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I think he would excel in a "Kawhi" type build-up.
Defense first. He's got the body for it. Forget skinny, he's long and keeps getting smarter.
Dijon played in the dleague enough and he played the minutes available. I am taking all of DJ minutes into account. He's never shot well. Never, not in college, that's why he fell to the 29 th pick, not in the dleague, not in the playoffs and not in summer league. He's been shades of streaky, some games he looks like a star but then he has a lot of bad thrown in. Just putting it out there that my opinion isn't based on a few minutes here or there or some summer league games here or there. It's actually your opinion that's colored by a couple of good games, ignoring all the bad in between.
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There are churches fir all those guys. White had a lengthy thread abut his potential around draft day. Bertans has a church thread that's fairly active but you cab start threads if you want. Personally I prefer bumping old threads so that I cM find stuff quickly if I want to, but you are welcome to post your own if you want to.
I think he would excel in a "Kawhi" type build-up.
Defense first. He's got the body for it. Forget skinny, he's long and keeps getting smarter.
i was not asking you to justify why you think DJ could be a bust (of course he could). Just a prediction from you and others about the level DJ can reach in a best/worst case scenario and type of player he will ultimately end up for ua.
But since you mentioned the DLeague ....I'll say it again. D league, summer League = BUSH LEAGUE....DJ's working on specific things, learning the offense and guarding p&r. Throw his numbers out of the window and just look at some of the things he did in high pressure moments as a rookie in some of the games he was given a chance.
Look up a player we drafted called Marcus Williams who basically averaged a tripple double in D League & then was exposed as per par. I'm not making this up, It's been proven time and again
If Manu believes he will be an all star, I'll second that notion. I believe he will put in the work to develop a reliable jumper/3 point shot, mature to limit his turnovers, and become a good defender. He's got just as much raw talent as any late first rounder I can remember, put that in the Spurs culture and good things happen.
When you have never shot well, ever at any bush league or decent league, or any kind of league and yet you expect to be an all star it's fair to bring that up and question it frankly. Again, I can't say much about the future. Like Manu said, he has a lot of potential and he could improve soon or take time doing it. We just don't know.
Scouts do this for a living - Just visit sites like DX to see detailed reports of 100's of prospects under 18 where they try to project a ceiling or NBA comparison for the player
and DJ is not a a shooter he is a scorer who can get streaky. Another small sample was when he started the Denver game and got hot from behind the arc. i thought it was more but after watching the clip he made 3
I also believe he may struggle with his jumper and distance during his career but we witnessed TP completely rebuild his jumps shot from scratch and become reliable from mid range so maybe.
I'm more concerned with seeing him finish in the paint. Right now he relies on floaters and tear drops which is not a good shot but again TP went through this same process as a player and became elite in the paint by his 5th year.
You are just sitting on the fence after a full NBA season & playoffs instead of giving your opinion. Just take your best guess now and lets see if you feel the same way after the season.
It wasn't a difficult question. For example:
Prediction for Bertan's
Best case - Athletic Ryan Anderson or a little bit of Peja
Worst case - Matt Bonner
No star potential but could become one of the elite stretch 4 role players.
Last edited by ceds; 09-27-2017 at 09:51 PM.
Pretty sure we went back and forth for a bit on the summer league. You use examples of player who had good summer leagues but weren't NBA stars (which is how Anderson actually got brought into this). But this was a fallacious argument. There are significantly more examples of a) Players who are good having good or at least solid summer leagues and b) Players who have a handful of good games but don't turn out to be good players. Murray's summer league in 2016 was fine. He was selfish and had issues with shot-selection (meaning the floaters thing you've touched on). But for a rookie, he was fine.
The main area where I think we disagree is that you seem to have a completely different idea of what summer league is for than I do. It is not about showcasing talent. Playing poorly doesn't mean you lack talent. But for second- and third-year players, the summer league is all about showing improved skill-sets and expanded roles. Kyle was known as a passer who couldn't really shoot his rookie season. That he came into the summer league and dominated as an iso scorer was impressive, because it showed he had a completely different side to his game. Add that to his defensive boosts, and you got a guy who seemed like a one-trick pony and you ended up with a very completely prospect.
Murray hasn't shown much improvement to his game. We already knew he was a streaky scorer who has the talent to make good passes. His First Go-Around SL was fine because he showed he could do that against better compe ion. But the Second Iteration should have been him with a better shot or a stronger body to go along with a refined game. We didn't get that. We got insanely bad offense, poor scoring and bad at ude. That's not damning to him. But for a second-year guy, it wasn't meaningless. Murray's not a rookie anymore. The SL should have been beneath his level just like it was with Anderson and Kawhi (and almost every second-year player worth their salt).
The reason why his regular- and post-season games don't outweigh that is because they didn't tell us anything we didn't already know. He was streaky as in his games, shooting under 40 percent in half of them (only counting games where he took more than four shots). In the post-season, he was just as inconsistent. He had a couple of games where he racked up steals, but he did the same thing in college. It was nice but not unexpected. Nothing he did was bad for a rookie, and some of it was reaffirming. It doesn't outweigh the summer league, though. They were measuring different things. Murray had a solid starting-off point, but he hasn't really shown improvement yet.
Also, some folks don't like making "predictions". They serve no real function but to give people something to brag about. I have no idea if Murray is going to be a good player or not. I barely know what he'd need to do for me to consider him as such. All I know is that I hope he is.
1. I didn’t bring up Kyle it was CD & yourself stating that you prefer Kyles summer league > DJ’s playoffs. So then I defended my stance.
2. You said you needed evidence that DJ has been putting in work I gave a detailed post showing what we know so far.
Some people don’t like making predictions on how our top young players will turn out on a spurs message board?
You make a many posts a day on this board on less interesting subjects so i don't buy it. Another poster said you run the FA & draft board here?
I'm genuinely interested to know your and other posters thoughts on floor/ceiling not just on Murray but for a few of the young guys.
Anyway, i just watched his latest presser. He's clearly been media trained and says the right things so its hard to take much from it but you can tell he is hungry for that starting spot to start the season.
"I'm not afraid of the moment" reminds me of jax "i make love to pressure" type confidence.
Last edited by ceds; 09-28-2017 at 01:24 AM.
Shame. I was hoping that you would say he's terrible, then I would know for certain that he's going to be a great player.
I wouldn't listen to Chinook unless you want to know CBA minutia. Most here agree that he's ty at evaluating basketball players.1. I didn’t bring up Kyle it was CD & yourself stating that you prefer Kyles summer league > DJ’s playoffs. So then I defended my stance.
2. You said you needed evidence that DJ has been putting in work I gave a detailed post showing what we know so far.
Some people don’t like making predictions on how our top young players will turn out on a spurs message board?
You make a many posts a day on this board on less interesting subjects so i don't buy it. Another poster said you run the FA & draft board here?
I'm genuinely interested to know your and other posters thoughts on floor/ceiling not just on Murray but for a few of the young guys.
Anyway, i just watched his latest presser. He's clearly been media trained and says the right things so its hard to take much from it.
Got it.
I'm going to try and post some more this season so I'm sure i'll figure out the different personalities here pretty soon.
Again, tell us how LMA was definitely going to be traded this summer.
You're correct that you didn't bring up Anderson first. I apologize for that. I just knew I did. cd98 was the one who brought in Kyle's SL performance.
2. You said you needed evidence that DJ has been putting in work I gave a detailed post showing what we know so far.
If you mean my most recent post, I said we needed to see evidence that he was getting better, not that he was trying. I am not sure what post you're referring to. A lot of times you don't quote me on a response, and I miss something you said.
Yes, some people don't, which is why a bunch of folks here haven't said anything.Some people don’t like making predictions on how our top young players will turn out on a spurs message board?
I do do that. And I post pretty frequently here. But I would rather analyze than speculate. I might mention what I think has to happen for the team or a player to succeed (like saying Murray has to be able to do X, Y or Z or that White has a desirable skill-set for a starting PG), but I'm not keen to say what is going to happen. And you almost definitely won't catch me using subjective probability.You make a many posts a day on this board on less interesting subjects so i don't buy it. Another poster said you run the FA & draft board here?
I have mentioned my affinity for Murray's confidence multiple times in this and other threads. He says the right things, and if he becomes great, his personality will contrast well with Kawhi's.Anyway, i just watched his latest presser. He's clearly been media trained and says the right things so its hard to take much from it but you can tell he is hungry for that starting spot to start the season.
"I'm not afraid of the moment" reminds me of jax "i make love to pressure" type confidence.
Says "don't listen to this guy"
Proceeds to follow him around trying to see what he says.
Glad I don't have any pigtails for you to pull.
You should tell ceds how you didn't believe Kawhi should get his max extension after his rookie contract.
I would be lying. Even Dabom acknowledges that I supported the Spurs giving him the max. Though I guess you could split hairs to say I was against the extension (that they didn't offer), because I wanted them to save cap space for 2015. Turned out okay.You should tell ceds how you didn't believe Kawhi should get his max extension after his rookie contract.
I do wonder what it means for DJ if Bryn Forbes breaks out in the rotation bc he did have a good summer and POp mentioned he didn't want to talk about the young players bc he wants to let them battle minutes out, but Bryn was having a great summer and that can't be denied. There's a chance that Pop starts Patty due to him being more experienced and reliable and Bryn can better step in for Patty in the bench and replace his spacing and shooting. I bet it's at least one if the possibilities being considered.
He's a smart player. He definitely says the right things. It's easy to root for him bc he's naturally gifted for some aspects. I'd love it if he broke out this season but it's also unfair to expect that he will and then if he struggles some turn on him and say he's not going to pan out. It's really early in his career. He may struggle some, but how resilient he is to bounce back and keep working eventually that rock will crack. Maybe it won't crack in October 2017. I don't expect it to... but later? Gradually? Sure. The potential is there and he works hard enough that it can be possible.1. I didn’t bring up Kyle it was CD & yourself stating that you prefer Kyles summer league > DJ’s playoffs. So then I defended my stance.
2. You said you needed evidence that DJ has been putting in work I gave a detailed post showing what we know so far.
Some people don’t like making predictions on how our top young players will turn out on a spurs message board?
You make a many posts a day on this board on less interesting subjects so i don't buy it. Another poster said you run the FA & draft board here?
I'm genuinely interested to know your and other posters thoughts on floor/ceiling not just on Murray but for a few of the young guys.
Anyway, i just watched his latest presser. He's clearly been media trained and says the right things so its hard to take much from it but you can tell he is hungry for that starting spot to start the season.
"I'm not afraid of the moment" reminds me of jax "i make love to pressure" type confidence.
can there really be any modi of formal logic applied to the discussion of whether or not dejonte will be a star or even a role player for the spurs? highly unlikely. in the end, all that matters is anecdotal evidence and ceds brings up a valid point as to whether the best type of the former comes from a summer league or an NBA playoff game. now, one can go from there to, at best, proffer an opinion but that opinion would be based on a certain degree of conjecture. unless we get someone from inside the spurs organization to chime in on what was asked of murray in the summer league and what the impression of his performance was, we really are just stuck in conjecture. the bottom line is that we will see what his role is to start the season and how he progresses (or does not progress) from that point on. but i think we call can agree that it would be great if he were to somehow turn into the player everyone wants him to become.
I'll keep it to a minimum Chinook because i can't quote on here properly (include posters name?) yet & i cbf pulling up all of the quotes in the Kyle's Summer L MVP vs DJ Rookie playoffs discussion so lets leave that out.
I'd like to start with this because the reason for me entering this thread in the first place was because the general tone on Murray was negative. I held back after summer league but lately the posts were pushing an agenda that DJ needs to shut up, stop being his normal outgoing self , posting on social media etc. Thinking his y/confident at ude (His room with his portrait etc) reflects poorly and somehow means he's not working on his game. I'm not calling you out specifically, but you just need to read the thread yourself to see.I have mentioned my affinity for Murray's confidence multiple times in this and other threads. He says the right things, and if he becomes great, his personality will contrast well with Kawhi's.
As for the discussion over the last couple of pages.
Its hard to quote you directly because you write so much content....My last post directed to you for instance you chopped up into 5 quotes instead of a single 1 post response for example.
i'll just focus on your quote you directed to me on DJ's work ethic.
In response i made a detailed post at the top of this page about what we know so far about his off-season and later posted DJ's presser which gives us even more info . That is, unless he's all lip service. It was particularly interesting hearing him talk about the differences in summer, regular and playoff basketball & the importance of each possession at the highest level. So we now have a few positive signs from different sources that give us an indication he put in work this off-season.We need to see evidence that he's put in the work. We didn't get that in July. You can make excuses or use false logic to dismiss that, and indeed it may not end up mattering. But in the very least seeing him suck it up against bad compe ion and then mope around because of it was a wet blanket.
Now if you are moving the argument to "we need to see that he has improved" then i can agree with you because neither of us have any idea & the summer L gives no indication of whats to come.
Last edited by ceds; 09-29-2017 at 12:21 AM.
Is it really that you don't like giving player projections or is it simply not wanting to go on record on a player your not 100% sure on?
i don't understand because it seems you are happy to do a full 4 paragraph scouting report on a players strengths & weaknesses and what they need to develop most to improve but then fall short on making your outlook / projection so its only 95% complete and the most interesting part is missing from the post.
I've seen that your also a target for posters....is this why you are non-committal on a projection?
I remember chinook calling dedman a better defender than Kawhi.
The problem is that murray was even drafted as a pg when he couldnt do a fundamental thing like bring the ball over half court. Its shocking that a pg drafted to play pg couldnt do that. But it speaks volumes to how skilled the nba currently isnt. Will he get better? Yes. Would any player regardless of skill get better playing minutes? Yes.
He is not more skilled than 50% of the undrafted players, which is a common fallacy among tweens and die hard nba fans. Media hyped and duped
I'm sick of seeing your countless post like this. Just stop watching dude.
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