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  1. #51
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Nobody is looking at RPM as a primary measure for MVP voting the only media members that even follow advanced metrics are also the same guys who understand how they work(so they wouldn't view them incorrectly like most internet posters)..

    Narrative is the most important criteria for MVP, which has been the case for a long time..Kawhi's "narrative" case is growing with games like last night..if he has 2 huge games vs. the Warriors, he'll actually have a legit shot IMO..
    Here's my breakdown of the flaws with inference stats like RPM/RAPM:

    RPM reflects enhancements to RAPM by Engelmann, among them the use of Bayesian priors, aging curves, score of the game and extensive out-of-sample testing to improve RPM's predictive accuracy.
    If it's using Bayesian methods, it's inferring.

    Bayesian inference is a method of statistical inference in which Bayes' theorem is used to update the probability for a hypothesis as more evidence or information becomes available.
    E.g., Player A lights up scrubs in garbage time, ergo, his RPM is high, thus there's good "evidence" to hypothesize said performance over 48 minutes against starters.

    "Well, it does adjust for opposition via a type of ELO [me: I'm assuming] system."

    How can there be any legitimate statistical foundation in this sense when end-of-the-bench players might never play against a starter over the season? Even the sample sizes of bench players against starters will be insufficient to really draw any meaningful conclusions. A bench player might see his starting counterpart for only a few minutes per game. Not to mention the fact that usually in that case, the bench player is fresh while the starter might be near the end of his minute allotment for that particular quarter. So if a player like Bertans comes in and lights up Anthony Davis for three quick 3s and the Spurs increase their lead in that time frame, his RPM (for that particular segment) will be sky high. But it would be foolish to extrapolate that impact over 48 minutes, which RPM does, even when it supposedly "adjusts." It's blind to game conditions and context.

    Again, this works fine for something like a drug trial: "These 1000 patients randomly selected from the general population showed a 70% improvement in arthritis after the 30 day trial. From this [Bayesian data crunching ensues], we can safely estimate the efficacy of the drug to be in the range demonstrated during the trial."

    But sports aren't a laboratory environment where variables are kept relatively constant. In the drug trial example, every patient had arthritis and took the same drug for the same amount of time. Of course there's variables like age, disease severity, and so on, but at the end of the day, they all interacted with the drug in the same exact way. Kawhi and Kyle Andersen don't "interact" with Lebron James in any similar way. If Anderson does come in to play against Lebron, the conditions will be vastly different from when Kawhi was playing against him. And furthermore, Anderson's sample size will be insufficient to draw any meaningful conclusion about his "real" value. Bench players don't interact with the starters in the same way, and so on.

    The RPM model sifts through more than 230,000 possessions each NBA season to tease apart the "real" plus-minus effects attributable to each player, employing techniques similar to those used by scientific researchers when they need to model the effects of numerous variables at the same time.
    Again, many of those "variables" do not interact with each other enough to even attempt to "model" anything. It's a highly speculative exercise.

    Criticism of Bayes' Theorem:

    As described in the article and in lecture, the theorem is used to calculate the conditional probability of an event usually in light of some newly discovered evidence. We have applied the formula to simple scenarios such as drawing balls from urns or choosing a good restaurant, and in both situations probabilities were given. In these cases, Bayes’ theorem is a definite truth and logical conclusions can be drawn easily from the results. However, the problems with Bayes’ theorem begin to manifest themselves when it comes to real life, complex situations, and this is also where the theorem runs into a fair amount of critics.

    When applied to the real world, Bayes’ theorem is entirely based off an initial hypothesis. In order to establish this hypothesis though, one must assign some initial probability to it before they can continue adding new evidence to carry out the formula. As such, many argue that Bayes’ theorem is not as much a definite probability as it is a subjective assumption.
    The last sentence raises the central issue. A sporting event simply isn't controlled enough (i.e. like a lab experiment) to even begin to develop a complete enough initial hypothesis to work from. Sample sizes also aren't large enough to effectively evaluate player value. Further issues manifest when you take into consideration that a basketball team is more whole than discreet (i.e whole greater than the sum of its parts). This is why I don't really have a problem with advanced team stats, but I think it's nigh-impossible to tease out individual player value in this context using inference and probabilistic methods. This is why I'm becoming more in favor of "hard" mathematical stats for player evaluation rather than subjective "advanced stats." Even "number stats" like PER are subjective, since it can't really quantify the value of assists.

    Now in order to have a solid logical foundation to work from regarding "hard" stats, we need to figure out what wins basketball games (from a mathematical point-of-view). Shooting percentage vis a vis PPG and Usage can be a good indicator. We've seen throughout NBA history that successful teams often have efficient volume scorers (relative to the NBA average).

    I also think more value needs to placed on where a player does his scoring. Effective paint scoring has long been a hallmark of great teams, so I think a 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points in the paint is more valuable than 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points on mid-range jumpshots. A stat that needs to be created relative this is a "Score off miss" stat. Intuition tells me it's easier to trigger fast breaks off missed jumpshots than it is off missed paint shots. But of course a good team defense can cover up the flaws in the former, which again, speaks to the difficulty of isolating performance in a fluid team sport like basketball.

    I also think defense and playmaking will remain largely immeasurable and are better evaluated by the eye test.
    Last edited by midnightpulp; 03-08-2017 at 02:07 AM.

  2. #52
    Wolf Ruvinskis tonight...you's Avatar
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    Here's my breakdown of the flaws with inference stats like RPM/RAPM:



    If it's using Bayesian methods, it's inferring.



    E.g., Player A lights up scrubs in garbage time, ergo, his RPM is high, thus there's good "evidence" to hypothesize said performance over 48 minutes against starters.

    "Well, it does adjust for opposition via a type of ELO [me: I'm assuming] system."

    How can there be any legitimate statistical foundation in this sense when end-of-the-bench players might never play against a starter over the season? Even the sample sizes of bench players against starters will be insufficient to really draw any meaningful conclusions. A bench player might see his starting counterpart for only a few minutes per game. Not to mention the fact that usually in that case, the bench player is fresh while the starter might be near the end of his minute allotment for that particular quarter. So if a player like Bertans comes in and lights up Anthony Davis for three quick 3s and the Spurs increase their lead in that time frame, his RPM (for that particular segment) will be sky high. But it would be foolish to extrapolate that impact over 48 minutes, which RPM does, even when it supposedly "adjusts." It's blind to game conditions and context.

    Again, this works fine for something like a drug trial: "These 1000 patients randomly selected from the general population showed a 70% improvement in arthritis after the 30 day trial. From this [Bayesian data crunching ensues], we can safely estimate the efficacy of the drug to be in the range demonstrated during the trial."

    But sports aren't a laboratory environment where variables are kept relatively constant. In the drug trial example, every patient had arthritis and took the same drug for the same amount of time. Of course there's variables like age, disease severity, and so on, but at the end of the day, they all interacted with the drug in the same exact way. Kawhi and Kyle Andersen don't "interact" with Lebron James in any similar way. If Anderson does come in to play against Lebron, the conditions will be vastly different from when Kawhi was playing against him. And furthermore, Anderson's sample size will be insufficient to draw any meaningful conclusion about his "real" value. Bench players don't interact with the starters in the same way, and so on.



    Again, many of those "variables" do not interact with each other enough to even attempt to "model" anything. It's a highly speculative exercise.

    Criticism of Bayes' Theorem:



    The last sentence raises the central issue. A sporting event simply isn't controlled enough (i.e. like a lab experiment) to even to begin to develop a complete enough initial hypothesis to work off of. Sample sizes also aren't large enough to effectively evaluate player value. Further issues manifest when you take into consideration that a basketball team is more whole than discreet (i.e whole greater than the sum of its parts). This is why I don't really have a problem with advanced team stats, but I think it's nigh-impossible to tease out individual player value in this context using inference and probabilistic methods. This is why I'm becoming more in favor of "hard" mathematical stats for player evaluation rather than subjective "advanced stats." Even "number stats" like PER are subjective, since it can't really quantify the value of assists.

    Now in order to have a solid logical foundation to work from regarding "hard" stats, we need to figure out what wins basketball games (from a mathematical point-of-view). Shooting percentage vis a vis PPG and Usage can be a good indicator. We've seen throughout NBA history that successful teams often have efficient volume scorers (relative to the NBA average).

    I also think more value needs to placed on where a player does his scoring. Effective paint scoring has long been a hallmark of great teams, so I think a 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points in the paint is more valuable than 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points on mid-range jumpshots. A stat that needs to be created relative this is a "Score off miss" stat. Intuition tells me it's easier to trigger fast breaks off missed jumpshots than it is off missed paint shots. But of course a good team defense can cover up the flaws in the former, which again, speaks to the difficulty of isolating performance in a fluid team sport like basketball.

    I also think defense and playmaking will remain largely immeasurable and better evaluated by the eye test.
    Great info... Wow.

  3. #53
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    - Historic statistical achievement(averaging a triple double)

    It's usually a combination of those traits, the last one being least relevant, since it doesn't occur very often IMO..

    Not sure what way you mean that. It's not usually relevant, since it doesn't happen? For sure. But when it does, it's a big deal. Averaging a triple double is really similar to when Sosa and McGwire were fighting to beat the home run record that everyone thought was untouchable. Nobody thought that averaging a triple double could ever be done again. That's easy to hype.

    Westbrook is sitting on exactly 10.0 AST/Game. If he slips just a little, it will be like the Spurs going 41-1 at home last year - a footnote. If he hangs on to the triple double, Kawhi is going to have to make a real statement in this series of games to overcome that story.

  4. #54
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Also, RPM doesn't seem to have a significant advantage over PER (no, I'm not trying to claim PER is a be-all/end stat) in "predictive value."

    http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

    http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

    Personally, PER seems to be more accurate this season. It rates Leonard 4 spots higher than RPM (which I think has been vastly underrating Kawhi this season). I would take Westbrook over CP3 all day/everyday. Jimmy Butler and Lowry are also more accurately rated. And Raymond doesn't show up until page 2, which I also think is accurate, since what Raymond does is heavily reliant on Golden State's overall team make up and scheme. Raymond isn't a "plug and play" player, meaning you could throw him on the Lakers and expect the same performance.

    I know the counter-argument here is that RPM is simply evaluating what value a player has to their particular team, but I've never read such. Its goal seems to be an attempt to quantify absolute player value in a vacuum. I mean, GMs seem to take these metrics seriously as such, since nice contracts are handed out to "undervalued" players all the time.

    I'm not saying the stat doesn't have some validity, but it's really not much better than past advanced stats.

    Ergo:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Award

  5. #55
    Believe. Em-City's Avatar
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    At some point team record has to take precedence, no?..Spurs (likely) going to blow out the Cavs/Rockets' out of water..we could be talking about a ridiculous 8-9 games difference in the standings in the end..that's no joke.....Lebron is still a better player, but you have to reward a lone All Star leading a team to mid 60-win total the year after their greatest player left the scene..
    Here's my breakdown of the flaws with inference stats like RPM/RAPM:



    If it's using Bayesian methods, it's inferring.



    E.g., Player A lights up scrubs in garbage time, ergo, his RPM is high, thus there's good "evidence" to hypothesize said performance over 48 minutes against starters.

    "Well, it does adjust for opposition via a type of ELO [me: I'm assuming] system."

    How can there be any legitimate statistical foundation in this sense when end-of-the-bench players might never play against a starter over the season? Even the sample sizes of bench players against starters will be insufficient to really draw any meaningful conclusions. A bench player might see his starting counterpart for only a few minutes per game. Not to mention the fact that usually in that case, the bench player is fresh while the starter might be near the end of his minute allotment for that particular quarter. So if a player like Bertans comes in and lights up Anthony Davis for three quick 3s and the Spurs increase their lead in that time frame, his RPM (for that particular segment) will be sky high. But it would be foolish to extrapolate that impact over 48 minutes, which RPM does, even when it supposedly "adjusts." It's blind to game conditions and context.

    Again, this works fine for something like a drug trial: "These 1000 patients randomly selected from the general population showed a 70% improvement in arthritis after the 30 day trial. From this [Bayesian data crunching ensues], we can safely estimate the efficacy of the drug to be in the range demonstrated during the trial."

    But sports aren't a laboratory environment where variables are kept relatively constant. In the drug trial example, every patient had arthritis and took the same drug for the same amount of time. Of course there's variables like age, disease severity, and so on, but at the end of the day, they all interacted with the drug in the same exact way. Kawhi and Kyle Andersen don't "interact" with Lebron James in any similar way. If Anderson does come in to play against Lebron, the conditions will be vastly different from when Kawhi was playing against him. And furthermore, Anderson's sample size will be insufficient to draw any meaningful conclusion about his "real" value. Bench players don't interact with the starters in the same way, and so on.



    Again, many of those "variables" do not interact with each other enough to even attempt to "model" anything. It's a highly speculative exercise.

    Criticism of Bayes' Theorem:



    The last sentence raises the central issue. A sporting event simply isn't controlled enough (i.e. like a lab experiment) to even begin to develop a complete enough initial hypothesis to work from. Sample sizes also aren't large enough to effectively evaluate player value. Further issues manifest when you take into consideration that a basketball team is more whole than discreet (i.e whole greater than the sum of its parts). This is why I don't really have a problem with advanced team stats, but I think it's nigh-impossible to tease out individual player value in this context using inference and probabilistic methods. This is why I'm becoming more in favor of "hard" mathematical stats for player evaluation rather than subjective "advanced stats." Even "number stats" like PER are subjective, since it can't really quantify the value of assists.

    Now in order to have a solid logical foundation to work from regarding "hard" stats, we need to figure out what wins basketball games (from a mathematical point-of-view). Shooting percentage vis a vis PPG and Usage can be a good indicator. We've seen throughout NBA history that successful teams often have efficient volume scorers (relative to the NBA average).

    I also think more value needs to placed on where a player does his scoring. Effective paint scoring has long been a hallmark of great teams, so I think a 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points in the paint is more valuable than 25 ppg/50% player who scores 40% of his points on mid-range jumpshots. A stat that needs to be created relative this is a "Score off miss" stat. Intuition tells me it's easier to trigger fast breaks off missed jumpshots than it is off missed paint shots. But of course a good team defense can cover up the flaws in the former, which again, speaks to the difficulty of isolating performance in a fluid team sport like basketball.

    I also think defense and playmaking will remain largely immeasurable and are better evaluated by the eye test.
    Dope post... Thanks.

  6. #56
    Winner in a losers circle 140's Avatar
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    seriously

    just another one of mid's ty takes.

  7. #57
    Veteran bklynspursfan's Avatar
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    It's kind of disturbing how much truth there is to this. Amin El-Hassan straight up said this on Sportscenter this morning. Basically said ' if Westbrook maintains his triple-double average he's my MVP if not it's Kawhi'. A couple of tenths of an average shouldn't determine an award like this smh.
    really shouldnt... i bet he's not the only one thinking like that

  8. #58
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Westbrook is averaging 10.0 apg exactly, so if that drops below 10, I would assume most voters would bump him down.
    It's kind of disturbing how much truth there is to this. Amin El-Hassan straight up said this on Sportscenter this morning. Basically said ' if Westbrook maintains his triple-double average he's my MVP if not it's Kawhi'. A couple of tenths of an average shouldn't determine an award like this smh.
    Oh, . I got lazy and didn't read the whole thread. I didn't know you'd already said that.

    You're right, a few tenths shouldn't decide. But I think we all know that they won't be able to resist pimping a "historic achievement".

    Here's a fun scenario: Imagine what happens if Harden comes up with an average of something like 9.95 AST/Game, and media outlets round up and give him credit for averaging a triple double for a whole season. And THEN they give him the MVP.

    SASmith and all the other screaming jackass "analysts" would have a field day - on both sides of the argument.

  9. #59
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    PER in 2017

  10. #60
    wemby enjoyer 100%duncan's Avatar
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    oh ing well

  11. #61
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    don't worry, rpm is not based on Big Data.

  12. #62
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    You missed the point.

    Again, RPM doesn't seem to be ranking players any more accurately than PER. I'll concede RPM is better for ranking undervalued players who don't fill up the stat sheets (your 3 and D guys and the like), but on/off has done just a good of job there as RPM has for over a decade.

  13. #63
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You missed the point.

    Again, RPM doesn't seem to be ranking players any more accurately than PER. I'll concede RPM is better for ranking undervalued players who don't fill up the stat sheets (your 3 and D guys and the like), but on/off has done just a good of job there as RPM has for over a decade.
    PER takes raw box score numbers and plugs it into a formula... there's no analytics to it. the only credit you get for defense is steals and blocks

  14. #64
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    PER takes raw box score numbers and plugs it into a formula... there's no analytics to it. the only credit you get for defense is steals and blocks
    It is still considered an "advanced" stat.

    If you read the thread, I pretty much concede that defense is largely immeasurable. The eye test is better for evaluation on that end.

    And again, missing the point. RAPM/RPM are supposed to be these fancy new data driven stats, and yet they don't seem to have much of any explanatory power over PER or the IBM stat that was created in the 80's. I don't mind RPM being used in conjunction with the 1000 other basketball stats, but it's by no means the stat.
    Last edited by midnightpulp; 03-09-2017 at 12:25 AM.

  15. #65
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    Kawhi needs 5 straight 40 point game to steal the MVP from harden!!

  16. #66
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    It is still considered an "advanced" stat.

    If you read the thread, I pretty much concede that defense is largely immeasurable. The eye test is better for evaluation on that end.

    And again, missing the point. RAPM/RPM are supposed to be those fancy new data driven stats, and yet they don't seem to have much of any explanatory power over PER or the IBM stat that was created in the 80's. I don't mind RPM being used in conjunction with the 1000 other basketball stats, but it's by no means the stat.
    i think think PER is complete crap. it's literally plug and chug and based on stats that were arbitrarily chosen to be important indicators with no context...

    it's like passer rating in the NFL, but at least passing can largely summarized by those handfuls of stats (completions, attempts, yards, TD's, INT's)... the only things that aren't factored into passer rating are things like drops

    basketball stats require MUCH more complex than NFL stats, because it's much less structured

  17. #67
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    i think think PER is complete crap. it's literally plug and chug and based on stats that were arbitrarily chosen to be important indicators with no context...

    it's like passer rating in the NFL, but at least passing can largely summarized by those handfuls of stats (completions, attempts, yards, TD's, INT's)... the only things that aren't factored into passer rating are things like drops

    basketball stats require MUCH more complex than NFL stats, because it's much less structured
    All stats are.

    A stat proves its worth if it can correlate, and PER does correlate with other stats, overall team success, and "perception" (i.e. which players are said to be the best via the eye test).

    RPM correlates, too. But not any better than stats we've had for 30 years, which is why I'm no longer enamored with it.

  18. #68
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    win shares work better than PER...

  19. #69
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    win shares work better than PER...
    Per 48, I assume?

    A player on great team who had a long career will have racked up a load of WS (e.g. John Stockton).

  20. #70
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Per 48, I assume?

    A player on great team who had a long career will have racked up a load of WS (e.g. John Stockton).
    yeah, i mean you can look at win shares to compare specific seasons... w/s per 48 to compare trends of different lengths

  21. #71
    Believe.
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    At some point team record has to take precedence, no?..Spurs (likely) going to blow out the Cavs/Rockets' out of water..we could be talking about a ridiculous 8-9 games difference in the standings in the end..that's no joke.....Lebron is still a better player, but you have to reward a lone All Star leading a team to mid 60-win total the year after their greatest player left the scene..
    no. mvp is highest scorer on best team, in most cases and levels. this is a problem. mvp should go to best all around player

  22. #72
    Believe.
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    All stats are.

    A stat proves its worth if it can correlate, and PER does correlate with other stats, overall team success, and "perception" (i.e. which players are said to be the best via the eye test).

    RPM correlates, too. But not any better than stats we've had for 30 years, which is why I'm no longer enamored with it.
    stats lack context= the problem with stats and especially with trying to use stats objectively when they are created and depend on others.

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