Tim I am guessing has been exposed to 3 point shooting out of a post up, Danny not that often. I do think for Danny a lot of it had to do with his rhythm, he stated himself it was chemistry which is similar.

[MaNu4Tres]

Opportunities will probably remain lower but Danny passed up on shots,he could have taken to "drive" the whole thing is tied to each other with cascade effects.

With more diving action from LA (started doing it in playoffs vs. OKC), Pau, Dedmon, Lee and Kyle ( he did it a lot in Summer League from the PF spot), Danny should see his attempts increase. The diving action from PnR is what opens up the offense on the weakside and its what makes passing a huge weapon. If the weakside is guarded by a balanced defender, swinging or passing the ball to the weakside is pointless and just chews up clock -- which is what happened often with 2nd unit last year when it mattered. They swung the ball but nothing would come out of it because the weakside defenders didn't have to move or rotate to protect an effective role man like Splitter or Dedmon.

Not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.

[SAGirl]

I found it interesting that Danny had Lasik surgery over the off season. Did he wear contacts last year?

I don't know but Kawhi's poor (for his standards) shooting in 14/15 was at least in part attributable to his,eyesight being clouded early in the season. Speculation, but I guess so.

[MaNu4Tres]

Danny has a different issue bc he got shots out of post ups and that's unlikely to change. Manu Ginobili is a guy who, plating off Tim I am guessing has been exposed to 3 point shooting out of a post up, Danny not that often. I do think for Danny a lot of it had to do with his rhythm, he stated himself it was chemistry which is similar.

I disagree. Even with the starters, post ups remains a small percentage of the offense (even though it increased last year). They ran a ton of PnR with Leonard as the ball handler with Parker in the corner opposed to Leonard in the corner like previous years. The simple dive action can create more opportunities for the weakside three. This is where Leonard has to get better. He has to get better with his passing out of the PnR and focus on making the right play or pass instead of just trying to score. However, last year he had no real choices because the only open pass that was open was to the Pick N pop guy in Aldridge or West. The other options on the weakside are guarded when the big pops for a long two.

If you go back and watch the OKC series, LMA had started diving much more than he did in the regular season. The problem was the bench with West being an exclusive pick and Pop guy and with Diaw losing all confidence in Pick and Pop three opportunities and opportunities as the secondary PG from passes to the Pn roll action. Spurs only had one effective diver and that was LA and he still popped more than dove-- even though he increased the amount of dives during the OKC series.

On top of that, Green sees minutes staggered with 2nd unit too, especially against the great teams -- when Pop tightens the rotation. When he plays minutes w/ Manu and 2nd unit, he'll see more opportunities having Dedmon rolling to the basket instead of having West popping out for his ball stopping 15-18 footer.

[SAGirl]

With more diving action from LA (started doing it in playoffs vs. OKC), Pau, Dedmon, Lee and Kyle ( he did it a lot in Summer League from the PF spot), Danny should see his attempts increase. The diving action from PnR is what opens up the offense on the weakside and its what makes passing a huge weapon. If the weakside is guarded by a balanced defender, swinging or passing the ball to the weakside is pointless and just chews up clock -- which is what happened often with 2nd unit last year when it mattered. They swung the ball but nothing would come out of it because the weakside defenders didn't have to move or rotate to protect an effective role man like Splitter or Dedmon.

Not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.

Have to agree. The bench had a lot of problems last season bc of what you stated. Somewhere else I argued they needed flashback super Manu on a nightly basis to cover up deficiencies. Just goes to show having "names" if they are miscast for their role doesn't a good system work. It's truly amazing they did as well as they did bc it was a super tough defensive team basically.

[SAGirl]

I disagree. Even with the starters, post ups remains a small percentage of the offense (even though it increased last year). They ran a ton of PnR with Leonard as the ball handler with Parker in the corner opposed to Leonard in the corner like previous years. The simple dive action can create more opportunities for the weakside three. This is where Leonard has to get better. He has to get better with his passing out of the PnR and focus on making the right play or pass instead of just trying to score. However, last year he had no real choices because the only open pass that was open was to the Pick N pop guy in Aldridge or West. The other options on the weakside are guarded when the big pops for a long two.

If you go back and watch the OKC series, LMA had started diving much more than he did in the regular season. The problem was the bench with West being an exclusive pick and Pop guy and with Diaw losing all confidence in Pick and Pop three opportunities and opportunities as the secondary PG from passes to the Pn roll action. Spurs only had one effective diver and that was LA and he still popped more than dove-- even though he increased the amount of dives during the OKC series.

On top of that, Green sees minutes staggered with 2nd unit too, especially against the great teams -- when Pop tightens the rotation. When he plays minutes w/ Manu and 2nd unit, he'll see more opportunities having Dedmon rolling to the basket instead of having West popping out for his ball stopping 15-18 footer.

I can't recall such details but the offense through Kawhi and LMA involved a lot of post ups to my recollection. However later in the season Pop started to place the ball in Kawhi's hands more in PnR or PnP with LMA. It still involved a lot of ballhandling by Tony so it was mixed at best. I feel like there wasn't enough involvement of Kawhi in PnR but my memory admittedly is cloudy bc it was one offense in the beginning and it changed later.

[skulls138]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

[Chinook]

I would think a better comparison would be DeAndre having a couple different post moves.

Nah, that's closer to asking Green to run a PnR, which he already does more than people credit him for. Still isn't good at it, though.

1 dimensional player is really easy to defend.

This comes up a couple of times a year. Where I think you and the others are wrong is that Green job is not to score. Literally, it's to be defended. Jordan is the same way. It's not hard to stop either if you commit your defense to taking away their strengths, but doing that for a player who's rarely higher than a third option and is sometimes as low as a fifth option is bad for your defense. That teams gameplan for Danny or put their best perimeter defender on him rather than Kawhi for some games is a testament to respect for his skill around the league. If he's sucking a man out of the defense, he's doing his job, because that's a man who won't double or show or rotate.

With Jordan, he could be neutralized if the defense just left Paul open or didn't contest shots at the rim. He would only score once or twice a game. But obviously, that'd never happen. With Danny, you don't ignore the PnR (ideally) or neglect to double just so you can remove Green's dimension. You're going to have to rotate down, and then he's going to burn you (at least previously). Green being a driver would make it much harder to shut him down, but him using more possessions on long-twos or average shots at the rim doesn't make sense when the option is always there to just pass the ball out to reset. If the shot clock is winding down, he can just shoot the contested three. Over his career, he isn't too bad in those situations anyway.

[Chinook]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

driving=what people want Green to do more of

diving=what people want LMA to do more of

Yeah, Aldridge is a good PnR target. He is tall with long arms, athleticism and finishing ability. As I have said many times, I think he and the team would be better served with him being a center who dove more (like a more agile version of SNT Gasol) and starting a PF who could shoot and handle the ball a bit. Alas, he's a PF for at least another season. Anyways, him diving would help diversify the PnR/PnP game, and with Pau being able to do both as well, it would give the Spurs more angles to use on the attack.

[UZER]

I think the Duncan LMA combo never really clicked. Someone was always occupying the others space which threw off all of the teams spacing.

I think the Danny will get better, cleaner looks with the Pau LMA combo since both guys require attention even 18ft from the basket, unlike Duncan.

[YGWHI]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

Don't get this. Kawhi should go back to being more of a 3-point shooter to get everyone involved...that means Kawhi would have the ball less in his hands and he would spot-up more.

But he isn't Danny or Marco, he isn't a true three-point shooter, it's pretty obvious he won't maintain his 3FG% of last season.

So this team will spot-up more a non-true-shooter and they will take the ball out of the team leading scorer's hands...This doesn't sound good, there many reasons why the teams give the ball to their best players and main scorers.

I just hope Pop continues involving him in more P&R situations or even isos plays, instead of looking him parking in the corner again, because the only way Kawhi can help the Spurs' offense is staying aggressive, looking to attack and score.

[dabom]

Don't get this. Kawhi should go back to being more of a 3-point shooter to get everyone involved...But that means Kawhi would have the ball less in his hands and he would spot-up more.

But he isn't Danny or Marco, he isn't a true three-point shooter, it's pretty obvious he won't maintain his 3FG% of last season.

So this team will spot-up more a non-true-shooter and they will take the ball out of the hands of the team leading scorer...This doesn't sound good, there many reasons why the teams give the ball to their best players and main scorers.

I just hope Pop continues involving him in more P&R situations or even isos plays, instead of looking him parking in the corner again, because the only way Kawhi can help the Spurs' offense is staying aggressive, looking to attack and score.

He wants to give Fathead and Porker more on ball "dutties".

[dabom]

I always said Danny was getting the same open looks he got like always. And the end of the year agrees with me. I also said Danny needs to focus on the three and stop thinking about the drive. This is what ed with his head. He isn't the most mentally tough Spurs. Always Hot or Cold with big droughts. The coaching staff wanted to see what he could do with more offensive moves and it backfired on the Spurs. His game is what it is. Lets not with it. Let him just be the ultimate roll player.