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ElNono going deep.
There's simply no evidence of any of this. There's actually the contrary: Patty closing out Portland in the playoffs, doing a fine job against OKC the same season, breaking down high-hedge teams like the Heat in 2014 off the dribble. Even against the Clippers a season later. If you want to knock on Patty's PG skills is that he's more of a shooter than a penetrator. He's not a rim finisher, he's a shooting specialist.
The whole pressure thing is a cool narrative, but it's not really grounded in reality. The worst case pressure situations are either inbounds with very little time left or a "surprise" full court pressure for a couple of possessions (and the element of surprise is the only thing here, because once teams know it's coming, it's incredibly easy to defeat it, since it relies on gambling on an early double-team).
When Tony had the jets going, it made complete sense to go for the higher percentage shot under the rim. Also, when we were a very heavy P&R team, especially the 1-2 with Tim, there was also big value there.
But with the new team makeup, which is heavy iso-postup, that stuff is not there. Let me say one more time this is not Tony's fault either. It's just difficult to envision what his use would be in such a lineup considering his remaining skillset.
ElNono going deep.
If anything, this discussion proves that the "Tony plays heroball too much" narrative was always false. He has taken the proverbial step back and is playing even worse.
At this point it seems like choosing between Tony and Patty to start is like having to choose between Hillary and Trump for president. Pop is just going to hold his nose and pick one like the rest of us.
I think we should not give up on Tony just yet.... it's not like he will need a wheel chair anytime soon.....
With Patty emerging could be the fuel Tony needs to better himself..... let's wait at least another month or 2 before we start talking about trades.
To be fair to Tony, his role has changed and it's very small at this point and he has to be evaluated within a role. He's not heroballing, which was a needed adjustment and he has reduced at least the dribble, dribble with no point, a frustrating aspect in the past. He is adjusting.
The problem is that taking away what he used to be good at, leaves almost nothing behind. He's not going to be impactful on defense, he's not going to be a great threat from 3 as he doesn't take nearly enough shots from 3, or from a variety of spots, and he doesn't have the great court vision either. So his role and impact is very marginal and can be performed by someone who may give something more, like better passing, or better shooting, or better defense. Not saying Nico is there right now, bc he's a rook who needs a period of adjustment to compete at this level, but a player like him has the potential to surpass Tony eventually in this role (not even talking about Mills here, who is obviously producing more) bc he's a better passer and might be a better volume 3 pt shooter, as we saw him in preseason get hot from 3, from the wings and the top, spots Tony doesn't even like to spot or shoot from. When that becomes a possibility, that younger players at the end of benches have skillsets that fit better with what Kawhi and Pop are doing in the SL, then one wonders about Tony. He's not adding much at this point bc the SL has changed around him. ElNono did a good job of summarizing the problem, the makeup of the team has changed, the offense in the SL has changed, and shooters, defenders, passers, cutters are all a better fit with Kawhi and LMA, and Tony is none of those. Patty is at least a much better shooter and off the ball player and has improved his defense to a scrappy level that one thiks should be possible for Tony too, as he's small but still quick enough, but he's not there with his activity on defense.
I think Pop will work things out with just playing Patty more minutes and closing out games with more regularity. Nico will start to get chances to play as well. Pop will want to work him in.
Yah for some reason PATFO doesn't go along with the ST narrative (and neither does the national media for the most part). They don't talk all day about OKC G6 in 2014 and conveniently forget about Dallas G7. They don't watch 2 gifs of Pop telling Parker to give the ball to Kawhi and act like it's the only time Pop has ever yelled at one of his players. They don't compare plus/minus stats of starters against bench players without adjusting. They don't ignore he fact that Parker has shot better from 3 than Patty the last few seasons. And they don't act like Parker had some bad season in 2014 when he was the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team and led them in scoring and assists throughout the regular season and playoffs.
Parker started last year and the Spurs won the most games in the history of the franchise. This year they're undefeated. ST called for Parker to take a back seat and he did. Granted, we haven't made a deep playoff run since he took a back seat, but it's not like we can't. Once Patty has a season where he shows he can distribute like Parker or even penetrate anywhere close to as good, he might start. But in reality it's all kind of a long shot considering he's not a great point guard. He is a good SG though.
Patty will likely go through a cold spell eventually, tbh, that's almost a given with any shooter, and I expect people pumping fists about it and revisit this thread.
I would frankly love to revisit this later down the season not because of that, but because Tony found his niche with the current team's makeup. And by that, I don't mean a hot spell of 3-5 games where his jumper is going, but really understanding where our bread is buttered, how we want to move the ball depending on who's out there, etc. I want him to do well, tbh, because he ain't going anywhere, and so the Spurs need him to do well.
Even with the second unit, in nights where Manu might not play, he can give you solid contributions, and people shouldn't wave that off either. It's not beneath him and I think he would be a better fit with the ball movement there.
You will see it grounded in reality if you start Patty at point with Green for a season. I guarantee that. Again, it's not about doing it for short stretches. It's about doing it game after game through a long season and into the playoffs. Honestly I hate to fall back on this but I have experience it. It is extraordinarily tiring physically and mentally. It's a draining position. ( And fn pop would have to lay off Patty if he throws him in game after game)Having to over the quickest guy on the other team and get things set up or even see ahead when traps are coming etc... its debilitating. Tony can't handle most of it now. I would say I feel more like we must sacrifice Tony because we don't need to kill Patty.
And there is no evidence that I have seen that he can handle this job for the long haul. Pop clearly does not see it.And then once again, you don't do this with a player that thrives at the 2. It's just not smart. If Patty does start he better have a guy like Manu next to him. I wish Kyle could work it with Patty. He has the PG attributes but he is so horribly slow.
But We knew all this before the season started. I think it's going to be a tough playoff season. Hope for the correct match up.
Last edited by pgardn; 10-31-2016 at 07:59 PM.
The bolded might work but better have a shooter with Tony. Manu and Patty both being 3 point threats is huge for opening the floor. Tony has never developed a 3 that is a real threat. If KL gets injured then you might see more experimentation with Tony.
Last edited by pgardn; 10-31-2016 at 08:03 PM.
Sorry, but lack of evidence isn't an argument in itself. ie: Kawhi never started for an NBA team until, well, he did. These experiments happen all the time, and not always work out, but that it hasn't been tried doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Also, let me be the first in line to say Patty has his own drawbacks, especially defensively, but compared vis-a-vis with current Parker, and taking into consideration the makeup of the SL, I don't think such an experiment would be out of the question. Frankly, if it wouldn't be the Spurs, and the loyalty factor wouldn't be there, probably neither Tony or Manu would still be playing with the team.
Well, you have Bertrans, Forbes... The point is that the bench is much more of a fast pace, pick & roll unit. That's closer to the mold that suits Tony better. Even Manu manages to penetrate and score here or there, I'm sure Tony could take advantage too.
The Spurs are gonna absolutely pay Patty Mills. Finding a serviceable PG in this league isn't that difficult, but Patty puts the Spurs in contention. Don't get me wrong; Patty doesn't put any team in contention, but he gets the Spurs there. He's quick, heady, can find shooters, and can find his own shot. There are a bunch of PGs in the league who can do that, but none can do it at the pay rate the Spurs could get for Patty and none of them have the experience with Pop and the Spurs' system that he does. He's clearly learned the nuanced ways in which Tony has found points in this offense and understands how to use them along with his own. Re-signing Patty and maintaining cap room for another high-quality free agent would be amazing, so don't think the FO hasn't thought of it. Patty will resign because he's dedicated to Pop and his system; because of his production and value at price, the FO will resign him.
LOCK IT IN: Patty Mills signs a 4-year w/ SA.
It's early, but if he puts together a complete season playing at the level he's played in the first 4 games, the Spurs might end up getting priced out.
This pgardn still thinks that bringing the ball up the court is some super complex skillset that MVPaddy doesn't have.
he only has 8 secs to get past halfcourt, idk if Patty can do it
Perry Mason's dumb ass tooThis pgardn still thinks that bringing the ball up the court is some super complex skillset that MVPaddy doesn't have.
Why are people so stuck with ty labels?
What a poor understanding of the game of basketball...
Kawhi-Manu-Patty-Parker all share the responsibility of bringing the ball up. In the last 4 games, Kawhi has played the PG Position in the last 5 minutes..making Patty a perfect compliment because he can shoot.
Heck the spurs can use a Ginobili-Kawhi-Green lineup...
I'm not sold on patty starting because hes such a deadly weapon with the bench but he deserves minutes priority over parker at this point.
Some damn good analysis in this thread (for a change). Tony is obviously struggling to do what he's always done against the first-team defensive units in the league. Logically, it seems like his experience and talent would still make him dangerous against any second unit defense. But...
Suppose Pop moves Patty to the starting lineup. Now you've got three guys who love to stand out on the perimeter and swoop into the paint (Tony, Many, and Simmons). And all three of them are coming off the bench.
Ah, . Most of you can see this coming. How do you fit all three of those guys onto a bench? I don't see how there's room for three guys who have that particular skill set, and personality. To me, it looks like if you put Patty in the SL, you really limit the minutes for one of those three guys - probably Manu or Simmons. So the question I have is whether moving Tony to the bench would create so much overlap on the bench that you would be wasting somebody's talents? Seems to me that making that move would basically call for a roster move of some kind.
You play your best players. Pop has always been a about moves that he could have done years earlier. Patty has been with the Spurs for quite some time now.
It's his time now. Worry about the bench later cause all those guys ain't gonna all play in the Playoffs. I don't want the first unit getting destroyed and we have to play from behind every single ing game. How about we blow them up with our best unit for a change. I can already see this playing out in the Playoffs.
Yep but functional observation is.
The observations take place in the film room, preseason and practice with all coaches present and discussing. They are not always correct but I trust coaches over board QBs like we are.
In a weird way I have less confidence in Parker than you do. I think Manu is better at penetrating just because he is physically stronger. But both tire quickly. Patty will have some bad games as his hyper footwork overplay defensive feet get him off balance and will fail him when people body him. It's happened too many times in the past. He gets up on his toes and is easy to move.
Unlike others here I would love to see Patty do well as he seems to be the most team oriented player we have as far as rooting for everyone. I just don't want the guy ruined in the wrong spot. I feel he might also have confidence issues. He can go very bad quickly.
I look at Manu as a player/coach/heart. They guy is still the most compe ive person on our team. He was down on the ground grabbing, kicking, flailing after a lose ball just last night.... we got young guys who need to see that. He has not had a fantastic start, but with roster spots open and corporate knowlege we need him. Do you know if he has any designs on coaching later?
There's no easy solution, IMO... it's not as simple as swap guy A with guy B, tbh... but one thing I thought was interesting is that I think Pop isn't sold on either unit completely yet. He's a guy that would normally start Lapro if Tony is resting, just to keep the 2nd unit intact, but he didn't this time around. Might be nothing, but I think he's more willing to experiment, especially early in the season, and there's less "continuity" here and more "experimenting". Might be something to keep an eye on.
So much garbage about nothing. Giving sagirl a run for her money.
I for one like that Pop seems to be more willing to experiment this season (see my post above).
Manu has said he doesn't want to coach, and I have not heard any updates on that. But you never know, tbh... it's clear he loves the game. He might just be involved from a different spot. Not going to see him probably 'til February, but I'll try to lobby for another season if he's healthy
I don't want the first unit getting destroyed and we have to play from behind every single ing game. How about we blow them up with our best unit for a change. I can already see this playing out in the Playoffs.
No, that's a good point. I think about it a lot. I wish we could have seen Patty with a complete first team. But even if LMA had been there, Danny would still have been out. My point, though, is that with Manu facilitating AND driving, plus Simmons constantly probing the paint, Tony's style of running the point becomes pretty superfluous. Not that he isn't still good enough to be a second-team PG, but that the second unit already has enough of what he does.
If they are going to move Patty to the SL, the smart move would probably be to trade Tony. But that's not going to happen. So you wind up with a struggle for minutes, touches, shots, etc. Dedmon and Lee both look capable of scoring from down low, so the last thing you need is an overflow of driving guards bringing more defenders into the paint.
I don't know. It looks to me like the balance of this team was tuned to having Tony start. If he's not up to it (and he may not be), it doesn't work so well, IMO.
Edit: BTW - why do you always have to put in the laughing emojis? You make some decent points. When you make fun of anyone who has a different opinion, it just pisses people off and starts more arguments than discussions.
It will also be interesting to see how the first unit morphs on offense with Danny out there, and whether he's hitting or not. I think if he really starts hitting a lot, it actually can be a conduit to make Tony look better.
The starters play more then the bench guys. And even more in the Playoffs. For all intensive purposes, improving the starting 5 should be the priority.
Starting Patty now would go a long ways into having great synergy. Much more than doing it 1 year from now.
And role players don't play great under pressure. They would probably do way better if they didn't have to CARRY the ing starting unit. Maybe it's just me that thinks that.
Pop needs to show confidence on Patty too. He is your best point guard.
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