Really interesting article about the Spurs defense and KL

[Chinook]

This is the article's thesis:

So we've reached an impasse. We know Leonard is an elite defender. We know he's still locking up whoever he is facing. So how do we explain these numbers, the somewhat small sample size notwithstanding?

Is it possible that Leonard is, in fact, too good a defender?

And it's is a fallacious one.

In the intro he also said:

After all, we know Leonard is a great defender.

I know that sounds crazy, but those are the numbers.

Essentially, he keeps pissing in his well with those statements. Rather than trying to see what's going on, he's trying to look for ways to mold reality to fit his assumptions. And he's left with major issues that he brushes off because they're dissonant with his thesis.

The biggest question is about when Leonard's off the court: The defense is bad when Leonard's on the court. But why is the defense so much better when Leonard's not playing?

He makes it sound like this is just an area of further inquiry, but that's actually his harms at the beginning of the article restated.

Furthermore, the defensive rating of each one of the Spurs' eight rotation players gets worse with Leonard on the court, often by double-digits.

It's just a mess of an article, gifs notwithstanding.

[Chinook]

Chinook has lost his mind tbh.

Doing me wrong, Rob.

[All Mighty Janitor]

Nah. His point is, "This is why Kawhi's numbers are bad." And then he cherry-picked examples. But only the Bulls actually did it. Porter got his with Kawhi on him (so the Wizards never went away from Leonard), and Fournier never got his. It's just a wrong point.



The Spurs with Kawhi parked in a corner defended at an elite clip. So a) that wasn't a problem for them and b) that doesn't explain why Kawhi's numbers are so bad. His whole premise is wrong.



No he didn't. But he hasn't been good this year. Rather than jumping through hoops to blame others, Moore should be able to call a spade a spade. Danny didn't become an awful shooter last year, but he still shot terribly. Both things can be true without cognitive dissonance.



But that would actually show in the stats like it does with Green. You don't have negative on/offs by being a good defender who overhelps.



Indeed, and it doesn't explain Kawhi's numbers. Just wish Moore didn't write an article saying as much.

Opposing teams were already going 4v4 last year to get Kawhi out of the main action, so then why is the result so much different this year compared to the last? Like i said in the post I made, this article shows just one part of the problem. Tim allowed the wings to stay home on their men, because he could protect the rim with either Kawhi or green in front of him. Gasol can't; he doesn't rotate all the time because of foot speed and/or awareness. With no rim protector, everybody on the wing has to help Gasol out so they overhelp to protect the rim [I assume Pop would rather give up jumpers than layups]. This leaves the wings(especially Kawhi as he would most likely be the baseline rotater) trying to close out to shooters, at the shooters mercy. This is why Kawhi's defenders shoot better from three when he on them. Kawhi's not doing anything different from last year. He being asked to cover-up for Gasol's short comings and his impact/numbers suffer for it.

[Spurs_619]

Chinook has been all in on the green>Kawhi on D for a couple years now. Dude thought green was a better overall player then kawhi in 14... biggest homer on this site tbh.

[Brazil]

Opposing teams were already going 4v4 last year to get Kawhi out of the main action, so then why is the result so much different this year compared to the last? Like i said in the post I made, this article shows just one part of the problem. Tim allowed the wings to stay home on their men, because he could protect the rim with either Kawhi or green in front of him. Gasol can't; he doesn't rotate all the time because of foot speed and/or awareness. With no rim protector, everybody on the wing has to help Gasol out so they overhelp to protect the rim [I assume Pop would rather give up jumpers than layups]. This leaves the wings(especially Kawhi as he would most likely be the baseline rotater) trying to close out to shooters, at the shooters mercy. This is why Kawhi's defenders shoot better from three when he on them. Kawhi's not doing anything different from last year. He being asked to cover-up for Gasol's short comings and his impact/numbers suffer for it.

Yes This is what Moore is also saying in his article

[dabom]

I don't think anyone actually working in the NBA can make a case for Kawhi being a bad defender. ing cucks I tell you.

[Chinook]

Opposing teams were already going 4v4 last year to get Kawhi out of the main action, so then why is the result so much different this year compared to the last? Like i said in the post I made, this article shows just one part of the problem. Tim allowed the wings to stay home on their men, because he could protect the rim with either Kawhi or green in front of him. Gasol can't; he doesn't rotate all the time because of foot speed and/or awareness. With no rim protector, everybody on the wing has to help Gasol out so they overhelp to protect the rim [I assume Pop would rather give up jumpers than layups]. This leaves the wings(especially Kawhi as he would most likely be the baseline rotater) trying to close out to shooters, at the shooters mercy. This is why Kawhi's defenders shoot better from three when he on them. Kawhi's not doing anything different from last year. He being asked to cover-up for Gasol's short comings and his impact/numbers suffer for it.

But then everyone else would suffer in kind. But they don't for some reason, when it's Simmons or Anderson in Kawhi's spot, Gasol doesn't look as bad. I agree that there are defensive issues that can be exploited. But those aren't going to explain away Kawhi's issues. BBall Breakdown managed to both show more evidence for Moore's point while rejecting the thesis Moore made.

Anyway, if you're looking for a change, the easiest thing that affects Kawhi uniquely is his shot selection. People who think it's better or the same just aren't watching closely. It's much riskier.

[Spurs_619]

But then everyone else would suffer in kind. But they don't for some reason, when it's Simmons or Anderson in Kawhi's spot, Gasol doesn't look as bad. I agree that there are defensive issues that can be exploited. But those aren't going to explain away Kawhi's issues. BBall Breakdown managed to both show more evidence for Moore's point while rejecting the thesis Moore made.

Anyway, if you're looking for a change, the easiest thing that affects Kawhi uniquely is his shot selection. People who think it's better or the same just aren't watching closely. It's much riskier.

Of course his shot selection is diff. last year he was still playing a lot more off the ball just by the nature of his role his shot selection is going to change.

[Chinook]

Of course his shot selection is diff. last year he was still playing a lot more off the ball just by the nature of his role his shot selection is going to change.

Indeed. I don't know if it would be the same with better guards, but it's shaky. He's so good that he fools people into thinking those are good shots, but they aren't. It's like people arguing that Curry is taking good shots when he jacks up 35-footers.

[pgardn]

Mostly good stuff in this thread.

Still miss Duncan down low on D.

[All Mighty Janitor]

But then everyone else would suffer in kind. But they don't for some reason, when it's Simmons or Anderson in Kawhi's spot, Gasol doesn't look as bad. I agree that there are defensive issues that can be exploited. But those aren't going to explain away Kawhi's issues. BBall Breakdown managed to both show more evidence for Moore's point while rejecting the thesis Moore made.

Anyway, if you're looking for a change, the easiest thing that affects Kawhi uniquely is his shot selection. People who think it's better or the same just aren't watching closely. It's much riskier.

Maybe Anderson or Simmons just stay home or don't have to help out against other bench units thus their individual numbers are better. I don't really know; it just a thought.

Also about the shot selection; wouldn't Kawhi be able to get back on D faster if if he taking a jumper instead of driving to the rim on a make or miss? He also very efficient so that should allow the team to get back. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but I doubt his shot selection could be affecting his defensive numbers that much.

[Sean Cagney]

It was not just noise though. There's a reason he graded so well in +/- and not necessarily because he was a good player, but he's shown that for long stretches of games if you can drag an opponent big away from the basket it opens the floor for your teammates, effectively making them better. Thus the +/- being high and the value of the stretch 4 position - the +/- in his case was legit.

Not a huge fan of the guy but honestly that is true.

[YGWHI]

sure but as Moore stated 10 times in this article Kawhi did not become a bad defender 6 months after being the new Pippen

And Moore is right about this.

You can read Chinnok posting "The Butler case was an anomaly" But Kawhi already shut down Klay, Gay, Wiggins, Butler in the season...

Also when you read from him "Porter and Beal did just fine on him, and Neither Fournier or Gordon showed any drop-off."..

It's so funny because Danny was the guy who defended them most game until Pop decided they went too hot and put Kawhi on those guys.

[dabom]

YG is just straight savage.

[YGWHI]

.500 on midrange Js is elite

I know. That's why I posted it.

Chinnok specifically said "Any first-option wing struggling on offense will hurt his team's defense, just due to where they get their shots from. There are shots that are inherently good like corner-threes, and there are shots that are only acceptable if a player hits them at a high clip like long-twos."

Kawhi is hitting those shots at high percentage, so no that's not an issue for our defense.

Sure, you're right Kawhi's shooting is a career low but there are two factors for those numbers.

Kawhi is taking a bigger offensive role and efficiency always decreases a bit in those situations, and this season he's learning how to draw fouls, he'll force there to get the calls. It's a learning process.

Again, Kawhi's offense isn't one of the Spurs main issues on defense like he said.