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  1. #301
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Maybe by ALLOWING less strict gun laws in rural areas v. the burbs. The states could make more informed decisions. I could go through so many more...


    Now just think about the possibility that owning guns in certain areas actually is correlated to less gun related crime. Maybe leave them alone and maybe advertise the stats to other communities and do a thorough explanation of the validity of the correlation. Maybe?

    You were dense on the Israeli posts, I figured you could handle gun related issues. You probably can but the status quo is fine. Gun public safety is really not an issue for you.
    Next.
    Last edited by pgardn; 12-27-2016 at 07:25 PM.

  2. #302
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Again, how is this important? What would be done with the information?

    Are there more electrical accidents in houses with more electrical outlets?

    Information like this does nothing without a followup plan. This plan would eventually have to incorporate gun control legislation. Ergo it's a gun control issue.

    What, are you going to suggest that people need to be told that accidental gun deaths are possible, like drownings, auto accidents, electrocutions, accidental overdoses and such? Does having more pill bottles mean more chance of accidental overdose?

    You're the one supporting gun registration, calling it important. I don't need to conjure up ways to support that, you do. Everything you've mentioned is already being studied from another angle. If you can show accidental gun deaths are more prevalent in specific areas than in others, then you can drill down on why. That's being done already. You still have nothing but a thinly veiled gun control argument.

    Otherwise it wouldn't cost so much and need to renewed every year. They know the owner didn't change nor did the plate number, they just say it's expired. How is it possible that it expired when none of the information changed? You're not even asked to verify the information. You just pay the money and get your new registration.

    Would someone need to renew their gun registration every year? I mean, since you're making absurd comparisons...

    Another myth no one can provide any evidence for.

    Something proposed with no evidence doesn't merit evidence against it to show it's useless. When you apply for a job, do they have to show you how you're not qualified?

    Basically you don't need the information you claim to need. It's not your business. If it was, you'd not need the CDC to do it, you could do it with local legislation.
    It must be torturous to reply with something so utterly disingenuous that takes time and is so repe ive.

    You have zero to add.
    I get that now.

  3. #303
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    It must be torturous to reply with something so utterly disingenuous that takes time and is so repe ive.

    You have zero to add.
    I get that now.
    Basically you are a lib in training.

  4. #304
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Maybe by ALLOWING less strict gun laws in rural areas v. the burbs. The states could make more informed decisions. I could go through so many more...


    Now just think about the possibility that owning guns in certain areas actually is correlated to less gun related crime. Maybe leave them alone and maybe advertise the stats to other communities and do a thorough explanation of the validity of the correlation. Maybe?

    You were dense on the Israeli posts, I figured you could handle gun related issues. You probably can but the status quo is fine. Gun public safety is really not an issue for you.
    Next.
    "I could go through so many more"

    Doesn't go through any... types several paragraphs of unrelated ...again.

    Your solution: leave them alone.

    We got there already. You need a registry to tell you to off.

  5. #305
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Basically you are a lib in training.
    And you are a pile of old.

    In logic and reasoning.

  6. #306
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    "I could go through so many more"

    Doesn't go through any... types several paragraphs of unrelated ...again.
    BS

    You don't get this.
    And You got nothing left.

    Old leads to inflexible rot. I see that now.

  7. #307
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    And you are a pile of old.

    In logic and reasoning.
    "Leave them alone"

  8. #308
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    BS

    You don't get this.
    And You got nothing left.

    Old leads to inflexible rot. I see that now.
    Age discrimination?

  9. #309
    Believe.
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    It must be torturous to reply with something so utterly disingenuous that takes time and is so repe ive.

    You have zero to add.
    I get that now.
    there is already handgun registration and all that that he is fearmongering has not happened in the past 50 years.

    Mostly he doubles down on NRA slogans and soundbites.

  10. #310
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    I sort of implied this question (or at least I intended to) several pages back. I'll ask it again, I'm genuinely curious. & I think it stems from the fact that all this gun registration/statistics talk, to me anyway, just seems to be an unnecessary obstacle in the way of new policies that reduce gun crime/violence. Would these statistics help further clarify/validate the reasons/need for new gun control policies? How? Cuz I'm just not seeing it.

    Seems to me, regardless of what we know about how many guns are where, who has how many guns etc., we know (or at least I hope we do) mental illness (& which ones exactly, whether remission would lift restrictions, psychiatrist approval, how much control is left up to states etc. are all valid issues that need more fleshing out), mental re ation, criminal history, gun safety (I think for example, at least in a house w/ kids or in a house w/ really any of the occupants that fits into one of the previously mentioned categories, a gun safe should be required), gun safety negligence laws (eg. when a kid grabs his mommy's/daddy's gun that they left sitting next to the kitchen sink & shoots someone, there needs to be a hefty punitive consequence), & neighborhood/street focused policing (based purely on crime numbers--NOT race, NOT culture, NOT nationality--but the number of crimes...so if it just so happens that a great majority of those neighborhoods/streets house Black people, then they can just tell them "Black Lives Matter"--& I'm not being facetious), to name a few, are the pressing issues.

    All this statistics talk just sounds like it might make for a mildly interesting Sociology thesis. That's about it.

    Where am I wrong?

  11. #311
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Too bad its a state issue.
    You're an idiot.

  12. #312
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Thats your best? Pussy.

  13. #313
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Thats your best? Pussy.
    You said CLH infringed on 2nd amendment rights. I quoted a SCOTUS opinion, from an originalist justice no less, refuting your claim outright. You say it's a state issue. Do you know what happens when a state passes a law that's uncons utional?

    sorry, but you're kind of an idiot.

  14. #314
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    Gun ownership should require joining a local militia chapter. This would satisfy the "well regulated militia" requirement. It would be compulsive but non binding - no citizen could be forced into actual combat on the field.

  15. #315
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    You said CLH infringed on 2nd amendment rights. I quoted a SCOTUS opinion, from an originalist justice no less, refuting your claim outright. You say it's a state issue. Do you know what happens when a state passes a law that's uncons utional?

    sorry, but you're kind of an idiot.
    What happens? Same as what's happening now, where states are moving toward no permit required to open carry. 30 years ago you couldn't get concealed carry anywhere as a citizen. Now you can get it almost everywhere and many states are open carry, some without permit (Missouri in 2017 for example).

    I'd say the 2nd Amendment intent is being corrected, but it doesn't happen overnight.

    When a law is uncons utional, it has to be challenged. It doesn't go *POOF* into magic fairy dust, idiot.

  16. #316
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Gun ownership should require joining a local militia chapter. This would satisfy the "well regulated militia" requirement. It would be compulsive but non binding - no citizen could be forced into actual combat on the field.
    Sure, if 2A said "if they are in a militia".

    Should you have a press pass for freedom of the press?

  17. #317
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    "well regulated" at the time it was written meant in proper working order.

  18. #318
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    "well regulated" at the time it was written meant in proper working order.
    It was also in the context of no standing army, and it was not meant for such militia to attack the US govt, nor does it forbid public-health-protecting gun regulations

    Sicko gun fellators, G F Y

  19. #319
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    What happens? Same as what's happening now, where states are moving toward no permit required to open carry. 30 years ago you couldn't get concealed carry anywhere as a citizen. Now you can get it almost everywhere and many states are open carry, some without permit (Missouri in 2017 for example).

    I'd say the 2nd Amendment intent is being corrected, but it doesn't happen overnight.

    When a law is uncons utional, it has to be challenged. It doesn't go *POOF* into magic fairy dust, idiot.
    So it's your opinion, not a fact, that CHL infringes on 2nd amendment rights. Great, glad we established that. And as I said, it's my opinion that would not hold up in court.

    For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884).[I][I][I]
    Feel free to try and make a case for CHL laws being uncons utional. At this point, all you've given is an unsubstantiated opinion.
    Last edited by Th'Pusher; 12-28-2016 at 03:13 PM.

  20. #320
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    It was also in the context of no standing army, and it was not meant for such militia to attack the US govt, nor does it forbid public-health-protecting gun regulations

    Sicko gun fellators, G F Y
    Federalist #46

    The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously ac ulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterrupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.


    Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men.



    To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus cir stanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it.



    Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes.


    But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the su ion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors.

  21. #321
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    Sure, if 2A said "if they are in a militia".

    Should you have a press pass for freedom of the press?
    I think the intent was to arm the citizenry against threats both within and without the nation. My opinion. Local militias would ideally be self contained units outside of the military 'schain of command.

  22. #322
    Believe.
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    How does one achieve proper working order? What does order imply in and of itself. Hmm regulation maybe?

    Regardless, TSA's word is not worth it's weight in . I have seen other definitions and none from the Federalist or similar source material.

  23. #323
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    I think the intent was to arm the citizenry against threats both within and without the nation. My opinion. Local militias would ideally be self contained units outside of the military 'schain of command.
    Militias are fine, but the wording doesn't indicate it as a caveat to possessing a firearm. Possession was well understood and accepted by all of the framers. The argument was between folks who wanted a standing army (federalists) and those who were against it (anti-federalists). The 2A was there to ensure that the people would always pose a greater force than the standing army. Whether that's been defeated is another question altogether. The 2A mentions the concerns of the anti-federalists and then goes on to set a condition where the general population cannot be coerced through force to surrender their weapons.

  24. #324
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    How does one achieve proper working order? What does order imply in and of itself. Hmm regulation maybe?

    Regardless, TSA's word is not worth it's weight in . I have seen other definitions and none from the Federalist or similar source material.
    The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
    1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulatedAppe es and worthy Inclinations."
    1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
    1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
    1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
    1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
    1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
    The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.


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    by Daniel J. Schultz
    The Second Amendment to the United States Cons ution states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The reference to a "well regulated" militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today's English, the term "well regulated" probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous.
    The words "well regulated" had a far different meaning at the time the Second Amendment was drafted. In the context of the Cons ution's provisions for Congressional power over certain aspects of the militia, and in the context of the Framers' definition of "militia," government regulation was not the intended meaning. Rather, the term meant only what it says, that the necessary militia be well regulated, but not by the national government.
    To determine the meaning of the Cons ution, one must start with the words of the Cons ution itself. If the meaning is plain, that meaning controls. To ascertain the meaning of the term "well regulated" as it was used in the Second Amendment, it is necessary to begin with the purpose of the Second Amendment itself. The overriding purpose of the Framers in guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear arms was as a check on the standing army, which the Cons ution gave the Congress the power to "raise and support."
    As Noah Webster put it in a pamphlet urging ratification of the Cons ution, "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe." George Mason remarked to his Virginia delegates regarding the colonies' recent experience with Britain, in which the Monarch's goal had been "to disarm the people; that [that] . . . was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." A widely reprinted article by Tench Coxe, an ally and correspondent of James Madison, described the Second Amendment's overriding goal as a check upon the national government's standing army: As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
    Thus, the well regulated militia necessary to the security of a free state was a militia that might someday fight against a standing army raised and supported by a tyrannical national government. Obviously, for that reason, the Framers did not say "A Militia well regulated by the Congress, being necessary to the security of a free State" -- because a militia so regulated might not be separate enough from, or free enough from, the national government, in the sense of both physical and operational control, to preserve the "security of a free State."
    It is also helpful to contemplate the overriding purpose and object of the Bill of Rights in general. To secure ratification of the Cons ution, the Federalists, urging passage of the Cons ution by the States had committed themselves to the addition of the Bill of Rights, to serve as "further guards for private rights." In that regard, the first ten amendments to the Cons ution were designed to be a series of "shall nots," telling the new national government again, in no uncertain terms, where it could not tread.
    It would be incongruous to suppose or suggest the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, which were proscriptions on the powers of the national government, simultaneously acted as a grant of power to the national government. Similarly, as to the term "well regulated," it would make no sense to suggest this referred to a grant of "regulation" power to the government (national or state), when the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to both declare individual rights and tell the national government where the scope of its enumerated powers ended.
    In keeping with the intent and purpose of the Bill of Rights both of declaring individual rights and proscribing the powers of the national government, the use and meaning of the term "Militia" in the Second Amendment, which needs to be "well regulated," helps explain what "well regulated" meant. When the Cons ution was ratified, the Framers unanimously believed that the "militia" included all of the people capable of bearing arms.
    George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Cons ution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people." Likewise, the Federal Farmer, one of the most important Anti-Federalist opponents of the Cons ution, referred to a "militia, when properly formed, [as] in fact the people themselves." The list goes on and on.
    By contrast, nowhere is to be found a contemporaneous definition of the militia, by any of the Framers, as anything other than the "whole body of the people." Indeed, as one commentator said, the notion that the Framers intended the Second Amendment to protect the "collective" right of the states to maintain militias rather than the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, "remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis."
    Furthermore, returning to the text of the Second Amendment itself, the right to keep and bear arms is expressly retained by "the people," not the states. Recently the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed this view, finding that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right held by the "people," -- a "term of art employed in select parts of the Cons ution," specifically the Preamble and the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Thus, the term "well regulated" ought to be considered in the context of the noun it modifies, the people themselves, the militia(s).
    The above analysis leads us finally to the term "well regulated." What did these two words mean at the time of ratification? Were they commonly used to refer to a governmental bureaucracy as we know it today, with countless rules and regulations and inspectors, or something quite different? We begin this analysis by examining how the term "regulate" was used elsewhere in the Cons ution. In every other instance where the term "regulate" is used, or regulations are referred to, the Cons ution specifies who is to do the regulating and what is being "regulated." However, in the Second Amendment, the Framers chose only to use the term "well regulated" to describe a militia and chose not to define who or what would regulate it.
    It is also important to note that the Framers' chose to use the indefinite article "a" to refer to the militia, rather than the definite article "the." This choice suggests that the Framers were not referring to any particular well regulated militia but, instead, only to the concept that well regulated militias, made up of citizens bearing arms, were necessary to secure a free State. Thus, the Framers chose not to explicitly define who, or what, would regulate the militias, nor what such regulation would consist of, nor how the regulation was to be accomplished.
    This comparison of the Framers' use of the term "well regulated" in the Second Amendment, and the words "regulate" and "regulation" elsewhere in the Cons ution, clarifies the meaning of that term in reference to its object, namely, the Militia. There is no doubt the Framers understood that the term "militia" had multiple meanings. First, the Framers understood all of the people to be part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia members, "the people," had the right to keep and bear arms. They could, individually, or in concert, "well regulate" themselves; that is, they could train to shoot accurately and to learn the basics of military tactics.
    This interpretation is in keeping with English usage of the time, which included within the meaning of the verb "regulate" the concept of self- regulation or self-control (as it does still to this day). The concept that the people retained the right to self-regulate their local militia groups (or regulate themselves as individual militia members) is entirely consistent with the Framers' use of the indefinite article "a" in the phrase "A well regulated Militia."
    This concept of the people's self-regulation, that is, non-governmental regulation, is also in keeping with the limited grant of power to Congress "for calling forth" the militia for only certain, limited purposes, to "provide for" the militia only certain limited control and equipment, and the limited grant of power to the President regarding the militia, who only serves as Commander in Chief of that portion of the militia called into the actual service of the nation. The "well regula[tion]" of the militia set forth in the Second Amendment was apart from that control over the militia exercised by Congress and the President, which extended only to that part of the militia called into actual service of the Union. Thus, "well regula[tion]" referred to something else. Since the fundamental purpose of the militia was to serve as a check upon a standing army, it would seem the words "well regulated" referred to the necessity that the armed citizens making up the militia(s) have the level of equipment and training necessary to be an effective and formidable check upon the national government's standing army.
    This view is confirmed by Alexander Hamilton's observation, in The Federalist, No. 29, regarding the people's militias ability to be a match for a standing army: " . . . but if cir stances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights . . . ."
    It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers' writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that "well regulated" militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to "insure domestic Tranquility" and "provide for the common defence."

  25. #325
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    So it's your opinion, not a fact, that CHL infringes on 2nd amendment rights. Great, glad we established that. And as I said, it's my opinion that would not hold up in court.
    Even the court offers an opinion. Are you that ing stupid?
    Feel free to try and make a case for CHL laws being uncons utional. At this point, all you've given is an unsubstantiated opinion.
    You asked for my opinion. In order to give it you have to interpret the 2A. That's how I interpret it. Most states agree with me since very few have laws against open carry.

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