Spurs @ Wizards (17/82) (6 PM Central/12:00 GMT) Sponsored By TARP Games

[Splits]

It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).

Huh? That's not how it works, this isn't fatbol.

[ElNono]

Huh? That's not how it works, this isn't fatbol.

Two-way contracts and 16th and 17th roster spots are coming though: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources...224612785.html

But it's true that they would need to cut a player this season (which would likely be Forbes or Lapro, IMO) if the wanted to clear out a spot.

[Hoops Czar]

So no plan B? No "huge contributor"? crofl

That quote only makes sense in the fact that the Spurs has a renowned culture of professionalism, unselfishness, etc that's well known around the league, thanks largely in part to guys like Timmy and Manu, and I suspect Pop wants to keep around for at least one more year to make sure the youngsters, of which this team has many, can see first hand how that works.

The only reason the Spurs would've preferred to keep him as an assistant coach is if they needed an open roster spot. I know you've been trying to understand how salaries and the cap works in the NBA for the past 5+ years, but no, the Spurs couldn't have used that money to sign anybody other than Manu or Bonner (or Boban, although it's debatable the Spurs wanted to commit that much money to him on a multi-year deal). This one year deal works great for the Spurs. It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).

I'm pretty sure if some team offered Matt Bonner $14M, the Spurs wouldn't have matched the offer even though he shares the same corporate knowledge, professionalism and unselfishness that Ginobili does. However, in Bonner's case, they chose a free roster spot over paying the vet minimum to bring him back. I know you've been trying understand how advanced stats work for the last 5+ years but, Ginobili has the 4th highest usg rating on the team, ahead of both Parker and Mills. At 19 mpg, that kind of usage rating doesn't suggest he's just here to flash off his professionalism and his so called unselfishness. Can we cut the crap already? You don't triple your original offer just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge part of the team's success OR you don't have a plan "B". They signed Ginobili out of necessity and Manu knew this and he in turn, used his corporate knowledge of the salary cap to get the Spurs to triple their original offer.

I don't pretend to know how the salary cap works but, I've learned to quote people that do.

Manu didn't cost the Spurs $14 Million in cap space, but he did cost them $5.6 Million. I think when you factor in the timing of the deals, the Spurs could have offered another player about $7 Million to play for them. I don't know who would take that in this market, though.

That quote has everything to do with keeping around the tradition that made this team great for a long time. There's nothing there about numbers, minutes, production. No, I haven't expected the Spurs to rely on Manu in the playoffs since at least 2015, frankly, when Pop actually benched him for the first time closing out playoff games. End of an era right there. And it makes sense, he's 39. His 2014 run was as unexpected as it was incredible, frankly. Last year they even brought in insurance in Kevin Martin, because the kids weren't growing up fast enough and Pop already knew Manu isn't a difference maker on a consistent basis anymore.

Pop actually benched Manu in the postseason because he was gassed for carrying a bunch of bench scrubs all season long. Like I've been saying for the last three years, the Spurs need to take some of the pressure off Ginobili in the regular season or he'll be spent by the time the postseason rolls around. You keep crying that the Spurs didn't have a plan "B" for Parker but, they've never had one for Ginobili either. Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Kevin Martin wasn't Ginobili insurance. The Spurs were trying to bolster their offense by bringing in a guy who could stick the three and get to the free throw line. He couldn't run an offense to save his life and hadn't even been remotely good since the 2014 season.

As far as Tony, he's the starting PG and really has no compe ion for it. And it makes sense, Manu didn't have compe ion for his spot and neither did Tim when Pop thought they were THE guys at their positions. And all of them took heat (maybe Timmy less so, rightfully) when things didn't go their way. I don't disagree that Tony has a ton of mileage, but the Spurs knew that too, and really, there's clearly no transition in place right now. Maybe the plan was George Hill, but they had to abort in order to get Kawhi. Maybe this year that they drafted a PG, there's a hint something might be happening there, but I fully expect the Spurs to trust Tony with that starting spot until at least this deal is over, and maybe afterwards too. Tim never really lost his starting spot. Maybe Tony doesn't want to end his career coming off the bench. We do know he's going to end his career as a Spur though.

First of all, the Spurs have been looking for a backup SG to replace some of Manu's production for the last few seasons and that's really Simmons right now. Kyle makes relative sense only if they want to make him a PG and play Patty as SG. That's the only youngsters that survived from last season, so one would have to assume they're "projects" to an extent. Murray is also likely going to be a project going forward. Bertrans I think it's more of a guy that will stick around if health allows. He's more seasoned.

Second, Patty Mills always played Point Guard. With Portland, with Australia and now with the Spurs. He's not a traditional PG if you will, but in that sense, Tony never has been either. They're scorers (in different ways) and that's apparently how Pop prefers them.

Third, the guard situation will probably merit some consideration in the offseason. I know Manu won't say it yet, but I do think it's likely this is his last year (although, from a capspace situation I don't think it would matter if he wanted to come back, as they could sign him with over the cap money like this season). Patty is going to be a free agent, and I expect some team to really throw some heavy money at him, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. In a sense, I think that's why they have a QO on Lapro, as insurance, in case they feel like chasing some other FA with that money.

And lastly, the Spurs blew their cash in LMA, Kawhi and this season Gasol. The rest of the players with multi-year deals are on what any other team would deem reasonable deals (even Tony's deal, looking at how the cap increased, looks reasonable. Danny's deal is a bargain, tbh). So the Spurs need to make do with that they can scrape. They've done relatively well, I'd say, considering they've not had a top 10 pick in more than a decade.

First of all, there's clearly no transition in place for Manu either. Jonathan Simmons? Kyle Anderson? Those two aren't solutions to a problem, they're part of the problem that warrants a solution. While I don't agree, I'm not surprised the Spurs overpaid Ginobili to come back for one more season. Otherwise, It would be death by a thousand cuts., literally. A side note on George Hill, he was traded because the Spurs couldn't transition him into a pg. He wasn't a good fit next to Parker and he was blocked by Manu off the bench. It's funny how nearly everyone wanted George Hill gone before he was eventually traded but, now everyone wants him back.

Secondly, the Spurs did bring in C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette as possible back up plans for Parker but they didn't pan out.

Thirdly, Patty Mills was listed as a pg for team Australia but make no mistake, Dellavedova ran the offense. Patty can't run an NBA offense for a playoff caliber team. If he could, he'd be the Spurs defacto back up plan for Parker. Also, had he been able to run the offense properly, he would have been the guy to take some of the added pressure off Ginobili during the regular season over the past two seasons. He couldn't. Patty provides instant offense off the bench when his shot is dropping but not much else.

Lastly, I have no sauces like 60% of Spurstalk but, I believe Duncan was semi forced into retirement with the addition of Pau Gasol. If Pau opted in to the final year of his deal in Chicago, I think Tim comes back for another year. But you know what they say.... Better to leave a year early than a year too late. That should actually be posted in the Spurs locker room, tbh.

[ElNono]

I'm pretty sure if some team offered Matt Bonner $14M, the Spurs wouldn't have matched the offer even though he shares the same corporate knowledge, professionalism and unselfishness that Ginobili does. However, in Bonner's case, they chose a free roster spot over paying the vet minimum to bring him back. I know you've been trying understand how advanced stats work for the last 5+ years but, Ginobili has the 4th highest usg rating on the team, ahead of both Parker and Mills. At 19 mpg, that kind of usage rating doesn't suggest he's just here to flash off his professionalism and his so called unselfishness. Can we cut the crap already? You don't triple your original offer just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge part of the team's success OR you don't have a plan "B". They signed Ginobili out of necessity and Manu knew this and he in turn, used his corporate knowledge of the salary cap to get the Spurs to triple their original offer.
I don't pretend to know how the salary cap works but, I've learned to quote people that do.

I can't really take you seriously when you try to compare Manu to Bonner when it comes to what both have meant to this franchise, no offense to Matt, tbh...

He ranked #10 on the team in USG % last playoffs, well below even Boris Diaw and West, even Simmons and Kevin Martin, which is exactly what I've been telling you. The Spurs simply have gone away from him in the playoffs, I don't know why would anybody would think it will be different this season. The regular season doesn't matter, it's just burning minutes and trying to figure out who can contribute or not in the big dance.

Pop actually benched Manu in the postseason because he was gassed for carrying a bunch of bench scrubs all season long. Like I've been saying for the last three years, the Spurs need to take some of the pressure off Ginobili in the regular season or he'll be spent by the time the postseason rolls around. You keep crying that the Spurs didn't have a plan "B" for Parker but, they've never had one for Ginobili either. Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Kevin Martin wasn't Ginobili insurance. The Spurs were trying to bolster their offense by bringing in a guy who could stick the three and get to the free throw line. He couldn't run an offense to save his life and hadn't even been remotely good since the 2014 season.

He benched him because he's not a difference maker anymore. He's going to maybe have a game or two where things go his way and his shot is falling, but it's a game to game thing, at his age, he doesn't have the same tools he had when he was younger. He can't just drive and finish at will anymore. Some games he'll look fine to great, some games he'll look 39. That's why the Spurs have been trying to build up Simms and brought in a backup plan in Kevin Martin last season (and don't forget Andre Miller too, another ball handler). The Spurs already have a starter SG in Danny, who does his job and fits well in what the starting lineup is trying to do. So yeah, the Spurs did try to bring in a plan B (and arguably a plan C), within the money they have. They're looking to replace a backup SG, not a starting player.

First of all, there's clearly no transition in place for Manu either. Jonathan Simmons? Kyle Anderson? Those two aren't solutions to a problem, they're part of the problem that warrants a solution. While I don't agree, I'm not surprised the Spurs overpaid Ginobili to come back for one more season. Otherwise, It would be death by a thousand cuts., literally. A side note on George Hill, he was traded because the Spurs couldn't transition him into a pg. He wasn't a good fit next to Parker and he was blocked by Manu off the bench. It's funny how nearly everyone wanted George Hill gone before he was eventually traded but, now everyone wants him back.

Secondly, the Spurs did bring in C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette as possible back up plans for Parker but they didn't pan out.

Thirdly, Patty Mills was listed as a pg for team Australia but make no mistake, Dellavedova ran the offense. Patty can't run an NBA offense for a playoff caliber team. If he could, he'd be the Spurs defacto back up plan for Parker. Also, had he been able to run the offense properly, he would have been the guy to take some of the added pressure off Ginobili during the regular season over the past two seasons. He couldn't. Patty provides instant offense off the bench when his shot is dropping but not much else.

Lastly, I have no sauces like 60% of Spurstalk but, I believe Duncan was semi forced into retirement with the addition of Pau Gasol. If Pau opted in to the final year of his deal in Chicago, I think Tim comes back for another year. But you know what they say.... Better to leave a year early than a year too late. That should actually be posted in the Spurs locker room, tbh.

All I'm saying is Patty always played PG, the claim that the Spurs "tried to make Patty a PG" is simply bogus. He's always been a PG. Maybe not in the mold or with the abilities you like, but he's always been a PG.

Hill was just the price to pay to get Kawhi. In hindsight, I think it was well worth it. It's easy to say "why don't the Spurs pull a Dubs and build a Superteam?", but the Dubs sucked for many years. Quite a bit of their talent came from draft picks that pan out (Curry #7, Klay #11, Barnes #7, etc). It's hard to be successful AND rebuild at the same time, especially for a small market team. Actually, the fact that we have that kind of successful culture that Tim, Manu, Pop, etc put together was a draw for some FAs to come sign for us (Finley, LMA to an extent, etc).

Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this is easy.

[Hoops Czar]

I can't really take you seriously when you try to compare Manu to Bonner when it comes to what both have meant to this franchise, no offense to Matt, tbh...

He ranked #10 on the team in USG % last playoffs, well below even Boris Diaw and West, even Simmons and Kevin Martin, which is exactly what I've been telling you. The Spurs simply have gone away from him in the playoffs, I don't know why would anybody would think it will be different this season. The regular season doesn't matter, it's just burning minutes and trying to figure out who can contribute or not in the big dance.

He benched him because he's not a difference maker anymore. He's going to maybe have a game or two where things go his way and his shot is falling, but it's a game to game thing, at his age, he doesn't have the same tools he had when he was younger. He can't just drive and finish at will anymore. Some games he'll look fine to great, some games he'll look 39. That's why the Spurs have been trying to build up Simms and brought in a backup plan in Kevin Martin last season (and don't forget Andre Miller too, another ball handler). The Spurs already have a starter SG in Danny, who does his job and fits well in what the starting lineup is trying to do. So yeah, the Spurs did try to bring in a plan B (and arguably a plan C), within the money they have. They're looking to replace a backup SG, not a starting player.

Right you are niglet. However, we're not talking about past accomplishments, we're talking about professionalism and unselfishness unless you're gonna move the goalposts again. Is Matt Bonner selfish and unprofessional? Can't he be a $14M mentor too? I could have brought up the other B-word (Bowen) but again, he was done as a player too but, he probably would have been a great mentor/assistant coach for the youngsters. There's no doubt that the Spurs are still relying pretty heavily on Ginobili's production coming off the bench. He doesn't have to put up the gaudy numbers like in the past but, he does have to run the offense because Simmons, KA and Mills can't.

Yes, he was #10 in usg% during last year's playoffs but, he was #3 in usg% during the regular season. In 2014-15, he was 2nd in usg% behind Tony Parker during the regular season and 3rd in usg% in the postseason. It tells me that the Spurs are running him into the ground during the regular season and he has nothing left to give in the postseason. Even at age 39, the Spurs are running him out there as the defacto back up pg when he should playing the shooting guard position. If only Patty could do something that resembles running an NBA offense.

He was absolutely a difference maker during the regular season. The bench was tops in the league and at times, carried the starters. He had the second highest assist % (23.3) and was 1st in steal % (3.0). Manu was the engine that ignited the second unit. He was playing lights out before his testicular injury and played well once he returned. I'm not sure why you brought up Danny Green but, the Spurs aren't trying to replace a prototypical sg, they're trying to replace a ball handler that can actually run the offense. Those types of players don't just fall from the sky. The guys you mentioned (Simmons, KA, Kevin Martin) weren't/aren't adept at running the offense and Andre Miller was older than Ginobili. If you could morph Jonathan Simmons and Kyle Anderson into one player, you might get something that resembles a poor man's Ginobili.

All I'm saying is Patty always played PG, the claim that the Spurs "tried to make Patty a PG" is simply bogus. He's always been a PG. Maybe not in the mold or with the abilities you like, but he's always been a PG.

I don't want to get caught up in semantic. The listing is meaningless when you can't do the one thing required of all point guards which is direct the team's offense.

Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this is easy.

Let's see, should we draft Tim Duncan or Keith Van Horn??? Damn, this ain't easy

[ElNono]

Right you are niglet. However, we're not talking about past accomplishments, we're talking about professionalism and unselfishness unless you're gonna move the goalposts again. Is Matt Bonner selfish and unprofessional? Can't he be a $14M mentor too? I could have brought up the other B-word (Bowen) but again, he was done as a player too but, he probably would have been a great mentor/assistant coach for the youngsters. There's no doubt that the Spurs are still relying pretty heavily on Ginobili's production coming off the bench. He doesn't have to put up the gaudy numbers like in the past but, he does have to run the offense because Simmons, KA and Mills can't.

Yes, he was #10 in usg% during last year's playoffs but, he was #3 in usg% during the regular season. In 2014-15, he was 2nd in usg% behind Tony Parker during the regular season and 3rd in usg% in the postseason. It tells me that the Spurs are running him into the ground during the regular season and he has nothing left to give in the postseason. Even at age 39, the Spurs are running him out there as the defacto back up pg when he should playing the shooting guard position. If only Patty could do something that resembles running an NBA offense.

He was absolutely a difference maker during the regular season. The bench was tops in the league and at times, carried the starters. He had the second highest assist % (23.3) and was 1st in steal % (3.0). Manu was the engine that ignited the second unit. He was playing lights out before his testicular injury and played well once he returned. I'm not sure why you brought up Danny Green but, the Spurs aren't trying to replace a prototypical sg, they're trying to replace a ball handler that can actually run the offense. Those types of players don't just fall from the sky. The guys you mentioned (Simmons, KA, Kevin Martin) weren't/aren't adept at running the offense and Andre Miller was older than Ginobili. If you could morph Jonathan Simmons and Kyle Anderson into one player, you might get something that resembles a poor man's Ginobili.

There was no big 4 with Matt Bonner, come on son. Matty was great in that he didn't play and he shut the up. I wouldn't put it past Pop to retire his jersey, tbh, but you know what I'm talking about.

If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.

The ballhandler thing is overrated anyways, we're talking running a pick and roll here, a highly choreographed play there. It's more practice than anything, that's what the regular season is for.
I wouldn't want Manu to go ISO on anything at this point, even end of quarters. I want Simms and Kyle to pick up the slack, realistically, that's the Spurs best option right if they want to get far at this point, tbh....
What Pop really wants is a guy (like Beli did for us in '14) that played well off the ball and gave us some consistent scoring. He was a treat if left open, teams respected him, whether he sucked on D or not. Simms can be that guy, so can Kyle, I think. It's just disheartening they're nowhere near there yet.

I don't want to get caught up in semantic. The listing is meaningless when you can't do the one thing required of all point guards which is direct the team's offense.

Tony is no floor general either if we're going to go that route. I mean, Tony is primarily a scorer. Pop always liked guys like that, tbh... he's just a seasoned guy now, he knows how to pick his spots.

Let's see, should we draft Tim Duncan or Keith Van Horn??? Damn, this ain't easy

You might want to ask Portland about det one...

[skulls138]

Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this is easy.

The posts will be exactly the same, just different players. People just love to hate, its like crack.

[SAGirl]

There was no big 4 with Matt Bonner, come on son. Matty was great in that he didn't play and he shut the up. I wouldn't put it past Pop to retire his jersey, tbh, but you know what I'm talking about.

If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.

You have to tell Pop that. Sometimes I don't think Pop has a grasp for his HoF vets limitations. I will say this, I think Pop has built up a contigency. At least I suspect that is what that is and we shall see in the playoffs if I was right on that su ion or not. I think he intends to bolster the bench with Kawhi when the time comes in the playoffs that he needs to have a starter play with the bench bc they are struggling. I suspect (and hope) that he won't do what he did in the Thunder series and leave them without a dominant player to bail out situations if they need it. Not that Kawhi will come off the bench but his minutes will be adjusted and rotated so that he helps the bench out if they need it.

The ballhandler thing is overrated anyways, we're talking running a pick and roll here, a highly choreographed play there. It's more practice than anything, that's what the regular season is for. I wouldn't want Manu to go ISO on anything at this point, even end of quarters. I want Simms and Kyle to pick up the slack, realistically, that's the Spurs best option right if they want to get far at this point, tbh....
What Pop really wants is a guy (like Beli did for us in '14) that played well off the ball and gave us some consistent scoring. He was a treat if left open, teams respected him, whether he sucked on D or not. Simms can be that guy, so can Kyle, I think. It's just disheartening they're nowhere near there yet.

I have seen Pop training Patty. I think he's the successor to Manu as a bench leader (thus why I see some priority in re-signing him, but that is another thread). Pop has started to give PnR opportunities to Simmons too, and Kyle to a much lesser degree (he has played a lot less with the bench truth be told). Simms has made some great reads in the PnR, the pass to a cutting Kyle I saw in a highlight video was superb and showed great court awareness and vision. He's just not that consistent with that stuff, specially on the PnR reads... but I have seen him improve overall. Kyle has started to play off the ball better (the Pistons game) and he's active, he sets screens or cuts, he's been moving more aggressively, with purpose. That sequence with Simmons involved good timing on that cut by Kyle, and great vision by Simms. Things like that are encouraging.

Ppl are nitpicky here, I think Mills is a fine backup PG, great even.

It looks to me like the guy with the Marco Belinelli sized balls is Bertans, but to alleviate Manu's pressure in the regular season is going to require a group effort, which is fine since several guys need to grow up... even in roles in Patty's case.

It's just going to be up and down with them at times. I agree with you, I think Pop needs to phase Manu out gradually, no B2B, if they don't need the 20 minutes and can spare him for 5 minutes do that. The point differential doesn't matter as much as developing the bench matters right now. Pop just didn't have much trust in all these guys to start and has been pushing them game by game and making adjustments. It's a process. I think when they start rolling, Pop will be able to afford to rest Manu more (at least I am hoping bc it's still early in the season that is the case).

[SAGirl]

The posts will be exactly the same, just different players. People just love to hate, its like crack.

Absolutely the truth.

[ElNono]

You have to tell Pop that. Sometimes I don't think Pop has a grasp for his HoF vets limitations. I will say this, I think Pop has built up a contigency. At least I suspect that is what that is and we shall see in the playoffs if I was right on that su ion or not. I think he intends to bolster the bench with Kawhi when the time comes in the playoffs that he needs to have a starter play with the bench bc they are struggling. I suspect (and hope) that he won't do what he did in the Thunder series and leave them without a dominant player to bail out situations if they need it. Not that Kawhi will come off the bench but his minutes will be adjusted and rotated so that he helps the bench out if they need it.

Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.

[SAGirl]

Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.

No, not yet. That is why you have veterans. I guess once guys reach a certain level you can ask for consistency... developing roleplayers and young guys are going to struggle at times. Just as a point of comparison it took Kawhi a long time to become a consistent scorer, developing something new each season and the system had to change and be reshaped to suit his talent. He always brought other things, his rebounding, defense, shooting, etc... but consistent double digit scoring required the marriage of skillset and system tailored to him.

For the bench, you can ask Lee to be consistent since his skillset suits the bench very well, rolling to the basket and he's a veteran, he knows his game and his strengths... and of Mills, who is a veteran shooter adding playmaking to his skillset, you can ask for consistency. Changes in lineups affect chemistry a lot, guys in and out of the rotation find it very difficult to attain a rhythm and chemistry with others. Matt Bonner notwithstanding, Matt did spend a lot of years with this team. Guys at the end of the bench are not Matt Bonner, they are still developing themselves and don't have the chemistry built up for years or know the system that well.

Then you have to look at guys current level of development. I think Dedmon has to bring his defensive hustle, rebounds etc on a nightly basis and he was doing that... but he is going to be up and down offensively and we already know he struggles finishing at the rim at times... Simmons I guess you can ask for consistency with energy plays in transition and pushing the pace, he does that nightly, but scoring off the ball is tricky for him bc he's not a sniper, and he's much better with the ball than without it bc of it. He does set screens for shooters and cuts... but he's not going to be scoring in a consistent fashion like that. I hope he keeps progressing. I haven't watched his last few games so I will withhold anything further about him as I may be way off base. His original task was just being solid, once he reaches a level that Pop is comfortable with, I think being consistent is the next step. He's not there yet. Pop gave an early season interview where he said Simmons is still a work in progress... so there you have it. I am sure he's trying to be consistent but it's a struggle right now.

Bertans one can expect to not pass up shots and hit them at a good enough rate. That is his skillset, but the rest of his game at this level is probably a work in progress as well.

For the bench, they don't have much of an iden y bc of so much roster turnover, and you can only ask consistency and continuity of your vets. Then you add the layer of guys just needing to have chemistry to time their cuts, their screens, etc... Thus I understand Pop going to Manu to start the season and I understand the vital role Lee has played as well.

Kyle has 100 threads about him and I truly don't want to make this about him at all. He doesn't have a set role and it's impossible to ask for consistency from someone who is still struggling with his own game as well. Criticism is warranted as he hasn't been playing that well, but it is early and he really has played little with the bench.

Everyone else is too raw, young, rookie, still developing, maybe not that young but new to the league nevertheless (Lapro) with rough areas in their games that they need to smooth over (Murray) and will struggle just smoothing them over.

I think with time they will collectively be better. The veterans are likely to still carry the biggest burden unless someone grows up through the season.. but that is just it: "through the season"...

[Hoops Czar]

We should put a bow on this and agree to disagree which is fine by me. There be a game tonight. However, I want to point out just a couple things.

If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.

Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.

For these reasons alone, the Spurs had to pay $14M to bring back Ginobili for another season. Neither Simmons or Anderson have proven anything at the NBA level so why would the Spurs with championship aspiration, put their le hopes in the hands of two guys that have struggled mightily beyond D-league compe ion, figuratively speaking of course? I'm not suggesting that a championship resolve will be determined by a couple of unproven bench commodities but, depth is important and neither of them to this point can bring to the table what Manu potentially can on a nightly basis. Fear of the unknown and lack of production from Ginobili's understudies is why the Spurs were almost forced to keep him around for another year.

Ginobili's #'s have dropped precipitously from last year's and I can't help but think it probably has a lot to do with playing international basketball over the summer. Not having the Summer off to recover from last season is the biggest reason Ginobili's overall production has taken such a steep dive. And don't think the bench isn't feeling it. The bench depth hasn't been this poor since the 2011 season. There's some serious potential coming off the bench with players like Bertrans, Dedmon, Simmons and sorry ElNono, I just can't say his name but like you said, consistency is still an issue. For me, the playoffs are more important than the regular season so I wouldn't play Ginobili more than two days a week or give him a couple of weeks off to rest here and there to keep his body as fresh as possible for the postseason.

Tony is no floor general either if we're going to go that route. I mean, Tony is primarily a scorer. Pop always liked guys like that, tbh... he's just a seasoned guy now, he knows how to pick his spots.

You can be both a floor general and a 'shoot first' point guard. Pre-2014 Parker was very adept at getting into the paint and causing defenses to collapse. He could knife through double teams with his speed and quickness and finish at the basket with ease. Even when he wasn't making his shot, he had the ability to pass out of the collapsing defenses to find the open shooters. He was a perennial top 5 paint scorer in the league. Opoonents actually set up their defenses to to try to stop/slow Tony down. Patty Mills doesn't demand that kind of attention and I don't see him as a floor general. Patty Mills is primarily a perimeter jump shooter/3-point assassin. When he's not hitting his shot though, he's a liability on the court. Oh yeah, occasionally he'll eye a sleeping defender and cut to the basket for a lay up but that's not his game. I'm not saying he can't run the point in a pinch but, for an entire season and beyond, the Spurs are going to end up paying for it. Yeah, maybe I'm selling him short but up until this point, he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Hey, but the good new is I don't delete my posts so feel free to bump this thread when Mills turns into CP3 2.0.

[TheGreatYacht]

Someone make a game thread before you know who, makes one....

[ElNono]

We should put a bow on this and agree to disagree which is fine by me. There be a game tonight. However, I want to point out just a couple things.

That's fine. I'll just add a few things, feel free to respond or not...

For these reasons alone, the Spurs had to pay $14M to bring back Ginobili for another season. Neither Simmons or Anderson have proven anything at the NBA level so why would the Spurs with championship aspiration, put their le hopes in the hands of two guys that have struggled mightily beyond D-league compe ion, figuratively speaking of course? I'm not suggesting that a championship resolve will be determined by a couple of unproven bench commodities but, depth is important and neither of them to this point can bring to the table what Manu potentially can on a nightly basis. Fear of the unknown and lack of production from Ginobili's understudies is why the Spurs were almost forced to keep him around for another year.

Ginobili's #'s have dropped precipitously from last year's and I can't help but think it probably has a lot to do with playing international basketball over the summer. Not having the Summer off to recover from last season is the biggest reason Ginobili's overall production has taken such a steep dive. And don't think the bench isn't feeling it. The bench depth hasn't been this poor since the 2011 season. There's some serious potential coming off the bench with players like Bertrans, Dedmon, Simmons and sorry ElNono, I just can't say his name but like you said, consistency is still an issue. For me, the playoffs are more important than the regular season so I wouldn't play Ginobili more than two days a week or give him a couple of weeks off to rest here and there to keep his body as fresh as possible for the postseason.

Those reasons are hindsight now, but the only thing the Spurs could've brought in was a $5m player if they decided not to bring Manu back (or Manu retired). That was the value of his cap hold, and what could've potentially been cleared up in capspace to sign another guy. It's not a lot of money and not very good talent is or was available for that kind of money, as Chinook and GSH already pointed out.

Realistically, if Manu retired, that's who we would be going with (Simms/Kyle). That was the idea anyways, IMO. The Spurs didn't really have big contracts to make trades work either. Danny and Patty are on very reasonable deals, the bulk of the rest of the money is going to LMA, Kawhi and Pau.

You can be both a floor general and a 'shoot first' point guard. Pre-2014 Parker was very adept at getting into the paint and causing defenses to collapse. He could knife through double teams with his speed and quickness and finish at the basket with ease. Even when he wasn't making his shot, he had the ability to pass out of the collapsing defenses to find the open shooters. He was a perennial top 5 paint scorer in the league. Opoonents actually set up their defenses to to try to stop/slow Tony down. Patty Mills doesn't demand that kind of attention and I don't see him as a floor general. Patty Mills is primarily a perimeter jump shooter/3-point assassin. When he's not hitting his shot though, he's a liability on the court. Oh yeah, occasionally he'll eye a sleeping defender and cut to the basket for a lay up but that's not his game. I'm not saying he can't run the point in a pinch but, for an entire season and beyond, the Spurs are going to end up paying for it. Yeah, maybe I'm selling him short but up until this point, he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Hey, but the good new is I don't delete my posts so feel free to bump this thread when Mills turns into CP3 2.0.

The lack of penetration is something we definitely need, but you don't need to be a floor general for that. I think Simms is a guy that could do that if his handles improve somewhat. But the Spurs might just have to look somewhere else.
It really all depends on how they want to run the offense. If we're going to primarily stick with a starting lineup that does ISO over and over again, it might just not matter.