I agree.
I can see a Dedmon, Lee, Bertans, Manu, Mills lineup off the bench being used very often this year. Spurs need Bertans' shooting in the line up from the SF or PF position -- it's an elite weapon. Anderson doesn't have an elite weapon that Spurs have to have in the line up. He's avg at best in different areas -- not one part of his game is great.
Anderson will not be benched when your cancer is Lee playing out of position, nor will they be better in that lineup, but this is something at will stir the pot all season. Lee plays like a center but is being put in PF spots. It won't work, period. He can be a microball center if you want but he's not a PF period. Bertans is no SF either.
He had a strong pre-season last season fir the Celtics, then when the real games started he struggled, his efficiency was cut by real defenders and he complicated matters fir the Celtics perimeter players. He was out of the rotation by Dec and the team took off without him. I foresee the same for the Spurs in my crystal ball (sarcasm), unless yes used like the Mavs as a small ball center, only if Dedmon struggles and I hope he doesn't.
On another note it's been mentioned that Pop and LMA were having a good time, but I'm not sure if people saw Pop go into the crowd. He was going around the court shaking hands and thanking the fans. Pretty cool and good spirited. Lee came off the court to take a selfie with a kid. Good vibes all around.
Lee has been a PF his whole career. That's the position he defends best.
PF's don't have to be shooters.
Here's where you are wrong, ....
There's no required or strict skill sets for each different position, it's about where they fit offensively and defensively and who they defend. There's point guards in the NBA who are essentially spot up shooters on O but they defend PGs ( Delly w/ Cavs, Fisher w/ Lakers, Chalmers w/ Heat, Mills with Spurs), there's centers in the league who can shoot from 3 or long two's in pick and Pops (Hawes, Marc Gasol, Horford, Cousins). There's SF's or SG's in the league that facilitate the offense for their teams and play like how a "PG" should play. (LeBron, Kobe, Harden, Kawhi, Durant... to name a few).
If teams stay traditional and don't go small, then Dedmon, Lee, Bertans, Manu and Mills makes a lot of sense. IMO
Anderson is closer to a PF than Bertans. Bertans is quicker, more athletic (not saying much) and can space the floor better with his elite shooting. Bertans is like a Dunleavy w/ better shooting but Dunleavy is slightly more athletic and better with the ball.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 10-19-2016 at 01:30 PM.
Not to mention he's much more decisive offensively, the ball actually moves or gets put in the basket when Bertans gets it. Anderson spends two seconds deciding what he's going to do then he either passes it off, or tries to take his man off the dribble (very slooowly).
And Kyle is the one who's supposed to be a natural point guard.
Bertans hasn't been defending well perimeter players.... Anyways I don't want to get in a discussion about Bertans or Anderson bc we disagree fundamentally and we won't convince each other. Bertans best defensive moments were against Lee bc he's not a threat to shoot. He's very easy to defend if he doesn't have an advantage created by others and Bertans was able to bother him with his length, but he's been cooked defending perimeter players every time I have watched him against other teams so whatever you say about that has no value over what I have seen.
But whatever, I don't want to get on this about Bertans or Anderson. This is about Lee.
I said my piece already. He doesn't have a PF game in today's game and the team will struggle offensively when he's out there. What he does doesn't help others and it doesn't help himself either. He's so easy to defend and help off of bc he doesn't shoot. It wouldn't surprise me if Dedmon himself is made worse playing next to him too in fact bc they both want to do the same thing and get in each others way.
Again I said my piece and I feel pretty confident about this one bc it's not just based on one scrimmage. This goes back to Lee's play the past couple of seasons and his history already. It's based on things beyond this season. He's a tweener center and if he's played like that he can do things offensively but that's it. Playing 2 non shooting bigs in today's NBA is cancerous. That's what Lee's past couple of season and my own observations so far have shown and you won't change my mind on this,one.
You apparently didn't read anything I posted. You just regurgitated the same post that I quoted.
Lee actually does a lot for the spacing or wide open weakside opportunities when he's the PnR diver. Sure if he's just standing there like in a meaningless intersquad scrimmage, he's going to ruin spacing. But in real games, he won't be implemented as a just stand there guy. He's showed in the preseason by being involved in a lot of PNRs -- finishing around the basket or catching the pass as a roller and swinging it to the weakside when the weakside defense rotates over to prevent the roll around the basket. I've seen it so far this preseason in games more meaningful than an inter-squad scrimmage.
Playing two non shooting bigs is cancerous? It's about how they are implemented! Spurs won from 2012-2014 starting two bigs who couldn't shoot. Sure Duncan hit the occasional mid range jumper but him and Splitter were diving in PnR's 80%-90% of the time as the big on the weakside would be in the dunker spot. I've elaborated on this before but you just don't want to acknowledge it. Either that, or you simply don't get it.
They were separated for entire series too and things opened up for them when they played Diaw. TIim is a HoF player too, and it wasn't easy even for him to play like that when it mattered. Again Lee is very easy to defend one on one. I don't want to regurgitate more of the same I guess bc at this point. I have seen and know enough on my own of Lee's past stops and how he affects others shots and himself to know,he needs space himself and opportunities opened up by others and will still be a negative overall even when he has so called good games. If he's not giving you efficiency then it's Celtics 2015.
Lee wasn't a negative with Dallas, not even defensively. He and Dedmon can totally work together if the team can play a complex offense where both guys know how to get open off each other. That's even more true considering how bigs are rotated. But yes, the ideal second unit doesn't have him on it. The issue is that there's a really good probability (higher than chance), that the bench isn't great and needs Lee's offense more than Dedmon's defense or Bertans' spacing.
Diaw dove a lot as well though.
He was the secondary play maker as the diver catching the ball and making plays around the basket in 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 scenarios in the paint and he'd either A) Finish inside, B) make dump off passes to Splitter or TD who were in the dunker spot, or C) make the pass to the weakside for the wide open three. When Diaw wasn't the one setting screens, he sometimes was in the Dunker spot and sometimes at the three point line on the weakside.
My point though was that you can play two bigs who can't shoot, it's about how they're implemented. Pop already has the blueprint -- it's been used already with Splitter and Duncan and it was used even with Diaw/Duncan or Diaw/Splitter.
That's a poor comparison bc these two do not have the talent of Diaw, let alone Duncan. But they for sure ain't Diaw. Diaw could play with Dedmon very well. He's a versatile player that doesn't score from just one spot and is dangerous in many ways. Lee is not. Again maybe Lee used to be great and used to have a jump shot and be more versatile but right now he's not, length bothers him and you can defend him one on one easily and he can complicate life for others bc he can just do one thing well and needs the ideal conditions for that, space provided by others and advantages created by others.
He's easy to defend one on one and easy to help up off bottom line. No one was helping off Diaw without eventually paying for it. He's dangerous and despite him passing up shots if you don't respect his shot and help up off him he can hurt you. He was at times dared to shoot but he could get hot and shoot if that's what you wanted him to do. Lee is not going to burn anyone if dared to shoot and if it gets to that it's bc the offense is being stuck up and made difficult for everyone else
If you look it up in NBA.com/stats the team was a negative with him in the mavs, even with crazy efficiency and ideal conditions for himself as he had. The team was better with others than with him in the lineup. I will post it up from laptop later if you can't find it. I am in a table right now and it's difficult to really annoying to do that, but I am not pulling this our of my ass.
It's okay. You just don't get it.
I never compared players, I was simply stating the way Spurs implemented the PNR offense with having a diver and a big in the dunker spot. ( Having two bigs who can't shoot in the game together).
You're complaining about how Lee can't spread the floor with shooting and how he can't create double teams in one on one situations -- which is stupid, IMO. No offense, because he's not going to be utilized as such.
Spurs aren't going to feature him in one on one situations. They're also not going to feature him as a stand there guy. Pop has a brain, he's going to implement Lee as a PNR guy only -- like he did Duncan and Splitter. Same goes for Dedmon. They aren't one on one players, and they're not shooters so they're not going to just stand there.
Bottom Line!!
No offense, but you sound like the idiots that first complained at potential spacing problems when some of us wanted Tiago to start with Duncan.
To be fair, there were issues with Duncan and Splitter offensively that the team never got past. That's why they never finished a season as co-starters. They were just so good defensively that it worked out. Lee and Dedmon don't have that going for them. They'd play next to each other because there isn't a better option, not because it makes sense for the team.
Lol, it's true, it's true.
Not even starting, just even playing with Duncan was proclaimed as something insane and indefensible.
They finished the 13', 14' and 15' season as starters. Tiago didn't start vs. Miami because they went small with Bosh at the 5 and LeBron/ Mike Miller/ Shane Battier/ Lewis at the PF.
You're right, there isn't a better option for the team, so it makes sense to play them together, right?
My whole argument is that they CAN play together and spacing won't be as big of an issue as SAGIRL is implying. SAGIRL was trying to justify the reasoning by pointing to Lees' inability to be an effective one on one player or shooter. Which is stupid.
It's like saying Spurs shouldn't play Green because he can't create or can't create double teams in one on one situations. Or saying Spurs shouldn't play Aldridge because he can't create off the dribble from the perimeter.
SAGirl trying to go at a top poster.
So funny to me. She's not very knowledgeable of the game tbh...
Sounds an awful lot like them not finishing the season as co-starters to me. You're right that I did forget that he started against the Clips, and that's on me. But I almost forget that he even played in that series.
I didn't say there wasn't a better option. I said that that's the only reason why they would play together. Definitely think they are competing with Bertans and Simmons for minutes right now. Because Lee/Dedmon doesn't have the defensive upside that Tim/Tiago had, I don't think there's the same pressure to go in that direction. That might end up being how they play it, but even so, I think this is going to be a season-long point of observation.You're right, there isn't a better option for the team, so it makes sense to play them together, right?
It's not the best argument, indeed. And calling Lee a cancer is harsh. As people may remember, I was a fan of his signing even though I do think he'll be mostly fighting with Dedmon for time by the end of the season. There's just no upside to having and Anderson/Lee/Dedmon front court, and replacing Anderson with Bertans merely trades more confident shooting for worse perimeter defense. If they don't trust another guard or forward to play with Mills, Manu and Anderson, I think they need to be looking for ways to acquire another player, preferably a three-and-D combo-forward like James Johnson.My whole argument is that they CAN play together and spacing won't be as big of an issue as SAGIRL is implying. SAGIRL was trying to justify the reasoning by pointing to Lees' inability to be an effective one on one player or shooter. Which is stupid.
It's more like saying the Spurs shouldn't play Green and Mills as the only guards. Those two can definitely play together for stretches to disprove an absolute assertion of that. But there is still logic to the protest.It's like saying Spurs shouldn't play Green because he can't create or can't create double teams in one on one situations. Or saying Spurs shouldn't play Aldridge because he can't create off the dribble from the perimeter.
She deserves to be the top poster. Definitely SAGirl is one of the more knowledgeable posters in ST! I can't say the same about you. I don't even recall you even posting!SAGirl trying to go at a top poster.
So funny to me. She's not very knowledgeable of the game tbh...
Here it comes...
BBRef has on/offs now: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...02/on-off/2016
They bear out that Lee was positive in most stats but negative slightly in ORtg. And he wasn't great defensively but helped on the boards. Those stats are sort of weird, though, as they account for time when Lee wasn't even on the team.
Bertans is pretty impressive. Offensively, one area that he needs improvement on is attacking the rim after a close out. In the scrimmage he attacked the rim hoping to make a play when there was nothing there. I don't think he's too familiar with that situation and other team mates aren't anticipating what he's going to do.
I like his length too. He seems long enough to at least be a bit of a bother at PF. Anderson by contrast is a bit small to be at PF.
Oh... one other comment. I like that Pau is taking those 3 point shots. I hope to see Aldridge do the same.
It makes everyone in the starting 5 capable of hitting the 3. Spurs will need that when they are desperate.
Damn..not sure if SAgirl just recenty started watching basketball..its ok girl, you're good people but you need to dig deeper into how offenses work.
Lee just like Deandre or other good roll guys provide spacing and weakside offense...the deandre is not valuable offensively in a system that relies heavily on PnRs i nothing but short pf comical
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