Bill Simmons and Zache Lowe on the Spurs

[Spur|n|Austin]

Good listen, thanks for posting.

[diego]

That 2004 Team USA squad was a world juggernaut. Only Argentina could've beaten that dream team, oh wait.....



Future HOF, Carlos Arroyo, did it

That team had two former mvps, all NBA and all Stars in Marbury and marion, a couple roys in amaré and Lebron, coys in brown and pop... You're comparing regular season with playoffs, Arroyo has never eliminated the US from a gold medal, Argentina did it twice, at home in Indianapolis (a team that also had a bunch of all Stars and all NBA players like j. O'Neal, Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce), then at the Olympics where the "real" team was gonna show. Roster wise, that 04 team would be a contender in just about any season, nevermind in the Olympics playing against athletically inferior opponents. It could have been better but it's a huge exaggeration to imply they were terrible rosters either in 04 or 02.

[Vic Petro]

The Rockets are damn good, but they want no part of the Spurs.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm not saying is blasphemous to say Harden > Ginobili. I just don't think it's fair to have as a foregone conclusion that Harden is without a doubt a "much, much better" player than Manu ever was.

Do you think Simmons would be saying this if Harden was still the 6th man in OKC? Of course he wouldn't. And I'm sure the same would happen if Manu would have had the chance to prove himself as a number one option on an NBA team.

Take the stats out of the window for a moment and just think about Manu's and Harden's games. What does Harden do that prime Manu wasn't able to do?

-Elite rim attack and finishing? Check.
-Getting to the line? Check.
-Elite passing and playmaking? Check.
-3pt shooting? Check.
-3pt shooting off the dribble? Check.

If anything, the big difference I can find between the two is on defense and is in favour of Manu, tbrh.

The only knock on Manu could be the stamina/durability thing, but imho that has always been overblown.

Great points

I wouldn't say much much better, I just meant better.

Ginobili was also much more of a wizard on the court than Harden is. Harden is a good playmaker but some of the passes Ginobili I still can't wrap my head around to this day.

[spurs10]

I'll do my best. This world frightens and confuses me, you've machines that fly, but one thing I do know is Kawhi is MVP.

You are so right Bill, this world is relentlessly cruel, but Kawhi is indeed MVP.

[FkLA]

Harden has yet to perform on the big stage like Prime Manu did. He choked in the Finals with OKC and Houston's best playoff run since he joined them was ignited by Josh Smith and with Harden off the floor.

Its definitely dumb to already call him much much better than Ginobili.

[rjv]

Being a better player does not mean that you're putting up better stats. I'd argue that Patty and Danny are better than they were three years ago because their IQs have gone up while they haven't physically declined. LMA is iffy, because he hasn't really shown any signs that he can still explode for more than one game in a stretch. Obviously, Anderson/Simmons are better, and Lee will likely play his current role better than he played his old one.

More importantly, I don't get why this is a standard to measure anything. The Medium Three era Spurs would have beaten any team in a series today. They had everything but a consistently dominant front-court player. They don't have to beat at that level to beat Houston. They're going to struggle to find reliable scoring in the playoffs, and Harden's been the only "reliable" one against the Spurs so far -- and that's with Pop often putting Simmons and Manu on him for long stretches. They aren't built for playoff dominance.

, this Houston team is no where near as talented as the suns teams D'Antonio couldn't win with a decade ago. And just like that Suns team, this Rockets team can't get stops when they need them.

[Budkin]

Simmons and his "I thought Harden was going to be the next Ginobili but he ended up being much, much better" comment, tbh.

How do you know Harden "ended up being much, much better"? Just because he got traded and went from being a 6th man to having the chance of getting all those 1st option gaudy stats? What does Harden do "much, much better" than prime Manu? Attack the basket, shoot the 3, pass the ball, rebound, defend?

This. I think it's because he does the cooking thing.

[rjv]

This. I think it's because he does the cooking thing.

not to mention Harden would have been a about coming off the bench.

[100%duncan]

Doesn't take a genius mind to come to a take that this year's lma is nowhere near being a #2 for a championship team

[NameLess Scrub]

That team had two former mvps, all NBA and all Stars in Marbury and marion, a couple roys in amaré and Lebron, coys in brown and pop... You're comparing regular season with playoffs, Arroyo has never eliminated the US from a gold medal, Argentina did it twice, at home in Indianapolis (a team that also had a bunch of all Stars and all NBA players like j. O'Neal, Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce), then at the Olympics where the "real" team was gonna show. Roster wise, that 04 team would be a contender in just about any season, nevermind in the Olympics playing against athletically inferior opponents. It could have been better but it's a huge exaggeration to imply they were terrible rosters either in 04 or 02.

Arroyo couldn't get going in the NBA, but he was always a good international player.
Also, PR's team had some good years from 2002-2004. They just ended up choking later in the tournaments, and then went back down the next cycle.

For me it has always been about exploitable weaknesses. USA's 2004 lacked shooting (like a team of Lebricks). Once they balanced the team again, they started ruining FIBA again.

[Horse]

Our last game against Houston was a perfect microcosm of how their season will end.

[diego]

Arroyo couldn't get going in the NBA, but he was always a good international player.
Also, PR's team had some good years from 2002-2004. They just ended up choking later in the tournaments, and then went back down the next cycle.

For me it has always been about exploitable weaknesses. USA's 2004 lacked shooting (like a team of Lebricks). Once they balanced the team again, they started ruining FIBA again.

Yeah that PR team had enough size to not get obliterated on the boards / in the paint and Arroyo was an NBA caliber player. Just pointing out that winning the first game of the regular season isn't anywhere near the same as an elimination game.

Americans love to dismiss those rosters, but from 2000-2006 most of those players were all NBA, all Stars, all defensive, important players for their teams etc. Like Rj, boozer, Odom, all not good enough for the 04 team, but when rj came to the Spurs fans were busting a nut, boozer and Odom both played big roles on playoff teams that made deep runs, etc. Even Marbury who is so easy to laugh at and dismiss now, once upon a time he was a 2x all NBA, 2x all star. The 06 team too. Any one of those teams, 02, 04, 06, if they were NBA franchises they would be favorites to win in just about any NBA season, they came up short because of poor chemistry / fit and heroic performances in single game elimination from Argentina and Greece who in terms of talent, size, athleticism were thoroughly outclassed. The US always has a size / athletic advantage over other teams but 02-06 it wasn't enough, they weren't smart enough / played hard enough to make it count, add shaky shooting and single elimination and upsets happened.

[NameLess Scrub]

Yeah that PR team had enough size to not get obliterated on the boards / in the paint and Arroyo was an NBA caliber player. Just pointing out that winning the first game of the regular season isn't anywhere near the same as an elimination game.

Americans love to dismiss those rosters, but from 2000-2006 most of those players were all NBA, all Stars, all defensive, important players for their teams etc. Like Rj, boozer, Odom, all not good enough for the 04 team, but when rj came to the Spurs fans were busting a nut, boozer and Odom both played big roles on playoff teams that made deep runs, etc. Even Marbury who is so easy to laugh at and dismiss now, once upon a time he was a 2x all NBA, 2x all star. The 06 team too. Any one of those teams, 02, 04, 06, if they were NBA franchises they would be favorites to win in just about any NBA season, they came up short because of poor chemistry / fit and heroic performances in single game elimination from Argentina and Greece who in terms of talent, size, athleticism were thoroughly outclassed. The US always has a size / athletic advantage over other teams but 02-06 it wasn't enough, they weren't smart enough / played hard enough to make it count, add shaky shooting and single elimination and upsets happened.

Completely agree