2017 Vegas Summer League Game 1: Spurs vs Heat - 7:00 PM CT - 3:00 AM Riga

[DaBears]

Brogdon also played against mostly backups . Murray played against starters, and still held his own at about 3-5 yrs younger?

I think Brogdon is awesome, and wanted him for sure, but with Murray coming down to the spurs it was a no brainer. Kid has too much talent.

I am hoping I am wrong, and I want to be.. But I just don't see Dejounte Murray Making it in this league as a starting PG, he is way to turnover prone due to the way he dribbles. Coaching staff I am sure will work with him on getting lower to the ground when dribbling as his high dribble will not cut it.. Then next would be his Defense & jumpshot... If those can get marginally better from current lvl then he would be decent backup option. Brogdon Is much better player at this point and I don't see Murray exceeding his skill lvl in the next 2-3 seasons. So I would take Brogdon over Murray..

[Snaq O'Meal]

Terrible analogy. He isn't the second coming of Kyle.
Kyle is slow/methodical but very skilled. Murray is athletically gifted but unskilled. All he is right now is his physical tools and genetic gifts. Kyle dominated in summer league. Murray has not.

FYI, I wasn't even comparing Murray to Anderson. We just want to see some improvement. Any improvement.

[Snaq O'Meal]

I am hoping I am wrong, and I want to be.. But I just don't see Dejounte Murray Making it in this league as a starting PG, he is way to turnover prone due to the way he dribbles. Coaching staff I am sure will work with him on getting lower to the ground when dribbling as his high dribble will not cut it.. Then next would be his Defense & jumpshot... If those can get marginally better from current lvl then he would be decent backup option. Brogdon Is much better player at this point and I don't see Murray exceeding his skill lvl in the next 2-3 seasons. So I would take Brogdon over Murray..

I'm not too sure if that high dribble can be eliminated. It's part of his natural motion, and making it compact may take away his quick first step or change of direction.

[SAGirl]

FYI, I wasn't even comparing Murray to Anderson. We just want to see some improvement. Any improvement.

Yea, I am down with that.
I would have been happy with improvement in his shooting... let's say he's still TO prone but is shooting much better, that is something to look forward to. Right now, he still looks like the same guy.

I have seen him be less TO than in this game. He still has the entire summer to work on his offensive game. He needs to pack more than the 5 pounds he added, etc. He's still very young and has time to get better.

[duncan2k5]

I'm not really sold on Forbes...he can't penetrate, and he is gun shy in the regular season...we dont need a worse patty mills...we need someone that can break down the defense, punish switches, etc...that is Murray...with that said, he does need to improve his defense most of all...everything else will come

[SnakeBoy]

FYI, I wasn't even comparing Murray to Anderson. We just want to see some improvement. Any improvement.

Well what improvement did you expect to see from a 20 yr old kid in the 5 weeks from the last playoff game and the summer league?

[Snaq O'Meal]

Well what improvement did you expect to see from a 20 yr old kid in the 5 weeks from the last playoff game and the summer league?

I'm referring to improvements over the course of one year. Murray looks no different to this time last year: the high dribble is still there, as well as the inability to shoot or finish with higher efficiency.

The only guy who appeared to improve his game is Forbes.

[ceperez]

I'm referring to improvements over the course of one year. Murray looks no different to this time last year: the high dribble is still there, as well as the inability to shoot or finish with higher efficiency.

The only guy who appeared to improve his game is Forbes.

Exactly! Murray is no different from when he came in a year ago, flashy, turnover prone and can't shoot.

Still can't shoot.

Can't shoot a mid range shot.

Definitely can't shoot a 3 point shot.

[cjw]

To think people didn't want to part with Murray as part of any George trade. Not that it may have ever been on the table.

Spurfans slowly becoming like Knicks fans in how they traded Landry Fields.

[Chinook]

To think people didn't want to part with Murray as part of any George trade. Not that it may have ever been on the table.

Spurfans slowly becoming like Knicks fans in how they traded Landry Fields.

Cavs with JJ Hickson is more appropriate.

[Ice009]

I was one of the only ones he willing to trade him before Summer League. The fact that I'm a shooter and I see that Murray is a piss poor shooter (I didn't need to see any Summer League), I had no problem including him in any package that would bring us back a good/great player.

I learned the lesson years ago that you don't hold onto players that may have potential when you can get a player that may already be better than the young player with potential might ever be (Paul George is an example), especially if you're trying to win now. You just don't pass up those types of players to hold onto someone like Murray. That's idiotic.

[SuperCam]

Murray is still going to end up being a better player than Brogdon. Brogdon is already fairly close to a finished product, Murray on the other hand has so much more room for growth. The kid can be special if he puts in the effort and fixes some flaws.

replying so I can bump this post in a few seasons tbh

[Pavlov]

replying so I can bump this post in a few seasons tbh

Long term troll planning.

[Mnky]

I am hoping I am wrong, and I want to be.. But I just don't see Dejounte Murray Making it in this league as a starting PG, he is way to turnover prone due to the way he dribbles. Coaching staff I am sure will work with him on getting lower to the ground when dribbling as his high dribble will not cut it.. Then next would be his Defense & jumpshot... If those can get marginally better from current lvl then he would be decent backup option. Brogdon Is much better player at this point and I don't see Murray exceeding his skill lvl in the next 2-3 seasons. So I would take Brogdon over Murray..

I think there's a good chance Murray is every bit as good as Brogdon in 3-4 years. There's no telling which way he would go, but the reason the spurs got him was because he came out of college early. Of course, he had the No.1 pick who was going to take over at Washington, in Fultz, so it might have been a pretty good decision.

However that just means he's a couple years behind in development. Like I mentioned, he consistently performed at a high level against real compe ion.

Bryn Forbes has been onr of the best players of summer league, but that doesn't really mean he's the next Steph curry by any means. It's just summer league where the system looks pretty broke On both sides of the court.

It'll be fun to see how they both turn out though.

[Mnky]

I was one of the only ones he willing to trade him before Summer League. The fact that I'm a shooter and I see that Murray is a piss poor shooter (I didn't need to see any Summer League), I had no problem including him in any package that would bring us back a good/great player.

I learned the lesson years ago that you don't hold onto players that may have potential when you can get a player that may already be better than the young player with potential might ever be (Paul George is an example), especially if you're trying to win now. You just don't pass up those types of players to hold onto someone like Murray. That's idiotic.

GSW have that luxury, spurs dont. Warriors have their core set. They can just draft players, and be good with a supporting cast. Other teams have to look to possible core to build around. When evaluating what if's, there is a much wider range of issues to consider then watching a player shoot.

If that's the case you would have traded Kawhi tbh.

[ceperez]

I think there's a good chance Murray is every bit as good as Brogdon in 3-4 years. There's no telling which way he would go, but the reason the spurs got him was because he came out of college early. Of course, he had the No.1 pick who was going to take over at Washington, in Fultz, so it might have been a pretty good decision.

However that just means he's a couple years behind in development. Like I mentioned, he consistently performed at a high level against real compe ion.

Bryn Forbes has been onr of the best players of summer league, but that doesn't really mean he's the next Steph curry by any means. It's just summer league where the system looks pretty broke On both sides of the court.

It'll be fun to see how they both turn out though.

The entire philosophy of the Spurs is to get players with a specific kind of mind set. That is player's who play team ball, are always ready, professional, constantly improving and last of all compe ive.

Why the did the Spurs pay premium for Patty Mills?

Now let's talk about Murray, he just talks the talk but you can see he's a very selfish player that thinks he's better than everyone else. He's not like White or Forbes that played in division 2, had to work their but off to get to division 1. They have a built in fear to have to prove themselves.

Contrast that to Murray who is coming from en lement. He already believes that he has superior talent even though he can't shoot! He just can't shoot. He's kind of like a James 'Flight' White without the jumping ability. He's long but doesn't have much of a lift. Finally, he's got poor fundamentals. What the is with that dribble? How many times was he stripped in the last game against Summer League talent? He is all smoke and mirrors. There are a ton of other players that are more fundamentally sound.

If Murray was any good, why hasn't he shown that in 4 games in Summer League? They got crap talent over there yet he keeps bricking shots.

[Drom John]

I saw the last 3 quarters of the Jazz / Trail Blazers game, the Spurs / Heat, and the first quarter of the Cavaliers / Rockets.
I was in the second row opposite the Heat bench.

The eye test, with all the caveats of one day samples, and that it was Summer League
All the Spurs guards were better than all the Heat guards, and probably better than any on the other four teams. Forbes > White > Murray > Hanlan
Forbes had the best handles, better than Donovan Mitc (Jazz), and unlike Mitc , Forbes seem to have a purpose with his dribbles. OTOH, off the ball Forbes didn't move much off a 3-pt spot.
White was solid, confident and commanding and the rest of the team seemed to move better when Derrick had the ball. IOW, White controlled the pace best.
As stated above, Murray was good/bad, clearly talented, but the least game savvy. When Dejounte dribbled knee-high he was better than Mitc , but then Murray would have those plays when he dribbled waist high, signaling a drive, and the Heat D ate him up.
Hanlan was solid, again better than any non-Spur guard, but seemed mechanical and passionless (and not in a Kawhi sort of way.)

Bigs:
Adebayo was eye-poppingly good, by far the best player in the three games.
Aguste was the solid second.
Those two were the most fluid, basketball players in big men bodies.
Then surprisingly, Whittington, was a clear third best, a mop up man, who had good initial position on Adebayo, but Bam's quickness was too much.
Bertans was out muscled, but made the Heat work.
Jefferson is a force and knows it. Cory could make a bad second string team better just by at ude and hustle.
When Jean-Charles was on my side (most of the time), I focused on his footwork instead of whoever and the ball. Livio moved laterally good-enough, seemed to contain his man, and seemed to slide to relatively open and appropriate offensive spots.
Blossomgame seemed lost.
Lalanne was merely there.
Ledbetter, ignored by Heat and Spurs on offense, actually called defenses twice.
Zhou Qi and Zach Collins look very similar and very raw. Zhou reaches too much and gets easy to call ticky-tack fouls. Tony Bradley was lost.

Spurs/Heat was the best game, all the players seemed involve and played good team ball. The Spurs were by far the most vocal of the six teams especially on defense, and they seemed to share the duties. The Spurs also switched much more than the other five teams, especially the Austin bigs (Bertans, Jean-Charles, Jefferson, Lalanne).

The temperature was a factor.
These games were in the small gym.
During the Jazz / Trailblazers game the stands were maybe 60% full, and the players were sweating heavily and there were several slips.
Then the Celtics / Lakers game sucked the fans out to the big stadium, leaving the small gym about 20% full. The gym cooled significantly. The fans on my side were about 30% Spurs, 25% pissed off Laker fans who didn't get seats next door, a handful of Heat fans, many neutrals, and a lot of professionals with badges, (NBA, scouts, foreign teams).
For the Cavaliers / Rockets, the gym fill back up to 50% and was noticeably warmer.


In the middle of the first quarter of the Spurs game an agent came in and sat directly behind me and talked to another man across the aisle, and handled several phone calls.
The first comment from the agent to the parent was "I see Cady is playing. How's he doing." Answered "He just got in."
Then back and forth from phone and the man across the aisle. "I am getting offers from Greece."
And "A team in Lebanon is offering $100,000 for a center for just a one month contract, but nobody's taking it because they are all waiting for the CBA [China] with Zhou gone." The other man, "Just greedy. They should get the experience."

[ceperez]

In the middle of the first quarter of the Spurs game an agent came in and sat directly behind me and talked to another man across the aisle, and handled several phone calls.
The first comment from the agent to the parent was "I see Cady is playing. How's he doing." Answered "He just got in."
Then back and forth from phone and the man across the aisle. "I am getting offers from Greece."
And "A team in Lebanon is offering $100,000 for a center for just a one month contract, but nobody's taking it because they are all waiting for the CBA [China] with Zhou gone." The other man, "Just greedy. They should get the experience."

Nice... looks like Las Vega Summer League is the place to be if you are a basketball agent.

[Play Boban]

MVBertans

[sasaint]

I saw the last 3 quarters of the Jazz / Trail Blazers game, the Spurs / Heat, and the first quarter of the Cavaliers / Rockets.
I was in the second row opposite the Heat bench.

The eye test, with all the caveats of one day samples, and that it was Summer League
All the Spurs guards were better than all the Heat guards, and probably better than any on the other four teams. Forbes > White > Murray > Hanlan
Forbes had the best handles, better than Donovan Mitc (Jazz), and unlike Mitc , Forbes seem to have a purpose with his dribbles. OTOH, off the ball Forbes didn't move much off a 3-pt spot.
White was solid, confident and commanding and the rest of the team seemed to move better when Derrick had the ball. IOW, White controlled the pace best.
As stated above, Murray was good/bad, clearly talented, but the least game savvy. When Dejounte dribbled knee-high he was better than Mitc , but then Murray would have those plays when he dribbled waist high, signaling a drive, and the Heat D ate him up.
Hanlan was solid, again better than any non-Spur guard, but seemed mechanical and passionless (and not in a Kawhi sort of way.)

Bigs:
Adebayo was eye-poppingly good, by far the best player in the three games.
Aguste was the solid second.
Those two were the most fluid, basketball players in big men bodies.
Then surprisingly, Whittington, was a clear third best, a mop up man, who had good initial position on Adebayo, but Bam's quickness was too much.
Bertans was out muscled, but made the Heat work.
Jefferson is a force and knows it. Cory could make a bad second string team better just by at ude and hustle.
When Jean-Charles was on my side (most of the time), I focused on his footwork instead of whoever and the ball. Livio moved laterally good-enough, seemed to contain his man, and seemed to slide to relatively open and appropriate offensive spots.
Blossomgame seemed lost.
Lalanne was merely there.
Ledbetter, ignored by Heat and Spurs on offense, actually called defenses twice.
Zhou Qi and Zach Collins look very similar and very raw. Zhou reaches too much and gets easy to call ticky-tack fouls. Tony Bradley was lost.

Spurs/Heat was the best game, all the players seemed involve and played good team ball. The Spurs were by far the most vocal of the six teams especially on defense, and they seemed to share the duties. The Spurs also switched much more than the other five teams, especially the Austin bigs (Bertans, Jean-Charles, Jefferson, Lalanne).

The temperature was a factor.
These games were in the small gym.
During the Jazz / Trailblazers game the stands were maybe 60% full, and the players were sweating heavily and there were several slips.
Then the Celtics / Lakers game sucked the fans out to the big stadium, leaving the small gym about 20% full. The gym cooled significantly. The fans on my side were about 30% Spurs, 25% pissed off Laker fans who didn't get seats next door, a handful of Heat fans, many neutrals, and a lot of professionals with badges, (NBA, scouts, foreign teams).
For the Cavaliers / Rockets, the gym fill back up to 50% and was noticeably warmer.


In the middle of the first quarter of the Spurs game an agent came in and sat directly behind me and talked to another man across the aisle, and handled several phone calls.
The first comment from the agent to the parent was "I see Cady is playing. How's he doing." Answered "He just got in."
Then back and forth from phone and the man across the aisle. "I am getting offers from Greece."
And "A team in Lebanon is offering $100,000 for a center for just a one month contract, but nobody's taking it because they are all waiting for the CBA [China] with Zhou gone." The other man, "Just greedy. They should get the experience."

Very cool intel. Thanks!

[Mnky]

The entire philosophy of the Spurs is to get players with a specific kind of mind set. That is player's who play team ball, are always ready, professional, constantly improving and last of all compe ive.

Why the did the Spurs pay premium for Patty Mills?

Now let's talk about Murray, he just talks the talk but you can see he's a very selfish player that thinks he's better than everyone else. He's not like White or Forbes that played in division 2, had to work their but off to get to division 1. They have a built in fear to have to prove themselves.

Contrast that to Murray who is coming from en lement. He already believes that he has superior talent even though he can't shoot! He just can't shoot. He's kind of like a James 'Flight' White without the jumping ability. He's long but doesn't have much of a lift. Finally, he's got poor fundamentals. What the is with that dribble? How many times was he stripped in the last game against Summer League talent? He is all smoke and mirrors. There are a ton of other players that are more fundamentally sound.

If Murray was any good, why hasn't he shown that in 4 games in Summer League? They got crap talent over there yet he keeps bricking shots.

Why hasn't he shown anything? He did against kyrie Irving, Seth curry, and Beverly. I remember someone saying Beverly picked his pocket, that's like criticising someone for kawhi picking their pocket, that's what they do.

He has shown he can play at the NBA level. He does have elite intangibles. There's no arguing that. What he needs to do is provr his development , and summer league isn't the best place to see that to be honest. As I mentioned, it's summer league and there are not real systems going on. Every player is being stingy and trying to makr a team. It IS NOT team concept. Their careers are on the line.

Murray showed out last year in summer league. He isn't doing well this year. Not to worried about it tbh. He has been a development project since draft night.

Also understand the mindset too, but thats that's a good and bad. You want that mindset, and you saw why in the playoffs anf big games. He isnt affected or scared of tge moment. However, being over zealous can be an issue.

That being said, he's a second year young player whos a development, but has the ability to play now. Maybe not be the best PG in the league is not possible, but that's okay. That's why the spurs wrre able to get him, ane he still has plenty of positives despite the focus on his negatives.

[Mnky]

I saw the last 3 quarters of the Jazz / Trail Blazers game, the Spurs / Heat, and the first quarter of the Cavaliers / Rockets.
I was in the second row opposite the Heat bench.

The eye test, with all the caveats of one day samples, and that it was Summer League
All the Spurs guards were better than all the Heat guards, and probably better than any on the other four teams. Forbes > White > Murray > Hanlan
Forbes had the best handles, better than Donovan Mitc (Jazz), and unlike Mitc , Forbes seem to have a purpose with his dribbles. OTOH, off the ball Forbes didn't move much off a 3-pt spot.
White was solid, confident and commanding and the rest of the team seemed to move better when Derrick had the ball. IOW, White controlled the pace best.
As stated above, Murray was good/bad, clearly talented, but the least game savvy. When Dejounte dribbled knee-high he was better than Mitc , but then Murray would have those plays when he dribbled waist high, signaling a drive, and the Heat D ate him up.
Hanlan was solid, again better than any non-Spur guard, but seemed mechanical and passionless (and not in a Kawhi sort of way.)

Bigs:
Adebayo was eye-poppingly good, by far the best player in the three games.
Aguste was the solid second.
Those two were the most fluid, basketball players in big men bodies.
Then surprisingly, Whittington, was a clear third best, a mop up man, who had good initial position on Adebayo, but Bam's quickness was too much.
Bertans was out muscled, but made the Heat work.
Jefferson is a force and knows it. Cory could make a bad second string team better just by at ude and hustle.
When Jean-Charles was on my side (most of the time), I focused on his footwork instead of whoever and the ball. Livio moved laterally good-enough, seemed to contain his man, and seemed to slide to relatively open and appropriate offensive spots.
Blossomgame seemed lost.
Lalanne was merely there.
Ledbetter, ignored by Heat and Spurs on offense, actually called defenses twice.
Zhou Qi and Zach Collins look very similar and very raw. Zhou reaches too much and gets easy to call ticky-tack fouls. Tony Bradley was lost.

Spurs/Heat was the best game, all the players seemed involve and played good team ball. The Spurs were by far the most vocal of the six teams especially on defense, and they seemed to share the duties. The Spurs also switched much more than the other five teams, especially the Austin bigs (Bertans, Jean-Charles, Jefferson, Lalanne).

The temperature was a factor.
These games were in the small gym.
During the Jazz / Trailblazers game the stands were maybe 60% full, and the players were sweating heavily and there were several slips.
Then the Celtics / Lakers game sucked the fans out to the big stadium, leaving the small gym about 20% full. The gym cooled significantly. The fans on my side were about 30% Spurs, 25% pissed off Laker fans who didn't get seats next door, a handful of Heat fans, many neutrals, and a lot of professionals with badges, (NBA, scouts, foreign teams).
For the Cavaliers / Rockets, the gym fill back up to 50% and was noticeably warmer.


In the middle of the first quarter of the Spurs game an agent came in and sat directly behind me and talked to another man across the aisle, and handled several phone calls.
The first comment from the agent to the parent was "I see Cady is playing. How's he doing." Answered "He just got in."
Then back and forth from phone and the man across the aisle. "I am getting offers from Greece."
And "A team in Lebanon is offering $100,000 for a center for just a one month contract, but nobody's taking it because they are all waiting for the CBA [China] with Zhou gone." The other man, "Just greedy. They should get the experience."

[CGD]

Perrantes from the Heat was solid in that game. Another underrated Virginia guy.

[CGD]

Murray needs to tighten up that handle. He gets a little too lose and a little too high for comfort

[TheDoctor]

I saw the last 3 quarters of the Jazz / Trail Blazers game, the Spurs / Heat, and the first quarter of the Cavaliers / Rockets.
I was in the second row opposite the Heat bench.

The eye test, with all the caveats of one day samples, and that it was Summer League
All the Spurs guards were better than all the Heat guards, and probably better than any on the other four teams. Forbes > White > Murray > Hanlan
Forbes had the best handles, better than Donovan Mitc (Jazz), and unlike Mitc , Forbes seem to have a purpose with his dribbles. OTOH, off the ball Forbes didn't move much off a 3-pt spot.
White was solid, confident and commanding and the rest of the team seemed to move better when Derrick had the ball. IOW, White controlled the pace best.
As stated above, Murray was good/bad, clearly talented, but the least game savvy. When Dejounte dribbled knee-high he was better than Mitc , but then Murray would have those plays when he dribbled waist high, signaling a drive, and the Heat D ate him up.
Hanlan was solid, again better than any non-Spur guard, but seemed mechanical and passionless (and not in a Kawhi sort of way.)

Bigs:
Adebayo was eye-poppingly good, by far the best player in the three games.
Aguste was the solid second.
Those two were the most fluid, basketball players in big men bodies.
Then surprisingly, Whittington, was a clear third best, a mop up man, who had good initial position on Adebayo, but Bam's quickness was too much.
Bertans was out muscled, but made the Heat work.
Jefferson is a force and knows it. Cory could make a bad second string team better just by at ude and hustle.
When Jean-Charles was on my side (most of the time), I focused on his footwork instead of whoever and the ball. Livio moved laterally good-enough, seemed to contain his man, and seemed to slide to relatively open and appropriate offensive spots.
Blossomgame seemed lost.
Lalanne was merely there.
Ledbetter, ignored by Heat and Spurs on offense, actually called defenses twice.
Zhou Qi and Zach Collins look very similar and very raw. Zhou reaches too much and gets easy to call ticky-tack fouls. Tony Bradley was lost.

Spurs/Heat was the best game, all the players seemed involve and played good team ball. The Spurs were by far the most vocal of the six teams especially on defense, and they seemed to share the duties. The Spurs also switched much more than the other five teams, especially the Austin bigs (Bertans, Jean-Charles, Jefferson, Lalanne).

The temperature was a factor.
These games were in the small gym.
During the Jazz / Trailblazers game the stands were maybe 60% full, and the players were sweating heavily and there were several slips.
Then the Celtics / Lakers game sucked the fans out to the big stadium, leaving the small gym about 20% full. The gym cooled significantly. The fans on my side were about 30% Spurs, 25% pissed off Laker fans who didn't get seats next door, a handful of Heat fans, many neutrals, and a lot of professionals with badges, (NBA, scouts, foreign teams).
For the Cavaliers / Rockets, the gym fill back up to 50% and was noticeably warmer.


In the middle of the first quarter of the Spurs game an agent came in and sat directly behind me and talked to another man across the aisle, and handled several phone calls.
The first comment from the agent to the parent was "I see Cady is playing. How's he doing." Answered "He just got in."
Then back and forth from phone and the man across the aisle. "I am getting offers from Greece."
And "A team in Lebanon is offering $100,000 for a center for just a one month contract, but nobody's taking it because they are all waiting for the CBA [China] with Zhou gone." The other man, "Just greedy. They should get the experience."

This was awesome