Why Trump's Education Pick Scares Unions/US Students Slip Further Behind in Math/Sci

[baseline bum]

I feel exactly the opposite, especially with mechanics, but possibly not with E&M.

I have tutored some kids of older guys I work with, and when I have shown them how the foundations of physics can be explained so much better using calculus, they start to better understand the airy-fairy calculus that has little to no utility, except for good thought problems. Slopes and areas that have actual PHYSICAL MEANING has been very useful, so I use physics as a starting point when I have been asked to help out. Then they can go wander off into math world after they get an understanding of what they are doing. In fact, I got in trouble with one of the student's teachers when they just starting to learn calculus because I showed him the power rule, and he was supposed to go through the longer method before deferring to the much easier power rule shortcut. I showed him the long way, but he used the power rule to make sure he was correct.

Interestingly though, a lot of the modern physics that is difficult is pursued because the math says this is how it should be given these certain constraints. Experimental physics types then go looking for an experimental set up to try and determine if what the math says should exist really does exist.

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

[Wild Cobra]

What?

The schools have lowered educational time of the basics, and increased their social engineering in the classrooms.

[Wild Cobra]

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

It starts in the lower grades. K-12 is doing very poorly in the states compared to 50 years ago. We have steadily gotten worse over time in the teaching of math, English, social studies, and other basic knowledge skills. These foundation skills are rather weak in the majority of students entering collage vs. decades back.

[pgardn]

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

Im talking HS kids in AP classes. They are in Calculus and have already taken Algebra based physics. The Calculus textbooks they bring me have some physics problems to help understand calculus.

And no it's not a chicken egg argument. I just want it to start intuitively. Otherwise it's very easy to forget. You have to have some basic model that makes sense. And the fact that more complex physics falls back on math is just the truth. That's the difference between theoretical physicists and experimental physicists. Someone has an idea but has not a clue how to possibly turn it into testable experiment. Sometimes new technologies come out of this. It's quite cool I think.

[pgardn]

In places like Hong Kong, Shanghai, South Korea, and Vietnam, fewer than 5 percent of 15-year-old students performed below the basic-proficiency level in reading, mathematics and science. But, in the United States, 12 percent—half a million students—fell below the same level in all three subjects. The performance of the average student in the U.S. falls below the OECD average for all 64 countries in its survey, and far below the average for the major industrial countries. The proportion of our students who score below the OECD basic score is also well above the average for the major industrial countries. Equally troubling, the proportion of our students who score in the upper ranges of the OECD spectrum is also well below the average.

Some argue that the U.S.’s lagging behind has nothing to do with our schools: The U.S. has a much higher proportion of disadvantaged poor and minority students than higher-performing countries. But the data show that 37 countries outperform the U.S. in the degree to which socioeconomic status predicts low achievement. Both Vietnam and Latvia have far smaller percentages of low-performing students than the U.S. If it is poverty that accounts for the U.S.’s high proportion of low-performing students, it is hard to explain how these two countries are doing better than the United States. Vietnam’s average income, adjusted for purchasing power, stands at just one-tenth of the U.S. average, Latvia’s at less than one half.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education...rences/471564/

You have pointed out an economic problem, not a school problem. The best public HS in the US beat the out of Asian countries, especially in science. And there is a very basic reason; we do really good experiments in good HS. Many of the Asian countries keep with the rote stuff and it kills them. That's why they come over here eventually. This is a very common complaint about a fairly ubiquitous Asian education.

And the best public HS go back to economics.

Also don't kid yourself with these stats. If you think Vietnamese children are sitting in nice classroom with a pretty little teacher in front of them all listening intently... Nope. Take a look in the vast rural areas. In HK, it might be doable. Can't say much about S. Korea.

Bash the US, but do it legitimately.

[pgardn]

It starts in the lower grades. K-12 is doing very poorly in the states compared to 50 years ago. We have steadily gotten worse over time in the teaching of math, English, social studies, and other basic knowledge skills. These foundation skills are rather weak in the majority of students entering collage vs. decades back.

Its better than it was for my Dad living in Carrizo Springs, Texas. Much, Much better.

Rural areas and poor urban areas are not good. Wealthier districts, where the parents trust the teachers, are phenomenal. Much better than anything I saw. Education goes through cycles because the politicians foist some ridiculous goals on them. The good school districts don't even listen to the rules. There are some very good school districts csoring average on their crappy state test while excelling on more relevant national and world wide tests.

[Wild Cobra]

Its better than it was for my Dad living in Carrizo Springs, Texas. Much, Much better.

Rural areas and poor urban areas are not good. Wealthier districts, where the parents trust the teachers, are phenomenal. Much better than anything I saw. Education goes through cycles because the politicians foist some ridiculous goals on them. The good school districts don't even listen to the rules. There are some very good school districts csoring average on their crappy state test while excelling on more relevant national and world wide tests.

Cherry pick much?

A city with more than half the population of the entire county of under 10,000...

How much smaller was the population those years back?

You can always find statistical outliers. In general, our education system is really bad compared to 50 years ago.

[pgardn]

Cherry pick much?

A city with more than half the population of the entire county of under 10,000...

How much smaller was the population those years back?

You can always find statistical outliers. In general, our education system is really bad compared to 50 years ago.

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

[AaronY]

What?

Republicans think the reason more educated people tend to be liberal is because the schools brainwash them basically.


Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...climate-denial http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-on-earth.html


or that there is a small segment of them in Texas trying to teach kids that the dinosaurs were killed by the great flood. I mean its obviously not that their rejection of huge swatches of science offends more educated people or anything.

[Nbadan]

Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming

TBH many conservatives believe the earth is warming, they just argue that it has more to do with solar and earth cycles than man-made ...

[Blake]

Wikipedia

DeVos grew up in the*Christian Reformed Church in North America.[52]*She has been a member and*elder*of*Mars Hill Bible Church*in Grand Rapids. Former*Fuller Seminarypresident*Richard Mouw, with whom DeVos served on a committee, claims she is influenced by*neo-Calvinist*theologianAbraham Kuyper.[1]

I can't wait to hear her view on creation and evolution

[DMC]

Republicans think the reason more educated people tend to be liberal is because the schools brainwash them basically.

Betting you only have a HS diploma. Your sweeping generalization illustrates it in fact.

Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...climate-denial http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-on-earth.html

Yes, it's purely a global warming issue.

or that there is a small segment of them in Texas trying to teach kids that the dinosaurs were killed by the great flood. I mean its obviously not that their rejection of huge swatches of science offends more educated people or anything.

Or the truthers saying the gubmint conspired to blow up the trade center...

idiots.

Wait, that's the libs.

[Quadzilla99]

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

Yeah, but the country was so much whiter though then..how could it have been worse in any way

[Spurminator]

Or the truthers saying the gubmint conspired to blow up the trade center...

idiots.

Wait, that's the libs.

I keep seeing people post this lately, as though they've completely forgotten about the Ron Paul Presidential run.

[spurraider21]

TBH many conservatives believe the earth is warming, they just argue that it has more to do with solar and earth cycles than man-made ...

there are also conservatives like Jim Inhofe (chairman of senate committee on Environment and Public Works, by the way)...

global warming is fake because look i have a snowball



he has also claimed that the bible proves global warming is false because god is looking after us. speaking of which... we go to Representative Shimkus (on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce)

6:22-7:05



(maker of that last video has one of the better channels on youtube, imo... always publishes a fill list of his sources used, usually directly to the original papers)


and just for s and giggles, this dude, no longer in office as of 2015 (thank god), served on the House Committee on Science and Technology.



oddly enough, dude got his degree in chemistry and then got his M.D., meaning he's not scientifically illiterate. he's just willing to be dishonest to reconcile with "muh faith"

[CosmicCowboy]

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.

[Wild Cobra]

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.

This is so true, but the left simply will not acknowledge facts. They prefer their propaganda.

[pgardn]

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.

Yeah.

And I also hear tales that fathers, of what I believe was your generation, could not even help their kids do homework as they could not understand the "new" math. I have heard this quite a bit. There is no new math in grade school. They were just unable to transfer rote skills.

And I bet your father learned a whole bunch after HS. There are always stars. My father,who lost his father very early, had a Uncle who mentored him in school. This Uncle dropped out in the 3rd grade to work, But he read everything; always toting a library book. Told my father to finish school and go to college, gave him books to read. My father finished 5th at UT law school because of his Uncle, so my father claims. The 5 th in the class is legit. My father's twin brother is a US diplomat (career , not appointed; i.e. he is not a dumb that gave to a winning presidential campaign) All from a tiny agricultural town because of a love to learn Uncle.

As a whole, my claim stands I believe. It is also true that today's schools have to teach more, as pure manual labor jobs become less lucrative.

[pgardn]

This is so true, but the left simply will not acknowledge facts. They prefer their propaganda.

And you have no frkn clue what is going on.

When was the last time your were in a actual HS volunteering your time to tutor math because of your great understanding on the assembly line? Do you know any of the teachers.

I am telling you there are some very bright kids in very bad areas in Texas. The US is wasting these brains at our peril. Bad schools are largely in poverty ridden areas. This is not rocket science. If your parents are successful, you will most likely get planted in a good public school. If you take your opportunity seriously (as your parents most likely did) you got a huge head start.

[DMC]

Yeah.

And I also hear tales that fathers, of what I believe was your generation, could not even help their kids do homework as they could not understand the "new" math. I have heard this quite a bit. There is no new math in grade school. They were just unable to transfer rote skills.

And I bet your father learned a whole bunch after HS. There are always stars. My father,who lost his father very early, had a Uncle who mentored him in school. This Uncle dropped out in the 3rd grade to work, But he read everything; always toting a library book. Told my father to finish school and go to college, gave him books to read. My father finished 5th at UT law school because of his Uncle, so my father claims. The 5 th in the class is legit. My father's twin brother is a US diplomat (career , not appointed; i.e. he is not a dumb that gave to a winning presidential campaign) All from a tiny agricultural town because of a love to learn Uncle.

As a whole, my claim stands I believe. It is also true that today's schools have to teach more, as pure manual labor jobs become less lucrative.

Mentors are greatly underrated and undervalued. It's not a buddy system. It doesn't take a lifetime of work to change the life of a child just through encouragement or, heaven forbid, example.

[DMC]

And you have no frkn clue what is going on.

When was the last time your were in a actual HS volunteering your time to tutor math because of your great understanding on the assembly line? Do you know any of the teachers.

I am telling you there are some very bright kids in very bad areas in Texas. The US is wasting these brains at our peril. Bad schools are largely in poverty ridden areas. This is not rocket science. If your parents are successful, you will most likely get planted in a good public school. If you take your opportunity seriously (as your parents most likely did) you got a huge head start.

You cannot compare an adult to a HS grad unless you know what the education level was of the adult at the same age.

However it's much easier to survive without knowing much today than it was in the 30's. This is why I say the teat needs to be removed.

[pgardn]

You cannot compare an adult to a HS grad unless you know what the education level was of the adult at the same age.

However it's much easier to survive without knowing much today than it was in the 30's. This is why I say the teat needs to be removed.

The poster said 8 th grade. You think he was a 21 year old 8th grader? Those age groups have not changed that much from today at all with the exception they held kids back,

Like to skew things a bit. It was also much easier to survive in the 1930s then it was the 1860s. Go figure.

[pgardn]

Mentors are greatly underrated and undervalued. It's not a buddy system. It doesn't take a lifetime of work to change the life of a child just through encouragement or, heaven forbid, example.

Ok.

So....

[DMC]

Ok.

So....

So we agree.

[DMC]

The poster said 8 th grade. You think he was a 21 year old 8th grader? Those age groups have not changed that much from today at all with the exception they held kids back,

Like to skew things a bit. It was also much easier to survive in the 1930s then it was the 1860s. Go figure.

Maybe not. The great depression made things difficult on people. 1860's were more of a boon.