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Fair enough. It can't be disproven anyways. You know some guys who could technically be better defensively never quite become plus defenders. It's just how it is.
Warren has the tools to defend too although we don't know how good he could be since he's on the Suns. Also, the difference in their ability to rebound is negligible. Kyle's passing game is his only true advantage over Warren.
We can agree to disagree though, but I maintain that, if their teams were reversed, you'd see a much better player in Warren on the Spurs.
Fair enough. It can't be disproven anyways. You know some guys who could technically be better defensively never quite become plus defenders. It's just how it is.
I disagree with this too. Some players can't be helped. Still, I think the Spurs get the most out of their guys for the most part. All players who join up say as much, and you can see it every year with the production they get out of their bench and bottom of the barrel guys like D-League Green.
There are guys who get lost, don't have good instincts, etc. I can't say Warren is one bc I don't watch his team enough. But there's a reason whyy despite playing in the same Spurs system there are guys that are better than others defensively even in the same team. Some guys have a good instinct to block a shot, steal a ball, Danny in transition just has a good instinct on how to defuse a play. Enough that it stands out. There are other perimeter players in the team with the same system but are not as effective as he is at that. That's what I mean when I say the system gets credited for too much. But I am sure Warren would benefit from playing in the Spurs system. How much? I don't know.
The guy is being asked to contribute greatly night in and night out. Put your pathetic Fathead in his spot and he wouldn't fair any better. Replace Kyle with TJ Warren and Kawhi would actually have a legitimate backup rather than Kyle who is so bad at that position, he needs to be moved to power forward to hide all his deficiencies as a 3.
Can't wait until Kyle is out of the league so ty talent evaluators like you can finally stop talking about him.Warren contributes to a ty team. Great analysis there. Guess you're going to tell us how TJ McConnell and Joe Harris are good too.
This has been a hard off-season on all of us Spurs fans, but you seemed to have cracked the most under the strain out of anyone here.
Your problem is that you think the Spurs "make" players when they don't. Green was a great college player whose skill-set hasn't changed much since he was at UNC. It's not like they took a bad shooter and defender and turned him into a three-and-D guy. His best shooting improvement came during the lockout. Teams can certainly misuse player (like Cleveland did with Green) but putting Danny in a role to best use his talents is not the same thing as making guys seem better than they are.
A dude like Warren doesn't have a role-player skill-set. He has combo-forward size and NBA athleticism. But that's not remotely hard to find. He doesn't shoot well, has no defensive fundamentals and doesn't seem to have much in the way of BBIQ. In order for Pop to even play Warren, TJ would have to change his game away from his strengths and develop his weaknesses. It's like a Bizarro Green.
What makes your assertion even weaker is that you don't seem to realize that PATFO actively avoids players like Warren. They don't go for guys with bad skills to develop. That's why they passed on KJ McDaniels and Jerami Grant in the 2013 draft. The key to the Spurs' success is not Pop the coach turning into gold. It's Pop the PoBO finding players who already fit what he wants to do and bringing them in. Give the Spurs the 14th pick in 2014, and they probably draft Nurkic or even Anderson over Warren.
I'm not going to prejudge, tbh... gonna give him a little time to see his improvement...
Oh God...A lot of diarrhea here but, then again, that's typical of Chinook's player analysis.
Good job missing the point, jackass. Warren is asked to do a lot for the Suns. Perhaps too much for this point in his development. He's not a star by any means, but he still contributes and helps them win games. It doesn't help that he's surrounded by other bad defenders. I won't say he's going to be a star. I won't even say he's a good defender even if he has the tools and quick hands - something I've noticed after watching a lot of Suns games last season, mostly for Booker - but he can win you games with a great combination of scoring ability (specifically as a pick-and-roll ball-handler and cuts to the basket scoring at 1.42 points per possession and .81 points per possession, respectively, putting him right next to Wiggins in both categories), rebounding (only two less rebounds per 36 than Fathead), and passing (again, not where Fathead is right now, but you can see flashes as a ball-handler if you actually watch the games). He is unique at his position. He isn't just a combo forward with no skills.
I'd love to see how well Fathead would play starting for the Suns, especially if he was coming off of injuries early in the season then bounce back to average around 17 points, almost 8 boards a game, plus a block and steal on 56% shooting over a 7 week period to end the season like Warren did.
Riiight. I guess you've missed all the posts about people wanting Pop fired, or Kawhi needing to leave to California. I think you just needed something to add to your worthless post and, per usual with any Chinook post, added said fluff like the windbag you are.This has been a hard off-season on all of us Spurs fans, but you seemed to have cracked the most under the strain out of anyone here.
Uh what? I didn't even say that. I said the Spurs get the most out of the players they have. And Cleveland didn't "misuse" Green, idiot. They didn't use him at all. You also seem to be forgetting that Green was cut from this team before he stuck. Obviously, he wasn't a finished product before that.
Already dispelled the myth that he has no skill-set which you're obviously trying to push to backup your stupid notion that Fathead is the better basketball player. As for the Spurs needing to "change his game and develop his strengths", that seems like yet ANOTHER thing you just spit out to fluff up your post once again. Man, you're a consistently bad talent evaluator and total windbag...but you're consistent. I'll give you that.A dude like Warren doesn't have a role-player skill-set. He has combo-forward size and NBA athleticism. But that's not remotely hard to find. He doesn't shoot well, has no defensive fundamentals and doesn't seem to have much in the way of BBIQ. In order for Pop to even play Warren, TJ would have to change his game away from his strengths and develop his weaknesses. It's like a Bizarro Green.
Yes, Warren's defense needs work. Yes, his shot needs work. Then again, so does that wuss Fathead who doesn't even take them. With that said, Warren would fit well as a Spur provided Chip could improve his shot - though Warren isn't as bad as stats would leave you to believe since he didn't get many opportunities to shoot corner threes which are the easiest 3pt shot because the Suns offense simply didn't open up many of those (try watching the games, got) - which would also go a long way to making him an even deadlier wing player. You wouldn't have to "change his game". As I already said, he's a good ball-handler, capable passer, and great cutter. I guess those don't work in the Spurs offense, right?
I guess you also forget that Pop hasn't even played Kyle as a point forward (who struggled with his shot) which was his strength in college, or an iso scorer (which he did well in SL). Fathead hasn't been able to contribute that way at an NBA, and that's why Pop has slowly turned him into a small ball big who can occasionally pass and shoot the three while guys like Jonathon Simmons and Davis Bertans last year too many of his minutes. So much for not taking away strengths and developing weaknesses, huh? Idiot...Funny that you would call Anderson a complete prospect in other threads too since that only serves my point that Anderson's ceiling and, as a player overall, is lower than Warren's who isn't finished developing at all.
What makes your assertion even weaker is that you don't seem to realize that PATFO actively avoids players like Warren. They don't go for guys with bad skills to develop. That's why they passed on KJ McDaniels and Jerami Grant in the 2013 draft. The key to the Spurs' success is not Pop the coach turning into gold. It's Pop the PoBO finding players who already fit what he wants to do and bringing them in.
Probably not but, if they did, Buford and Co. are even worse drafters than some of the pessimists here say. Then again, I wouldn't even be shocked if that did happen. Buford is the guy who wanted Valanciunas over everyone else in 2011 after all.Give the Spurs the 14th pick in 2014, and they probably draft Nurkic or even Anderson over Warren.
Last edited by TimDunkem; 09-28-2017 at 01:48 AM.
Then you proceed to give really terrible rebuttals.
No, the point is that Warren doesn't help win games, which is one of the many reasons the Suns didn't really win games. He's a net-negative player.Good job missing the point, jackass. Warren is asked to do a lot for the Suns. Perhaps too much for this point in his development. He's not a star by any means, but he still contributes and helps them win games.
This is an honest attempt at discussion, so I'll respond in kind.It doesn't help that he's surrounded by other bad defenders. I won't say he's going to be a star. I won't even say he's a good defender even if he has the tools and quick hands - something I've noticed after watching a lot of Suns games last season, mostly for Booker - but he can win you games with a great combination of scoring ability (specifically as a pick-and-roll ball-handler and cuts to the basket scoring at 1.42 points per possession and .81 points per possession, respectively, putting him right next to Wiggins in both categories), rebounding (only two less rebounds per 36 than Fathead), and passing (again, not where Fathead is right now, but you can see flashes as a ball-handler if you actually watch the games). He is unique at his position. He isn't just a combo forward with no skills.
He was good in the two categories you listed. He was terrible spotting up (which was important to his playability) and isoing (which is important if you're going to act like he's a great scorer).
My guess is you didn't look, but Kyle was in the 98th percentile in iso scoring. He was also in the 76th percentile in PnR handing (the stat you tried to use to pump Warren up). He was indeed low on cuts (47th percentile) and only slightly better at spotting up (37th percentile). I'd say Kyle's a better scorer due to his ability to get his own shot, but I'm willing to call it a push in terms of scoring diversity.
Two rebounds per 36 is a whole lot, especially considering that Anderson spent only 10 percent of his minutes as a big while Warren spent 30. The Spurs are also a great rebounding team, so Anderson had more compe ion for boards.
Nah, most of those guys would do that anyway. May as well have tried to use me defending Green as an example.Riiight. I guess you've missed all the posts about people wanting Pop fired, or Kawhi needing to leave to California. I think you just needed something to add to your worthless post and, per usual with any Chinook post, added said fluff like the windbag you are.
You said it when you argued that Warren would be a better player if he played for the Spurs.Uh what? I didn't even say that. I said the Spurs get the most out of the players they have. And Cleveland didn't "misuse" Green, idiot. They didn't use him at all. You also seem to be forgetting that Green was cut from this team before he stuck. Obviously, he wasn't a finished product before that.
Anyway, the Cavs totally misused Green by not putting him in a three-and-D role. They cut him the next summer in favor of guys who didn't have NBA skill-sets but probably had more independent games. The Spurs cut Green because of his at ude. He fixed his at ude and begged Pop to bring him back. Too small of sample size, but his numbers from his first stint were at least as good as those after he came back.
Most of the rest of this is ty insults to try to cover up nothing but a strange interest in net-negative Warren. But to parse:
Which of course wasn't what I said. I said a role-player skill-set. When you later say:Already dispelled the myth that he has no skill-set
you are agreeing with me. Who gives a if he can run a PnR? He's a combo-forward. He wasn't going to have to ball in his hands anyway. That wasn't going to be his role.Yes, Warren's defense needs work. Yes, his shot needs work.
It's funny, because you said that like it was a good point. No, they don't need tenth men doing that (and yes, you were advocating for him being the 10th man, as Kawhi's backup has been for the past couple of years). Passing is nice, but only for secondary or tertiary action. Cutting is nice, but if he can't shoot his cutting won't be as beneficial.You wouldn't have to "change his game". As I already said, he's a good ball-handler, capable passer, and great cutter. I guess those don't work in the Spurs offense, right?
No one's forgotten that. His ball-handling and passing have remained relatively constrained parts in his game that he only brings out when he has no choice. It's all the more reason why you assuming he'd struggle in a bigger role on a bad team is weird. He's a good iso scorer and play-maker. Put him on a team where he has to be a top option, and he'd be much closer to the summer-league and college player. TJ Warren with great defense and better passing? Probably.I guess you also forget that Pop hasn't even played Kyle as a point forward
The only funny part is that you thought complete meant finished rather than well-rounded. Saying a guy has a complete game doesn't mean he can't get better.Funny that you would call Anderson a complete prospect in other threads
I assume then that you didn't want them over Anderson in 2014? Anyway, neither of those guys are terrible players. KJ was a good defender but a bit of a head case, while Grant is a serviceable rim-protecting big. If either had the Pop boost you've been assuming, they should both have higher ceilings than Anderson.K.J. McDaniels and Jerami Grant. Could you provide any worse examples?
It's a matter of cir stance. Warren is on a bad team, a team that doesn't put him in great positions to score and do his thing, but he still makes the most of it because he's great at taking advantage of what he's given within the Suns poorly run offense. The almost universal opinion on Warren is that he's a great piece on the Suns though he would be better suited on a team that focuses on defense, with coaches that can help him grow, and shooters that can supplant his shooting ability while he improves on that end. He is a legitimate contributor. You can't deny that.
Warren isn't that kind of scorer. In fact I never said he was a SCORER, per se, rather than someone who has unique scoring abilities that allow him to put up points if used properly. Ways that are much more efficient than a player like Fathead who is either too afraid to shoot open looks which puts the offense in a bad position, almost never takes advantages of size mismatches, or doesn't have the physical ability to score on physical or athletic players. As for his jump shot, I already covered that. He isn't a great shooter, but it doesn't help that the Suns offense is not getting him good open looks. Watch the games and you will see that.This is an honest attempt at discussion, so I'll respond in kind.
He was good in the two categories you listed. He was terrible spotting up (which was important to his playability) and isoing (which is important if you're going to act like he's a great scorer).
My guess is you didn't look, but Kyle was in the 98th percentile in iso scoring. He was also in the 76th percentile in PnR handing (the stat you tried to use to pump Warren up). He was indeed low on cuts (47th percentile) and only slightly better atspotting up (37th percentile). I'd say Kyle's a better scorer due to his ability to get his own shot, but I'm willing to call it a push in terms of scoring diversity.
Except Kyle is poor at getting his own shot against good players. Warren is going up against starters night after night. The only time Kyle ever actually converts when he takes that rare shot in iso is on poor defenders, or bench players. And, as I've already said, he still rarely ever takes advantage of his match-ups.
Kyle wasn't playing a whole lot of minutes with Pau or Aldridge as a big, and the Suns were just as good of a rebounding team, so your point is moot. If you still want to claim that Anderson is a better rebounder, that's fine, but the difference is negligible especially when Warren has proven to provide much more than just that.Two rebounds per 36 is a whole lot, especially considering that Anderson spent only 10 percent of his minutes as a big while Warren spent 30. The Spurs are also a great rebounding team, so Anderson had more compe ion for boards.
No, Chinook, I did not say that the Spurs "make" players, or that they would "make" Warren a great player. I said they get the most out of the players they have, pointed out that most would agree that Warren a good player, and stated that he is a better than Fathead right now. All I've been saying is, if you put him on the Spurs, they will get even more out of him than they have gotten out of Fathead.You said it when you argued that Warren would be a better player if he played for the Spurs.
Again, they didn't use him at all. Cavs certainly missed the boat on Green, but you can't say they misused him when putting him ahead of guys in the rotation who were just as good, if not better, in the same role. He wasn't ready. He obviously wasn't ready with the Spurs, be it for at ude reasons or otherwise. You think he would've been the same player he is now with anyone else? Clearly, Danny needed the guidance of Pop.Anyway, the Cavs totally misused Green by not putting him in a three-and-D role. They cut him the next summer in favor of guys who didn't have NBA skill-sets but probably had more independent games. The Spurs cut Green because of his at ude. He fixed his at ude and begged Pop to bring him back. Too small of sample size, but his numbers from his first stint were at least as good as those after he came back.
No fascination other than with how someone like you who could be knowledgeable in technical, financial aspects of the league can be so bad in evaluating talent. Can't be good at everything, I suppose.Most of the rest of this is ty insults to try to cover up nothing but a strange interest in net-negative Warren. But to parse:
You sure are short-sighted. I already pointed out that he doesn't need the ball in his hands to score although, if he did, he has the tools. Again, you don't think a player that is great at reading the defense and great at finishing at the basket can't contribute as a role player?you are agreeing with me. Who gives a if he can run a PnR? He's a combo-forward. He wasn't going to have to ball in his hands anyway. That wasn't going to be his role.
And - no - we don't agree. Fathead isn't better than T.J. Warren.
Another short-sighted response. There were plenty of non-shooters throughout league history who were great cutters on teams that could take advantage of that. Good thing you aren't a coach as you obviously like to pigeonhole guys into a role, and would be damn awful at taking advantages of your player's strengths.funny, because you said that like it was a good point. No, they don't need tenth men doing that (and yes, you were advocating for him being the 10th man, as Kawhi's backup has been for the past couple of years). Passing is nice, but only for secondary or tertiary action. Cutting is nice, but if he can't shoot his cutting won't be as beneficial.
You can easy take advantage of a guy like T.J.'s passing and ability to read defenses as well as his strengths as a cutter. You would think as someone who is a fan of a good shooting team with players that can command a lot of attention such as Kawhi ing Leonard, Parker, Manu, Aldridge, Gay, etc, that you would understand that Warren's chances to take advantage of his strengths would go up exponentially.
No one's forgotten that. His ball-handling and passing have remained relatively constrained parts in his game that he only brings out when he has no choice. It's all the more reason why you assuming he'd struggle in a bigger role on a bad team is weird. He's a good iso scorer and play-maker. Put him on a team where he has to be a top option, and he'd be much closer to the summer-league and college player. TJ Warren with great defense and better passing? Probably.
So, then why would Warren not be a better player than he is now on the Spurs? You never acknowledged the defensive-minded culture, Pop, and coaching staff factor. Kyle has had the benefit of that now and struggles to get consistent minutes over the Jonathon Simmons and Davis Bertans of the world.Saying a guy has a complete game doesn't mean he can't get better.
I assume then that you didn't want them over Anderson in 2014? Anyway, neither of those guys are terrible players. KJ was a good defender but a bit of a head case, while Grant is a serviceable rim-protecting big. If either had the Pop boost you've been assuming, they should both have higher ceilings than Anderson.
K.J. is a fringe NBA player and isn't a good example.
And, at the time, no, but I'd take Jerami right now over Kyle Anderson because Kyle's only clear role in the NBA is as a small ball big, which Jerami is certainly much better at. I'll take a defensive, rim-protecting big who is improving his shot over a guy who is a jack of all trades but master of none who doesn't even have the balls to take the shots he does get.
Last edited by TimDunkem; 09-28-2017 at 04:41 AM.
Meeelllllllllllltttttdoooooownnnnnn for 25 paragraphs
Stalkiiiiiing going on 3 months now.
I hope you understand why I wouldn't quote that whole response. We'd be getting into silly territory.
You're coming across much more reasonably in most of your responses. I can respect that and even say that I came off as too strongly against Warren. He perhaps has strengths that would make him more generally useful, especially if he can get a shot. I'm not willing to call him James Johnson 2.0, but something like Markieff without the ability to play the five could be in his future. That's not useless. That said, for all the credit Chip gets for fixing shots, he likely deserves more for knowing if shots can be fixed. I will admit I'm not a shooting specialist and haven't watched TJ enough to know if he has something broken.
So that said: Kyle played most of his minutes with two of Pau, LMA, Lee or Dedmon. The latter three bigs were among the best in the league in rebound rate, especially Lee and Dedmon. The compe ion was much better than you seem to have assumed. Anyway, no, the Spurs were a MUCH better rebounding team, especially if we isolate defensive boards (since the Spurs don't go for offensive rebounds much as part of their scheme). And two more rebounds again is a huge difference. We're talking about 40ish percent more production. And trying to down play that as like the only thing Anderson does better is wrong, as Kyle is ahead in almost every stat other than scoring.
How many wings with bad shots do you recall the Spurs playing recently? I can't think of any except maybe Jack. They clearly go for guys with the skills they want already rather than looking at raw talent. You can argue Simmons and Murray as counterpoints, but they let Jonathon without much of a fight, and we'll have to see what happens to Murray. They seemed really reluctant to use him so far. And before you mention Anderson, remember that he shot 48 percent from three his final year at UCLA. His struggles came up in the NBA and have absolutely affected his playing time. It wasn't an obvious thing he was lacking in his game coming into the league.
I think most people who don't just think Anderson sucks think he's too passive and defers too much. That's not a problem on the Suns, just as it hasn't been anywhere else Kyle plays. I would fully expect him to be aggressive on the Suns. What is fact is that he is statistically elite in multiple categories, which isn't something you can say about Warren. If Anderson just sucked, it wouldn't be frustrating. But he clearly doesn't suck and instead doesn't play up to his talents. You see a guy who scored on Draymond pretty much any time he wanted to, and you wonder why he didn't "want to" more. Or a guy who made a lot of plays with the shot clock running out when he couldn't defer.
Only in the playoffs did he feel like he needed to score and get buckets bc the team was pressed for scoring from anywhere. He also had a lot of buckets in end of shot clock situations in 2016. That season ppl remarked that the only time he'd shoot was when there was no time for anything else. He got a lot of his buckets that way that season.
Anyways, I have said it b4 that he has the Bobo gene... not the rotundness or athleticism (Boris was a tremendous athlete we all know that and I am putting it out there so ppl understand what I mean). They have or had a style that like to be too pass happy. Bobo himself said back in 2014 or so that needs teammates, he was expected to score for Charlotte and instead would get this passive thing that got him all the way to the doghouse and almost out of the league b4 Pop rescued him. Kyle has the same gene that enjoys passing just way too much. I think the dleague and summer league should have helped him to increase aggressiveness. He did have it at that level.
But then, something he mentioned in that video. Taking the challenge to play against NBA athletes, that is why he worked out in the summer with the guys that he did... and he wanted to take that challenge to be ready for the season. The amount of time that he's been benched has deprived him of the opportunities to get better. Playing in summer league and the dleague at this point for him doesn't help. He has to take up that challenge. He would have had it at least since his second season in a bad team like the Suns. Swim or sink, taking up the challenge wouldn't be an issue on his 4th season. I'd say he took the challenge well in the playoffs. He has to come in with that same mentality.
Good lord the walls of text here are impressive.
oh blake.. you have been away... can't say I missed you.
indeed. political forum type stuff.
I guess. He also seems to have the "take it for granted" gene. He mentioned that he felt that way going from HS to college, but I feel hes doing it with the Spurs too. I think hes slow in multiple ways including getting used to the NBA. Simmons just passed him right by and KAs better. I hope he gets one more good chance with the Spurs this year
Booooooo hoooooooooo please continue 25 paragraphs worth of tears.... wajhhhhhhh
....please continue 25 paragraphs worth of tears....
Hook line sinker sup
Is that what you tell women you talk to online after you convince them to meet up with you in real life?
YesIs that what you tell women you talk to online after you convince them to meet up with you in real life?
Is that what you tell women you talk to online after you convince them to meet up with you in real life?
A part of a post of mine in another thread but is more relevant here.
Curious what others think?Anderson is the guy i have no clue about.....i agree with many that he should start the season because if he can shoot he's a necessary piece to have in a G/S & OCK series but if he's still hesitating and he cant stretch the floor (i.e defenders still leaving him & baiting us to pass) then how much time should he be given before enough is enough going with another option (Gay/Bertan's)?. I hope Kyle come out swinging and just fire's away with no conscience....his career is on the line basically and its what we need to see from him so what's he have to lose? Aside from millions of dollars
1) Should he start?
2) How much time is enough time?
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