I want Manu back for another year, tbh..

[kuato]

Manu is doing a great job with the 2nd unit, when he is on the team everybody defends, even Kawhy improves his performance when Manu is playing.

[sasaint]

You shouldn't be torn at all. The Spurs are developing players (like Simmons, who plays at his position, SG and exactly 0.4 mins less per game than Manu this season). Manu just has a relatively high usage (albeit in low minutes), simply because he's still a net positive out there. Even if Manu retires, I don't think it's automatic that, say, Murray takes his minutes. I think Murray's situation is more closely tied to what PATFO does over the summer with Patty.

What some of you need to realize is that the Spurs are not really rebuilding. Time for the younger guys will come here and there, and they need to show they've earned it. Take last season for example. The Spurs could've given more run to Kyle or Simmons, but PATFO brought in 33 years old Kevin Martin mid-season instead. If you want Pop to play the kids more, they either need to be extremely good, or wait until the team is tanking, tbh.

I've no idea what Manu is going to do, tbh, he probably doesn't know either. But it wouldn't be surprising at all if PATFO goes out there and gets another vet if he retires. They get to look at the kids plenty during the season and practice, they know what they have, what they can trot out there and not.

Last season is a great example. Pop brought in KMart and gave him minutes that could have gone to Kyle and/or Simmons. KMart was mediocre at best, and probably no better than either Kyle or Simmons; however, Pop gave him those minutes simply because he was a geezer. It would have been better if Pop had given Kyle and/or Simmons those minutes, tbh.

[MultiTroll]

Last season is a great example. Pop brought in KMart and gave him minutes that could have gone to Kyle and/or Simmons. KMart was mediocre at best, and probably no better than either Kyle or Simmons; however, Pop gave him those minutes simply because he was a geezer. It would have been better if Pop had given Kyle and/or Simmons those minutes, tbh.

Co sign.
With exception of mediocre at best.
imo he was less then mediocre, a net negative. When combined with stealing minutes, completely senseless move.

[sasaint]

I totally agree with you, not trolling here. Pop will also keep going to him so long as he's in the team too. I am aware however that his compe ive spirit is like no other and same as Tim, when he's gone we will miss him. There will be no other MVPelon.

You may be higher on Simmons than I am though. If their answer to the bench is Manu one more season plus Simmons.. then I am not on board. I think Simmons will get paid, he has earned it and it is hard to say how much. I do think however that he's an inconsistent player who, when pressing the issue is incredibly prone to mistakes and getting striped still and he is too inconsistent with his jumper to be a guy around which others play in the bench. I may be mistaken in this evaluation bc he has shown some improvement but he's incredibly inconsistent as a scorer and so up and down that his age combined with what he has shown so far tells me that he's more likely to come in playing like he did against Memphis last night than the way he did against GSW in the season opener any regular night. In fact the GSW game is the only one of it's nature this season... and he statpads in garbage time a lot. Games like the one against Memphis tell me more about him and what he can do against real compe ion than garbage time statpadding. I would rather if the Spurs are going to pay someone that they get someone better personally.

He was to me the worst perimeter player for the Spurs the last game (save Dijon's terrible 3 minute stint in which he got stripped thrice and missed the one shot he took)... anyways, I want the Spurs to get someone better and more consistent for their bench... who is young enough that Pop doesn't need to rest him every other game and manage or restrict his minutes even when the team is losing just bc he's 40 and his body cannot in all consciousness handle it. Dijon is going to require time to reach his ceiling and I think Spurs could use someone who is going to be there to help things in the bench.

I don't know if they will retain Patty either, I thought initially they would, but now I am unsure. He's not the answer in the bench post Ginobili, specially if he gets a massive contract... but he may. Never underestimate Pop and his loyalties though.

It's really whether Pop will adjust Manu's role and whether adjusting his role to the point Manu is not Manu that makes me wonder if that is even worth it for Manu. I do believe when he reaches a point that he cannot be himself on the court it is time to retire (it's what Timmy did). Manu is close to that point... so very close he looks very much done in some games and that cannot be fun for him. He's still got the Pelotas though and can make game swinging plays. If it comes to it, I'd like him back while Dijon is worked in for example. The Mills vs Simmons vs a FA, Dedmon or Lee debate is for RC in the offseason.

Yes, we know that I like Simmons better than you. Despite last game, what I have seen is steady, fairly consistent improvement from him. He has a willingness to perform within the framework of the team; whereas last season he got by exclusively on his athletic ability. I look at a 39 year old Manu and wonder why in the world people are making an issue over Simmons' age. He has shown improvement that makes me believe he has not hit his peak. Pop clearly doesn't believe it either. Pop uses him in the same way he used Manu - some PG, some wing. I believe he is slated for the Manu role once Manu retires.

"Statpadding" is a weird, blanket term that people use to describe more than one situation. Leaving Westchuck in for the final minutes of a game that is out of reach for either team just so he can chuck some more shots or grab another rebound or make another assist - especially in pursuit of a triple double - that's statpadding. But when the Spurs are up by a mere 10-12 points with 2-3 minutes left and Tony continues to play and score, that is not statpadding or heroballing in my book but bringing home a W when the opponent could still put on a rally and pull the game out. Similarly, when Simmons plays most of his minutes in garbage time (perhaps because Manu has been playing the "real" minutes), is he supposed to not play hard - not try to score or try for a rebound or try to make an assist? If he does well with what opportunities he is given, should that be a knock on him? In short, all statpadding is not the same. I will leave it to RC to determine how much Simmons is worth to the Spurs.

Unlike most posters, I envision Dijon's replacing Tony in the SL sooner rather than later. So I do not see a real conflict between Simmons and Dijon despite their rather similar skill sets. I see Dijon playing mostly with the SL and Juice playing mostly with the second unit. Assuming Manu wants to return and he would accept a role as a 3-point specialist (a la Kerr or Horry), I see potential conflict between Manu and Mills - conflict in terms of competing for payroll dollars.

[SAGirl]

Yes, we know that I like Simmons better than you. Despite last game, what I have seen is steady, fairly consistent improvement from him. He has a willingness to perform within the framework of the team; whereas last season he got by exclusively on his athletic ability. I look at a 39 year old Manu and wonder why in the world people are making an issue over Simmons' age. He has shown improvement that makes me believe he has not hit his peak. Pop clearly doesn't believe it either. Pop uses him in the same way he used Manu - some PG, some wing. I believe he is slated for the Manu role once Manu retires.

"Statpadding" is a weird, blanket term that people use to describe more than one situation. Leaving Westchuck in for the final minutes of a game that is out of reach for either team just so he can chuck some more shots or grab another rebound or make another assist - especially in pursuit of a triple double - that's statpadding. But when the Spurs are up by a mere 10-12 points with 2-3 minutes left and Tony continues to play and score, that is not statpadding or heroballing in my book but bringing home a W when the opponent could still put on a rally and pull the game out. Similarly, when Simmons plays most of his minutes in garbage time (perhaps because Manu has been playing the "real" minutes), is he supposed to not play hard - not try to score or try for a rebound or try to make an assist? If he does well with what opportunities he is given, should that be a knock on him? In short, all statpadding is not the same. I will leave it to RC to determine how much Simmons is worth to the Spurs.

Unlike most posters, I envision Dijon's replacing Tony in the SL sooner rather than later. So I do not see a real conflict between Simmons and Dijon despite their rather similar skill sets. I see Dijon playing mostly with the SL and Juice playing mostly with the second unit. Assuming Manu wants to return and he would accept a role as a 3-point specialist (a la Kerr or Horry), I see potential conflict between Manu and Mills - conflict in terms of competing for payroll dollars.

Nah I just mean that his stat padding don't mean much to me. I used the term in a blanket way bc he'd be nowhere to be found when games are contested to just show against third string players and weak defenders. That doesn't mean much to me when it comes to evaluating what he could do long term for the team. uHe's fine at his contract but if they are going to pay someone I want someone better. I don't think he's the answer personally and as that's subjective we shall just disagree.

Obviously Pop will decide what's best and he likely has to be better than he's been. He's had very much minimal production games and only scored in garbage time often... if you look at his stats they are misleading in the sense that you likely will get worse production with an increased role. I am not convinced by him long term and in a bigger role he will be bad.... my assessment.

Dijon is different. He's still learning how to play Pops game and improving areas he came into the league with deficiencies in. I think he is going to have to show solid bench play b4 he starts for real. He may get the ocasional CoJo start but it doesn't mean he's going to be starting for real yet. But his progression can be way different and considering that he's so young he can surprise me and Tony can also surprise with decline worse than what it's been so far. Dijon is not there yet so that's not happening right now.

[SAGirl]

I've got a bit of a crazy idea, kind of fell asleep and woke up with it. In the playoffs, can we just start Manu at PG against the Clippers or Warriors if we play either of those teams? Since both TP and Mills' defense sucks ass, I really think Manu can start against either of those teams and do a better job if he continues shooting the 3 ball like he has been so far this season. I think he can also play better defense on their PGs than either Mills or TP.

You can't do that bc he's almost 40 and his minutes are restricted. Like fine china Pop has to be selective when to play him when he will be most impactful.

[SAGirl]

Last season is a great example. Pop brought in KMart and gave him minutes that could have gone to Kyle and/or Simmons. KMart was mediocre at best, and probably no better than either Kyle or Simmons; however, Pop gave him those minutes simply because he was a geezer. It would have been better if Pop had given Kyle and/or Simmons those minutes, tbh.

Totally on board with that. The seeding was fixed and he could have spent that time getting his young guys to play better. Instead he gave almost 200 minutes to a player he never learned to trust bc he didn't earn it and he was the worse than Rasual Butler who was already out of the rotation. I suspected it was Tims last season even back then and in that light I take it as them taking a flyer on someone to see if he could help. He was bad and retired bc he was done. What I am talking about is different. I am talking about a FA that is not a bargain bin find. They need better guard play in general.

[Phenomanul]

You shouldn't be torn at all. The Spurs are developing players (like Simmons, who plays at his position, SG and exactly 0.4 mins less per game than Manu this season). Manu just has a relatively high usage (albeit in low minutes), simply because he's still a net positive out there. Even if Manu retires, I don't think it's automatic that, say, Murray takes his minutes. I think Murray's situation is more closely tied to what PATFO does over the summer with Patty.

What some of you need to realize is that the Spurs are not really rebuilding. Time for the younger guys will come here and there, and they need to show they've earned it. Take last season for example. The Spurs could've given more run to Kyle or Simmons, but PATFO brought in 33 years old Kevin Martin mid-season instead. If you want Pop to play the kids more, they either need to be extremely good, or wait until the team is tanking, tbh.

I've no idea what Manu is going to do, tbh, he probably doesn't know either. But it wouldn't be surprising at all if PATFO goes out there and gets another vet if he retires. They get to look at the kids plenty during the season and practice, they know what they have, what they can trot out there and not.

Also because vets are somewhat known commodities... When prospecting in said market sometimes the FO taps into a gold vein (Boris Diaw / Brent Barry / Michael Finley / Robert Horry / Kevin Willis), and sometimes they come up empty (David West / Richard Jefferson / Kevin Martin / Tracy McGrady)... other vets can't properly be gauged even if they were good fits within the Spurs' system given the plethora of other cir stances surrounding the Spurs' playoff exits - the metric by which their successes are ultimately weighed - fair or not (i.e. Andre Miller / Antonio McDyess) or injury in the case of TJ Ford.

It seems from what we are seeing out of him that David Lee will be another golden find.

[Phenomanul]

I am really torn. If he were to return next season as a strictly spot-up 3-point shooter, then I would welcome Manu back. But I do not believe Manu could curb his penchant for driving and "playmaking". I am tired of watching a Manu in denial trying to do things most nights that he simply is not capable of doing any more. He is committing more turnovers and getting blocked more at the rim. Some games I would rather see Danny handling the ball! But what really concerns me is this: I think his presence on the team will re the development of younger guys that represent the future of the Spurs. Not only does Manu seem incapable of deferring, but Pop will continue to go to him rather than develop the young guys. Having developed so few young guys through the years, the Spurs are faced with a rather difficult task of having to develop a couple (or a few) young guys all at once.

Manu's assist to TO ratio this season is roughly where it has always been for him.... is it that you are focusing too much on his playmaking when he attempts such play action that your perception has been skewered?

[sasaint]

Totally on board with that. The seeding was fixed and he could have spent that time getting his young guys to play better. Instead he gave almost 200 minutes to a player he never learned to trust bc he didn't earn it and he was the worse than Rasual Butler who was already out of the rotation. I suspected it was Tims last season even back then and in that light I take it as them taking a flyer on someone to see if he could help. He was bad and retired bc he was done. What I am talking about is different. I am talking about a FA that is not a bargain bin find. They need better guard play in general.

Yes, I know where you are coming from. What the Spurs need can only come in one of two ways. I think (hope?) that Dijon can be fast-tracked as Pop once fast-tracked Tony (who was not really any better in 2003 than Dijon is now). The only other way that the Spurs can upgrade guard play is, as you point out, via free agency or trade. Obviously a FA upgrade will only come in the offseason, which (equally obviously) will not affect the team this year. If you are like me and have a hard time with deferring gratification (), then the only way the Spurs can accomplish an upgrade this season is via trade, which I would really like to see. (We all know how likely that is.) But such a move would indicate to me that Pop is content to develop Dijon more slowly than I would like, because upgrading the guard play could only be accomplished by bringing in a guy who would be a starter ahead of Dijon for more than a year or two. I think this is a major conundrum for the Spurs.

[Ice009]

You can't do that bc he's almost 40 and his minutes are restricted. Like fine china Pop has to be selective when to play him when he will be most impactful.

I'm not saying start him and play him 35 minutes. Just start him and play him 25. I think if he keeps up this 3 point shooting, then that would be a better fit in the starting 5. He can just pass and shoot 3s. On defense is also the other main reason I'd like to start him. I think he can help set a better tone for the team than either Patty or Parker.

[sasaint]

Manu's assist to TO ratio this season is roughly where it has always been for him.... is it that you are focusing too much on his playmaking when he attempts such play action that your perception has been skewered?

I think the timing of his turnovers may make them seem qualitatively worse. But, if my perception is skewed, it may be due more to the fact that his spot-up three-point shooting is phenomenally good. That is the role in which Manu is super-efficient. By comparison the other aspects of his game are very inefficient. As I said in my original post in this thread, if Manu could be brought back as strictly a spot-up 3-point shooter, then I'm on board.

[SAGirl]

I'm not saying start him and play him 35 minutes. Just start him and play him 25. I think if he keeps up this 3 point shooting, then that would be a better fit in the starting 5. He can just pass and shoot 3s. On defense is also the other main reason I'd like to start him. I think he can help set a better tone for the team than either Patty or Parker.

The starting lineup has a top 5 player in the league. Manu is not taking the ball from him. Working Dijon in defensively, if he could be made to limit TO and mistakes is a better option. Dijon coming in and TO 3 times in 3 minutes was not a good sign... but Kawhi would make the game easier for Dijon bc he would play off the ball some. I really don't see Manu starting... using him strategically in a key moment of the game is the best option.

[bklynspursfan]

The starting lineup has a top 5 player in the league. Manu is not taking the ball from him. Working Dijon in defensively, if he could be made to limit TO and mistakes is a better option. Dijon coming in and TO 3 times in 3 minutes was not a good sign... but Kawhi would make the game easier for Dijon bc he would play off the ball some. I really don't see Manu starting... using him strategically in a key moment of the game is the best option.

I don't think he would either, but what if he's creating easier looks for him? Kawhi is great, but at times it's only he & Parker who can do anything off the dribble in that lineup. It's when sometimes we get the Kawhi who starts forcing tough shots.

It's a moot point anyway, Manu isn't going to start after all these years coming off the bench. But I don't think Manu takes the ball from him in a way that hurts Kawhi's production.

[DAF86]

I am really torn. If he were to return next season as a strictly spot-up 3-point shooter, then I would welcome Manu back. But I do not believe Manu could curb his penchant for driving and "playmaking". I am tired of watching a Manu in denial trying to do things most nights that he simply is not capable of doing any more. He is committing more turnovers and getting blocked more at the rim. Some games I would rather see Danny handling the ball! But what really concerns me is this: I think his presence on the team will re the development of younger guys that represent the future of the Spurs. Not only does Manu seem incapable of deferring, but Pop will continue to go to him rather than develop the young guys. Having developed so few young guys through the years, the Spurs are faced with a rather difficult task of having to develop a couple (or a few) young guys all at once.

If you are talking about Simmons and Anderson, they are not worth developing. They are what they are. Spurs strongly need to add another good wing.

[ElNono]

I could only speak very briefly with Manu today, there was a big contingent of ARG fans and he went to sign autographs there. By the time he came around, he was kinda in a hurry. I did tell him I hope he does come back for another season, he looked at me like it was crazy talk... this season might be it, tbh

[apalisoc_9]

I could only speak very briefly with Manu today, there was a big contingent of ARG fans and he went to sign autographs there. By the time he came around, he was kinda in a hurry. I did tell him I hope he does come back for another season, he looked at me like it was crazy talk... this season might be it, tbh

Only been to two spurs games in Toronto and not close to the huddle.

Who had the most personality in the bench?

[Ice009]

The starting lineup has a top 5 player in the league. Manu is not taking the ball from him. Working Dijon in defensively, if he could be made to limit TO and mistakes is a better option. Dijon coming in and TO 3 times in 3 minutes was not a good sign... but Kawhi would make the game easier for Dijon bc he would play off the ball some. I really don't see Manu starting... using him strategically in a key moment of the game is the best option.

He's not supposed to take the ball from him at all. If he's starting, he's supposed to space the floor better for the other guys as he's a 3 point threat, and then if Kawhi can't get anything he can pass it out to Manu to either take a shot (if it's an open three) or run some offense. The other main reason I'd also want him to start against either of those match-ups is because I think he'd also provide much better defense than either Parker or Mills.

As for DeJounte, he isn't a good enough 3 point shooter at this stage for it to work against a match-up Vs the Warriors or the Clippers. He also can't run an offense anywhere near as good as Manu. The only time I'd think of starting Murray is if you want him to attack the rim or match-up against someone defensively.

[ElNono]

Only been to two spurs games in Toronto and not close to the huddle.

Who had the most personality in the bench?

Lots of grownups on that bench, tbh... that said, Lee is always very supportive of everybody... just impressed with the guy, must be a nice teammate, tbh

[Ice009]

I could only speak very briefly with Manu today, there was a big contingent of ARG fans and he went to sign autographs there. By the time he came around, he was kinda in a hurry. I did tell him I hope he does come back for another season, he looked at me like it was crazy talk... this season might be it, tbh

Well that sucks to hear. I thought he would seriously consider coming back as he's played pretty well in limited minutes this season IMO. Very surprised if he looked at you like you were crazy to even suggest it. If Vince Carter can keep playing, then Manu certainly can too.

[ElNono]

Well that sucks to hear. I thought he would seriously consider coming back as he's played pretty well in limited minutes this season IMO. Very surprised if he looked at you like you were crazy to even suggest it. If Vince Carter can keep playing, then Manu certainly can too.

It probably means nothing, tbh... he probably won't think about that until the season is over.

[UZER]

I could only speak very briefly with Manu today, there was a big contingent of ARG fans and he went to sign autographs there. By the time he came around, he was kinda in a hurry. I did tell him I hope he does come back for another season, he looked at me like it was crazy talk... this season might be it, tbh

Good. He's done.

[Ice009]

It probably means nothing, tbh... he probably won't think about that until the season is over.

Yeah, that might be better to see what he feels like physically and mentally after the season. I think if he has the mindset going into the playoffs that this might be his last season, he could have that edge, which I think helps him play at his best.

[SAGirl]

I could only speak very briefly with Manu today, there was a big contingent of ARG fans and he went to sign autographs there. By the time he came around, he was kinda in a hurry. I did tell him I hope he does come back for another season, he looked at me like it was crazy talk... this season might be it, tbh

Thanks for sharing that tidbit Nono.

[SAGirl]

As I said I do have that #Nostradamus feeling... I had it with Tim last season too... You never know bc the last 3 seasons it could have been any of them... but I think this one is it. He might be ready... the Olympics were telling,
the blog about non basketball subjects. Etc it's a lot of tea leaves reading but I do think this one is it.