Really interesting article about the Spurs defense and KL

[Chinook]

It's like having a shutdown corner like Deon Sanders. The opposing QB doesn't even look that way. The problem for the Spurs in the analogy however is that the defenders on the other side of the ball (Pau and Parker here) routinely give up the long ball down the field.

It's a direct consequence of losing Timmy and Parker's deteriorating play.

Except apparently, when Deon goes out, the rest of the secondary becomes All-NFL caliber.

PnRs are "handed" if you will. Even high ones go to one side or the other. Acting like some gifs of PnRs on the other side is evidence is so strange to me. That's nothing special. If we start seeing guys like Re running PnRs to take Kawhi-on-CP out of the play, then it's interesting. But so long as Kawhi's guarding relative non-factors, (Butler is the exception), no one should think it unique for him to not be able to do much on defense.

[GSH]

Pop always says that good defense leads to good offense. But bad offense leads to bad defense on the other end. I don't like the way this starting offense is operating, and it's causing problems on both ends of the floor. 82% of Kawhi's shots are jumpers. When he does get deep into the paint, 11% of his close-range shots gets blocked. (1 in 9!) He's also taking 45% of his shots late in the clock, and only about 40% of those are assisted. So he's spending a lot of his time going solo into the teeth of the defense, late in the clock. He's really good at iso ball, compared to most - but it's still giving up a lot of easy points on the other end. That will seriously drag down the defensive numbers, +/-, and on/off stats.

If you really dig into the stats you can see that the Spurs are seriously getting their asses kicked in the early part of shot clocks. Their opponents are taking almost 40% of their shots in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock (compared to 33% for the Spurs). And the Opponent FG% on those shots is very high, as you would expect. Kawhi is taking 45% of his shots in the last 8 seconds of the clock. He's good at it, but he's still being forced to take a lot of not-very-good shots.

The idea that Kawhi is "so good at defense that he's hurting the team" is ridiculous. Bottom line, the Spurs starting five is lacking in interior defense. They only have two guys (Kawhi and Danny) who put any effort into transition D. And they feature an iso-heavy offense that gives up a lot of transition opportunities on misses. I don't think that's Kawhi's fault. He's doing exactly what Pop wants.

[Chinook]

If you really dig into the stats you can see that the Spurs are seriously getting their asses kicked in the early part of shot clocks. Their opponents are taking almost 40% of their shots in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock (compared to 33% for the Spurs). And the Opponent FG% on those shots is very high, as you would expect. Kawhi is taking 45% of his shots in the last 8 seconds of the clock. He's good at it, but he's still being forced to take a lot of not-very-good shots.

The shot-clock thing is fascinating, and it definitely implies that the Spurs aren't setting up their defense properly. I don't know if there's a stat for points scored off mismatches, but if there is one, I imagine it shows the team has been pretty poor in that end. A lot of that has to do with getting back, even if they don't count as fast-break points.

[Brazil]

somebody should merge both threads tbh

[Chinook]

somebody should merge both threads tbh

I think there are three. There's this one, the one wondering if Kawhi's D issues are overrated and then that Dedmon one. Are are essentially blaming everyone else but Kawhi for Kawhi's defensive numbers.

[Brazil]

I think there are three. There's this one, the one wondering if Kawhi's D issues are overrated and then that Dedmon one. Are are essentially blaming everyone else but Kawhi for Kawhi's defensive numbers.

not sure if blaming is the right word, Moore demonstration is quite solid but then if I'm not mistaken the one wondering if Kawhi D issues are overrated was made before moore's article. thats why I was wondering if Moore was reading ST

As I said previously, I don't see that (isolate Kawhi on defense) as a big deal, a lot of rosters won't do that anyway and solutions exist to counter it and make the team who use this tactic pay for it.

Now numbers and analysis just show what we already knew, Spurs defense fundamental was Tim and Kawhi, with Tim gone, team is struggling and not because kawhi regressed defensively but because defense of SL depends only on Kawhi. On all of that I'm not forgetting Danny but I'm not sure what to think, normally if best guard is taken out by this tactic, Danny that is a great defender should be able to cover part of the issue but his numbers are not that great either.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I don't know if there's a stat for points scored off mismatches, but if there is one, I imagine it shows the team has been pretty poor in that end.

All season the Spurs have been more than happy to switch on the PnR and manufacture mismatches, only to be burnt after that. Not sure if they're preparing for the Warriors playing this way or something else, but it blatantly does not work against some teams, especially the Clippers and Rockets. Has to be intentional though, not just lazy/bad defense.

[Chinook]

not sure if blaming is the right word, Moore demonstration is quite solid

No, it's not. Chicago scored at an 84-ppg pace in the first quarter. That's terrible. Had the Spurs scored 32 points in the first quarter rather than in the first half, no one would be saying anything about the defense. It was fine in that game. Moore putting in videos of the Bulls' successes glosses over the fact that the team was largely not successful. And the Washington and Orlando examples are even worse.

As I said previously, I don't see that (isolate Kawhi on defense) as a big deal, a lot of rosters won't do that anyway and solutions exist to counter it and make the team who use this tactic pay for it.

No roster will do it unless Pop puts Kawhi on the worst player. Even the Warriors aren't going to play without KD.

Now numbers and analysis just show what we already knew, Spurs defense fundamental was Tim and Kawhi, with Tim gone, team is struggling and not because kawhi regressed defensively but because defense of SL depends only on Kawhi.

The point of this article is that the "numbers" and "analysis" disagree. The numbers say Leonard's been poor this year. The analysis cherry-picked examples to blame everyone else. Is it as easy as saying Kawhi needs to play better defense? Nope. But the transition of Kawhi from a Marion/Pippen to a Kobe/Melo has had the predicted result. Until Pop fixes the offense, the defense will always be weak.

[Chinook]

All season the Spurs have been more than happy to switch on the PnR and manufacture mismatches, only to be burnt after that. Not sure if they're preparing for the Warriors playing this way or something else, but it blatantly does not work against some teams, especially the Clippers and Rockets. Has to be intentional though, not just lazy/bad defense.

I'm thinking that was the biggest effect of that "wall" defense Messina supposedly implemented a couple of years ago. It was definitely supposed to stop penetration and limit funneling, which had been the team's iden y before. I think it would look fantastic if you had an engaged/in shape LMA and traded Gasol for Dedmon, or better yet Millsap.

[Brazil]

No, it's not. Chicago scored at an 84-ppg pace in the first quarter. That's terrible. Had the Spurs scored 32 points in the first quarter rather than in the first half, no one would be saying anything about the defense. It was fine in that game. Moore putting in videos of the Bulls' successes glosses over the fact that the team was largely not successful. And the Washington and Orlando examples are even worse.

Moore stated that this tactic has not been always successful but 1. no doubt that washington, bulls and orlando tried it 2. Point of Moore is not about is this tactic successful (as yourself is saying) but is this tactic can explain Kawhi defensive stats... as he mentionned there is no way Kawhi regressed that much visible when you see him play and also when you look offensive stat of the player he is guarding. So again article is not about is this tactic successful.

No roster will do it unless Pop puts Kawhi on the worst player. Even the Warriors aren't going to play without KD.

Not sure I understand, rosters like the three he took as an example already did it

The point of this article is that the "numbers" and "analysis" disagree. The numbers say Leonard's been poor this year. The analysis cherry-picked examples to blame everyone else. Is it as easy as saying Kawhi needs to play better defense? Nope. But the transition of Kawhi from a Marion/Pippen to a Kobe/Melo has had the predicted result. Until Pop fixes the offense, the defense will always be weak.

The analysis just showed what we already knew, with Tim no longer around, defense is worst because Kawhi cannot cover for everybody, Kawhi uses more energy on offense AND on top of that some teams even try to isolate him which I had not suspected before reading ST poster thread and Moore article.

[GSH]

Now numbers and analysis just show what we already knew, Spurs defense fundamental was Tim and Kawhi, with Tim gone, team is struggling and not because kawhi regressed defensively but because defense of SL depends only on Kawhi. On all of that I'm not forgetting Danny but I'm not sure what to think, normally if best guard is taken out by this tactic, Danny that is a great defender should be able to cover part of the issue but his numbers are not that great either.

A good defensive team needs perimeter defense AND interior defense. This team has one of the two. They also started the season without Danny on the floor, and that forced them into a lot of unusual rotations.

I don't know how to gauge whether Kawhi is defending 100% as good as last year. But I'm not buying the idea that Kawhi's good defense is hurting the team. To believe that, you would have to believe the converse - that having a lesser defender in his spot would make the team better. It wouldn't.

[Brazil]

A good defensive team needs perimeter defense AND interior defense. This team has one of the two. They also started the season without Danny on the floor, and that forced them into a lot of unusual rotations.

I don't know how to gauge whether Kawhi is defending 100% as good as last year. But I'm not buying the idea that Kawhi's good defense is hurting the team. To believe that, you would have to believe the converse - that having a lesser defender in his spot would make the team better. It wouldn't.

my thoughts exactly

[spursistan]

Folks dog whistling about Kawhi increased usage on O is hurting the team D and Pop must rectify it: well what's actually the alternative? Lamarcus Aldridge is no in Blake Griffin for whom you're going to cede playmaking.. TP/Manu are like combined + 70 year-old..DG is D-league status in that role...Simms is raw and TO-prone.

They thought bringing a TOSB name like Gasol should take precedence over finding a dynamic PG; gotta live with the consequences.

[Chinook]

Moore stated that this tactic has not been always successful but 1. no doubt that washington, bulls and orlando tried it

This is wrong, and not even what he was saying. Only the Bulls "tried it" Kawhi guarded Otto Porter in the Wizards game. They were never going to run their offense through Porter, and Otto got up enough shots to score 15 efficient points. The Magic game's worse, because Kawhi was on a relative non-factor in Gordon to start the game, and when he "switched" onto Fournier, Evan scored at the same rate as he had before. Only Chicago actually sacrificed a top option to keep Kawhi out of the play and... they sucked because of it.

2. Point of Moore is not about is this tactic successful

Yes it is. Moore is trying to say that teams doing this are successful to the extent that Kawhi's team numbers are suffering. If they weren't successful, then Kawhi's team numbers would be neutral or good. But they aren't. They're terrible.

when you look offensive stat of the player he is guarding

The article itself says that players Kawhi is guarding are scoring better than average against him. The Butler case was an anomaly. Porter and Beal did just fine on him, and Neither Fournier or Gordon showed any drop-off.

defense is worst because Kawhi cannot cover for everybody,

The reality is that Kawhi isn't covering for anybody at all. That's why everyone has better rating without him. Having a guy like Tim or Tiago allowed Kawhi and Green to have more leeway either helping or playing off the ball. But Kawhi isn't struggling trying to cover for anybody. The article isn't even trying to say that. An example of what that looks like would be Green from a couple of years ago, when he had great scores in help defense by poor scores in spot-up man defense. Kawhi isn't overhelping.

Anyway, if every team did what the Bulls did and got the same offensive results, Pop would take it any day of the week, especially considering the first quarter. Despite cherry-picked gifs, the Spurs defense held up well with Kawhi in a corner.

[$pursDynasty]

I'm thinking that was the biggest effect of that "wall" defense Messina supposedly implemented a couple of years ago. It was definitely supposed to stop penetration and limit funneling, which had been the team's iden y before. I think it would look fantastic if you had an engaged/in shape LMA and traded Gasol for Dedmon, or better yet Millsap.

You know now that I think about it teams used to just penetrate at will on the Spurs and destroy the defensive integrity. I remember Monte Ellis would destroy us with that and he wasn't the only one. I for one don't want to go back to everybody driving down the lane on us but obviously we can't keep going like this.

[Chinook]

You know now that I think about it teams used to just penetrate at will on the Spurs and destroy the defensive integrity. I remember Monte Ellis would destroy us with that and he wasn't the only one. I for one don't want to go back to everybody driving down the lane on us but obviously we can't keep going like this.

There's a difference to getting styled on like that and doing what the Spurs used to do and funnel to their bigs. Last year, the change worked fantastically, so I don't want to act like it's a failure. But it'd probably help Pau out a lot to not have to chase guys around the perimeter.

[Brazil]

This is wrong, and not even what he was saying. Only the Bulls "tried it" Kawhi guarded Otto Porter in the Wizards game. They were never going to run their offense through Porter, and Otto got up enough shots to score 15 efficient points. The Magic game's worse, because Kawhi was on a relative non-factor in Gordon to start the game, and when he "switched" onto Fournier, Evan scored at the same rate as he had before. Only Chicago actually sacrificed a top option to keep Kawhi out of the play and... they sucked because of it.

-_- I'm puzzled. Moore took 3 games and showed actions where teams did it, that's his point. he did not say he has stats to back it up neither if this happens a lot or not.

Yes it is. Moore is trying to say that teams doing this are successful to the extent that Kawhi's team numbers are suffering. If they weren't successful, then Kawhi's team numbers would be neutral or good. But they aren't. They're terrible.

What do you mean by successful ? if sucessful is winning games using that tactic, this is not what he said. He stated Spurs are still top 10 on defense with good record etc... he is even wondering if Kawhi is too good of a defender... now the fact you think otherwise is a different story

The article itself says that players Kawhi is guarding are scoring better than average against him. The Butler case was an anomaly. Porter and Beal did just fine on him, and Neither Fournier or Gordon showed any drop-off.

sure but as Moore stated 10 times in this article Kawhi did not become a bad defender 6 months after being the new Pippen

The reality is that Kawhi isn't covering for anybody at all. That's why everyone has better rating without him. Having a guy like Tim or Tiago allowed Kawhi and Green to have more leeway either helping or playing off the ball. But Kawhi isn't struggling trying to cover for anybody. The article isn't even trying to say that. An example of what that looks like would be Green from a couple of years ago, when he had great scores in help defense by poor scores in spot-up man defense. Kawhi isn't overhelping.

article did say that yes... Kawhi taken in no man's land trying to cover his guy that was isolated and provide help to his teammates... article also stated that it is not working thus spurs struggle in defense with SL

Anyway, if every team did what the Bulls did and got the same offensive results, Pop would take it any day of the week, especially considering the first quarter. Despite cherry-picked gifs, the Spurs defense held up well with Kawhi in a corner.

That's exactly my point too... this tactic is not gonna work

[Brazil]

At the end Chinook my man, what's your view on that ? I don't believe one sec your argument is to say Kawhi became a defender

If your points are:
- Tim is ing underrated even for an all time defensive talent he was important and a big factor in Kawhi massive defensive metrics
- As kawhi is having more load on offensive end because Spurs are over using iso plays thus his defense suffers a bit

we can agree on something. Now I'd add that and this is the point of Moore:

- Opponents want to avoid Kawhi and attack weaker dudes Tony, Pau, LMA and even Danny. They can go to the extreme (see Bulls) or more often just attacking our P&R defense, targetting the weakests defenders etc
- SL defense is in a tough spot and its not going to get better

If your point is Kawhi became a bad defender, metrics don't lie or there is no other explanation than he sucks well

[dabom]

At the end Chinook my man, what's your view on that ? I don't believe one sec your argument is to say Kawhi became a defender

If your points are:
- Tim is ing underrated even for an all time defensive talent he was important and a big factor in Kawhi massive defensive metrics
- As kawhi is having more load on offensive end because Spurs are over using iso plays thus his defense suffers a bit

we can agree on something. Now I'd add that and this is the point of Moore:

- Opponents want to avoid Kawhi and attack weaker dudes Tony, Pau, LMA and even Danny. They can go to the extreme (see Bulls) or more often just attacking our P&R defense, targetting the weakests defenders etc
- SL defense is in a tough spot and its not going to get better

If your point is Kawhi became a bad defender, metrics don't lie or there is no other explanation than he sucks well

"Green is a better defender"

[Brazil]

Also, I think this is Harlem who pointed it out, it is probably too soon to conclude on the differencial of FG% when Kawhi is contesting a shot vs. last season. I mean Kawhi length and wingspan did not decrease, I don't see Kawhi faking more contesting shots or putting less energy on contesting than last year tbh

[Chinook]

-_- I'm puzzled. Moore took 3 games and showed actions where teams did it, that's his point. he did not say he has stats to back it up neither if this happens a lot or not.

Nah. His point is, "This is why Kawhi's numbers are bad." And then he cherry-picked examples. But only the Bulls actually did it. Porter got his with Kawhi on him (so the Wizards never went away from Leonard), and Fournier never got his. It's just a wrong point.

What do you mean by successful ? if sucessful is winning games using that tactic, this is not what he said. He stated Spurs are still top 10 on defense with good record etc... he is even wondering if Kawhi is too good of a defender... now the fact you think otherwise is a different story

The Spurs with Kawhi parked in a corner defended at an elite clip. So a) that wasn't a problem for them and b) that doesn't explain why Kawhi's numbers are so bad. His whole premise is wrong.

sure but as Moore stated 10 times in this article Kawhi did not become a bad defender 6 months after being the new Pippen

No he didn't. But he hasn't been good this year. Rather than jumping through hoops to blame others, Moore should be able to call a spade a spade. Danny didn't become an awful shooter last year, but he still shot terribly. Both things can be true without cognitive dissonance.

article did say that yes... Kawhi taken in no man's land trying to cover his guy that was isolated and provide help to his teammates... article also stated that it is not working thus spurs struggle in defense with SL

But that would actually show in the stats like it does with Green. You don't have negative on/offs by being a good defender who overhelps.

That's exactly my point too... this tactic is not gonna work

Indeed, and it doesn't explain Kawhi's numbers. Just wish Moore didn't write an article saying as much.

[Chinook]

At the end Chinook my man, what's your view on that ? I don't believe one sec your argument is to say Kawhi became a defender

I've said it multiple times. The reason why the defense so poor is because the offense is poor. Kawhiso isn't good for the team. It's passable when he's hitting at a really high clip. But taking poor midrange shots really hurts a team's ability to set up their D, as does not being fouled. And yelling at the refs after getting blocked in the lane isn't helping. None of those things happen when Kawhi is out.

Also, as I said, he plays so many minutes that the guys who play without him only do so at the nadir of the other team's rotation. Danny's elite when not paired with Kawhi this year, but I doubt that he's had more than 100 minutes without Leonard in the game.

- As kawhi is having more load on offensive end because Spurs are over using iso plays thus his defense suffers a bit

And that's true as well. What's not true is that he's struggling trying to cover for everybody, because everyone else covers themselves just fine when he's not in the game.

[Brazil]

^ I overall disagree with all most everything you are saying and we surely did not read the same article. Let us proceed

[RD2191]

^ I overall disagree with all most everything you are saying and we surely did not read the same article. Let us proceed

Chinook has lost his mind tbh.

[dabom]

^ I overall disagree with all most everything you are saying and we surely did not read the same article. Let us proceed

Dude would want Dworst as our starting center.