Is Simmons playing his way off the team?

[TheGreatYacht]

I would rather have a ring chaser that can shoot for the vet minimum than Simmons for the money he's going to get. To fill the athletic young quota draft a couple of wings with a higher celing than Simmons, imho.

Sign TOSB scrubs so Manu can still get playing time. I see what you're doing

[DAF86]

Sign TOSB scrubs so Manu can still get playing time. I see what you're doing

I would rather have Manu back for the vet min, than sign Simmons for the money he's going to get, yes.

[ErnestLynch]

What does he get paid this offseason.

I'm starting to get scared.

At least his cap hold is low

Relax. Pop likes Simmons. I like Simmons, have from the 1st time I watched him. I've sat by and read the Simmons hate posts and I just laughed. At least I convinced everyone at the local pub and my neighbors that he was the . He's Bruce Bowen. Just needs to get that perimeter shooting down and he's gold but he IS the Spurs best defender. Yeah I said it. lol all you want. He's strong, fast, mentally tough, disciplined and smart. How that dude slipped through the cracks of the NBA for so long is beyond me. That's an indictment I suppose, of the college draft system. The Spurs know this all too well. The top first round players in the draft were great...in college. NBA is a whole other ballgame and thank your lucky stars the Spurs have been well aware of this for a loooong time. Sure, they got their two cherry picks but overall, 1st round means jack to the Spurs barring being...Tim Duncan or David Robinson.

I digress. What the Spurs need to do, and I believe what they WILL do, is play Simmons and Leonard more together for the defense. Houston was a one trick pony. GS is not so ...they'll both get huge minutes and what we need JS for is he has that moment...where you can almost see the wheels turn in his head and he says to himself, 'I've had enough of this here...' and he goes strong. Spurs need more of that cat against GS. And above all, for his experience level, what I've always liked about him...and first let me point out his path where many would be intimidated he's done quite the opposite...not questioning whether or not he belongs but...HERE I AM. Now, as time goes on, and we may be there now, those other guys start to 'pay attention'.
You cease being a 'nobody'. But I don't think that will matter, because I think he's got what it takes. Hey, he never lost faith in himself. He knew what he could do. 'I've been waiting for this my whole life.'

Don't fool yourself. Pop LOVES this 'kid'. He's our new Manu. He ain't going anywhere.

[urunobili]

I doubt that very much but we shall see.
It doesn't make sense for him to take a short deal bc he's going to be 28 and never gotten paid $. His game depends on elite athleticism. IMO he needs to go for the big contract right now. Frankly, there might not be another, considering. It makes no sense whatsoever to give discounts at his age and situation. He needs to get paid right now.

Thanks SAGirl

Do you think he'll command something like 11-14M in the open market for 4 years plus team option for the 5th?

[SAGirl]

Is Simmons really a Manu replacement, though? I understand that was the goal when he showed promise in year 1, but his playmaking is very poor and he was extremely inefficient at scoring, all year, despite playing against bench players and scrubs..

The only consistent facet of his game has been his defense, where he's one of the best in the league at his position..

I do think Spurs want him back.
But I also think they have contingencies if he's above a price range they can accept. In fact I think they built contingencies for both Mills and Simmons just in case (Forbes and Hanga). They probably want to retain their original as the facsimiles are not as good and/or won't be as good bc both Mills and Simmons were developed for years and are now in their primes with real NBA experience and experience matters a lot, but it's just unknown what some guy can be offered in FA nowadays in terms of roles (starting gigs, one never knows, crazy money... heh Spurs wanted to keep Boban and had to let him go, Manu was offered $16 mill or something while the Spurs started their bid at $5 mill from what I recall last offseason). It's just difficult to predict.

Simmons was really inefficient all season. He's streaky and can just be getting hot at the right time. But it's also possible he was held back bc the Spurs didn't need this from him previously and so many other bench players were ahead of him in shot opportunities and role. I think some team is going to bet on that.... the fact this team with an MVP at the wings in Kawhi and established wings in Danny and a HoF in Manu wasn't going to give that many chances to Simmons. Difficult to predict IMO.

I am rambling... but bottom line: I do think he's getting paid.

[FkLA]

Wow, maybe you are right. But if that's so, it seems like (thankfully) a pretty rare and bizarre character for a pro athlete.

I don't think it's that uncommon, actually. Plenty of players in the NBA are more concerned with the lifestyle and status that comes with being in the league than with actually being a consummate professional. Harden just stands out because he's so good, but honestly you can probably run down most rosters and find a couple of guys who's passion for the game is lacking just as much as Harden. They just aren't under a microscope bc they aren't top players. I think even most players that have shown professionalism, passion, and a desire to win are still concerned with the fame and status that comes with being a pro athlete (guys like Wade, Shaq, Kirby, Parker, Donkey, etc).

The rare ones are guys like Tim, Manu, Dirk, Kawhi who dedicate their lives to the sport and seemingly don't give a about anything other than being great at their job and winning.

[SAGirl]

Thanks SAGirl

Do you think he'll command something like 11-14M in the open market for 4 years plus team option for the 5th?

I am really unsure but I think the minimum for him is a 3 year contract. I just keep coming back to the fact that he's old now to be gambling years away. I can't predict the range of what he will get bc it takes just one team to believe in one guy the way Dallas went after Harrison Barnes with a max deal... and previously had done the same with Chandler Parsons. I am unsure to be fair.

[ErnestLynch]

Thanks SAGirl

Do you think he'll command something like 11-14M in the open market for 4 years plus team option for the 5th?

Manu is gone, Tony very likely. A great deal depends on how these ..hopefully...two series play out. But from here on, they're going to need his defense. If it proves valuable enough, they'll make room for him. To a degree, his fate is in the hands of how our PG Parker replacements perform. They may have a more pressing issue. We shall see.

[ErnestLynch]

Simmons was really inefficient all season.

Yeah but...BUT...when they are playing is important to factor in. Over reliance on stats is fools gold, expecially for younger players without a lot of stats to go by. That's for fans and sports journalist and playing trivia at the bar. As much as 'they' like to say sports is a science it's really not. There have been great scorers in every sport, but can you score, can you turn it on at the right time in the right situation ? Not all stats are equal. That's the beauty of a Popovich press conference. 'Why did this happen ?' Pop, ..what he really wants to say is, ' I don't know. What the , it's sports.'

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Manu either retires or comes back for the vet minimum.

I am guessing they talk to Pau and work out a longer term deal that pays less yearly but over more years and he opts out and re-signs. Something like 3 years - $21 billion that gets him the same cash as he was due next year but also some more cash for stringing it out. Then his cap hit goes from 16.2 down to like 6-7 mil, giving us more room to get Simmons, Dedmon, and Patty back.

You figure they don't exercise their option on Forbes, and wait another year on Milutinov, which frees up another 1.5 million or so (hey, pennies count right?).

Do all that and that looks to put them 14 million under the cap and 34 million or so under the projected lux tax. Hopefully that all works under cap law and the dollar figures would be amendable to the players.

Depending on the recovery prognosis with Parker there could be an option there where he either retires and they string him out, or going after a DPE next spring.

[SAGirl]

Yeah but...BUT...when they are playing is important to factor in. Over reliance on stats is fools gold, expecially for younger players without a lot of stats to go by. That's for fans and sports journalist and playing trivia at the bar. As much as 'they' like to say sports is a science it's really not. There have been great scorers in every sport, but can you score, can you turn it on at the right time in the right situation ? Not all stats are equal. That's the beauty of a Popovich press conference. 'Why did this happen ?' Pop, ..what he really wants to say is, ' I don't know. What the , it's sports.'

I am not criticizing him. If you read the rest of my post you realize I said something similar in different words... less embellished. He didn't have his pick of shots, etc. He shared the court with high usage perimeter guys in Mills and Manu.. Manu especially being ball dominant and Mills lately wanting to evolve into a playmaker. They also used Lee and lately Pau, and even Lamarcus to run stuff through. ... no need to argue with me.
Also, i will point out, he had very little plays called for him.. other than PnR, and learning to make reads out of that.

[MaNu4Tres]

If I'm SA, and if I had to choose whether to pay Simmons 8-10 mil per or Patty 15-17 mil per. I choose Simmons hands down. His skillset on both ends of the floor is a rare commodity in the league.

I hope SA can keep him and sign him to a 3 year deal to replace Manu. There's no other better SG on the market for the money on both ends of the floor.

Keep Simmons, bring over Hanga, and give Murray the keys.

Kawhi, Green, Murray, Simmons, Hanga at the wing/backcourt for the next 3-4 years would be pretty nice.

Will Patty take another paycut to stay? If not, what are cheaper/value 1+1 plug ins to have for a year until SA has TP/Gasol off the books? Shelvin Mack - Collison?

[MaNu4Tres]

Is Simmons really a Manu replacement, though? I understand that was the goal when he showed promise in year 1, but his playmaking is very poor and he was extremely inefficient at scoring, all year, despite playing against bench players and scrubs..

The only consistent facet of his game has been his defense, where he's one of the best in the league at his position..

Harlem, what we need to come to realize is that there will never be a perfect Manu replacement. There will never be another Manu that can bring what he brought on both ends and be the elite scorer he was.

Once we come to realize that, then we will realize that Simmons is probably the best the Spurs can do to replace Manu's role. What option is better than Simmons on the open market? When I say better, I mean overall on both ends for the money.

[Seventyniner]

If Manu retires, Simmons can totally be the backup SG. But he would need a playmaking PG next to him, kind of like Danny. Simmons actually kind of reminds me of DeRozan on offense except that he isn't as talented or as much of a black hole.

Mills being on the roster would complicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is for Mills to be like Derek Fisher and Danny to be like Rick Fox, with Kawhi playing the Kobe "wing that does everything" role. Obviously Aldridge is nowhere near as dominant as Shaq so the blueprint is probably busted from the get-go. I'm having trouble remembering elite teams with PGs that don't really have a playmaking role. The Heatles are close, but Wade was a much better playmaker than Danny.

This is making me miss Diaw 2.0. Aldridge/Good Diaw/Leonard/Green/Mills could wreck almost any team.

The other complication is that last summer the Spurs seemed to be gearing up for lots of cap space in 2018. How much of that space are the Spurs willing to sacrifice to keep guys like Simmons, Mills, and Dedmon? Parker's injury has really thrown off the plan, he's going to clog up a lot of cap space this year and will throw the PG rotation into disarray when he returns.

[rjv]

I think they will try to keep him too.
We shall see.
I think they want Patty as well.
In fact it looks like a stand pat situation.. team got to the WCF and from here on out, things are gravy. They are not fully healthy and GSW was going to be tough regardless... so I am now more inclined to think Spurs want to keep their most important FA this offseason than go chasing waterfalls... (for better or worse).

yeah, i think the one unknown variable is tony (and the maturation of DJ's game). if we had lost to the rockets i think there would have been a greater inclination to seek out CP3 but that seems less urgent now. of course, it's really how we fare against GS that will decide what roster moves would be needed.

[MaNu4Tres]

If Manu retires, Simmons can totally be the backup SG. But he would need a playmaking PG next to him, kind of like Danny. Simmons actually kind of reminds me of DeRozan on offense except that he isn't as talented or as much of a black hole.

Mills being on the roster would complicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is for Mills to be like Derek Fisher and Danny to be like Rick Fox, with Kawhi playing the Kobe "wing that does everything" role. Obviously Aldridge is nowhere near as dominant as Shaq so the blueprint is probably busted from the get-go. I'm having trouble remembering elite teams with PGs that don't really have a playmaking role. The Heatles are close, but Wade was a much better playmaker than Danny.

This is making me miss Diaw 2.0. Aldridge/Good Diaw/Leonard/Green/Mills could wreck almost any team.

The other complication is that last summer the Spurs seemed to be gearing up for lots of cap space in 2018. How much of that space are the Spurs willing to sacrifice to keep guys like Simmons, Mills, and Dedmon? Parker's injury has really thrown off the plan, he's going to clog up a lot of cap space this year and will throw the PG rotation into disarray when he returns.

I'd be surprised if Spurs keep BOTH Mills and Simmons. Both are at the time in their careers where they have to value the money more than anything IMO. Both are heading to 30 years old soon and need to get as much money as they can, while they can. This is likely both of their last shot at a big payday. Remember, Patty got screwed last time when he was a free agent and took way under his market value because of his shoulder injury. Is he willing to take ANOTHER paycut when this is his last opportunity at a great payday? I'm not optimistic about the chances he stays for less money.

I think its one or the other.

And I don't think Dedmon is coming back, not after him being benched Nazr style. And that's fine, because the Spurs are drafting Jordan Bell or DJ Wilson as their next defensive big to grow with Kawhi, Murray, Simmons, Green and Hanga.. tbh.

[Keepin' it real]

I love me some Simmons but he is not worth the money he's gonna get, tbh.

Show me an NBA team whose roster is filled with players who ARE worth the money they get. Doesn't exist, and if so, that team probably sucks because they're bargain shopping for players like they're shopping for discount patio furniture.

[SAGirl]

If Manu retires, Simmons can totally be the backup SG. But he would need a playmaking PG next to him, kind of like Danny. Simmons actually kind of reminds me of DeRozan on offense except that he isn't as talented or as much of a black hole.

Mills being on the roster would complicate that. The best the Spurs can hope for is for Mills to be like Derek Fisher and Danny to be like Rick Fox, with Kawhi playing the Kobe "wing that does everything" role. Obviously Aldridge is nowhere near as dominant as Shaq so the blueprint is probably busted from the get-go. I'm having trouble remembering elite teams with PGs that don't really have a playmaking role. The Heatles are close, but Wade was a much better playmaker than Danny.

This is making me miss Diaw 2.0. Aldridge/Good Diaw/Leonard/Green/Mills could wreck almost any team.

The other complication is that last summer the Spurs seemed to be gearing up for lots of cap space in 2018. How much of that space are the Spurs willing to sacrifice to keep guys like Simmons, Mills, and Dedmon? Parker's injury has really thrown off the plan, he's going to clog up a lot of cap space this year and will throw the PG rotation into disarray when he returns.

Good points.
I also believed the original plan was for 2018, but Mills and Simmons need to get get paid right now and they have low career earnings and are in their primes. It's unreasonable to expect discounts out of guys like Simms who have only made 1.5 mill in career earnings and Mills in $14 mill. And the Spurs have to evaluate if it's better to keep their core guys than go chasing waterfalls. I think they can always trade those guys if they need to in 2018, a la Tiago, Boris, specially if they are still productive which they should be if healthy, they are still young enough to not fall off a cliff in one season, etc.

With a group that wants to win right now, it would make sense to keep both those guys. Still it is unpredictable bc one never knows what FA will get from other teams.

[SilverSpur]

I think he stays, because he is grateful Spurs gave him his chance. He will get a nice rise with Manu retired and maybe even Parker moving to managment.

[SilverSpur]

U keeep him u let mills go

No! You find a way to keep both.

[Seventyniner]

I think its one or the other.

I agree. I was stretching to find a reason to keep both. I think Parker's injury makes it more likely the Spurs let go of Mills and re-sign Simmons, especially if Manu retires. Mills is just a harder player to fit into a system. He essentially plays the same position as Simmons but is bad on defense and doesn't bring enough playmaking to offset that.

Gambling on Murray being able to start has the most upside because he's still on a (very cheap, no less) rookie contract. Then the Spurs could go with a low-ceiling, high-floor backup PG to try and steady the ship, with Parker taking over later in the season and possibly coming off the bench.

[ErnestLynch]

With ginobili returning I would think we could keep our team. Do we want to though... I'm guessing we do whatever we can to get Chris Paul.

He's got 60 million on his contract ? Prone to injury ? Not for 60 million. No thank you.

BTW FWIW...Simmons has another plus. Durability.

[HarlemHeat37]

Harlem, what we need to come to realize is that there will never be a perfect Manu replacement. There will never be another Manu that can bring what he brought on both ends and be the elite scorer he was.

Once we come to realize that, then we will realize that Simmons is probably the best the Spurs can do to replace Manu's role. What option is better than Simmons on the open market? When I say better, I mean overall on both ends for the money.

I don't think there's a better option than Simmons on the market..as we discussed before, the FA options at PG and SG are very limited..however, I still wouldn't pay too much for him, considering he was a non-factor in the 1st round and struggled throughout the RS(not just struggled, but was pretty awful..

I don't expect an actual Manu replacement, tbh..I was referring to getting another playmaker at the guard position, though..Simmons isn't a playmaker..if the Spurs bring him back, which I'm cool with at the right price, he's just another athletic wing defender..Spurs are still going to need an actual playmaking guard, which is something they didn't have during the RS..hopefully it's Murray..

[SAGirl]

I don't think there's a better option than Simmons on the market..as we discussed before, the FA options at PG and SG are very limited..however, I still wouldn't pay too much for him, considering he was a non-factor in the 1st round and struggled throughout the RS(not just struggled, but was pretty awful..

I don't expect an actual Manu replacement, tbh..I was referring to getting another playmaker at the guard position, though..Simmons isn't a playmaker..if the Spurs bring him back, which I'm cool with at the right price, he's just another athletic wing defender..Spurs are still going to need an actual playmaking guard, which is something they didn't have during the RS..hopefully it's Murray..

I think it's Murray.
I didn't want to derail this thread from Simmons to Murray (but check his assist ratio, for a 20 year youngster was fine... also from having seen them some in the dleague, Murray is the better passer.)

[HarlemHeat37]

From Simmons' POV, he would be foolish to take anything less than the max he can get, tbh..27 years old, 4 kids, impact is 100% related to elite athleticism..feed those kids, my ..