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I’m glad he’s getting minutes though but it’s sad that people have been injured just for him to get on the floor. If Bertans was on a team like the Rockets he would be known around the NBA.
Without Splitter we wouldn't have won it all in 2014 and his career ending injury was a huge reason why we were first round exits in 2015. I agree Bertans could be something special though.
I’m glad he’s getting minutes though but it’s sad that people have been injured just for him to get on the floor. If Bertans was on a team like the Rockets he would be known around the NBA.
If he has a good agent, his agent will be make sure he's known with GMs at least.
He has great quick release that's hard to defend against. He could be a really good player if he can consistently shoot the way he shot in this game.
This. Most people on the board suffer from long term memory loss.
Tiago was huge in 2014 (after being neutered in 2013 by the Heat) and his loss was the reason the Spurs lost to the Clippers in 2015. Pretty sure in a series decided by one basket where Baynes was getting destroyed healthy Tiago would have mattered.
What would cons ute "playing the 2"? Seriously, give one example where you can say "this is something that a 2 would do but never a 3".
And just for the record, last season Anderson and Kawhi started playing as the two starting wings because Green was injured. One of those two inevitably "played the 2" during that stretch. Who was the one? Nobody can really tell, nor does it really matter because there isn't a ing difference. People trying to find differences between the two wing positions are either trying to be too cute or don't really know about basketball, tbh.
going by bball reference. i would say that if both mills and parker are on the floor, then the next wing is not really playing the 2. or parker/green, or mills/manu, etc
It's about who they defend, that's how you can tell who is playing the SF & SG.
However, offensively on the Spurs, even the PG is interchangeable with the SG and the SF. Its not just the SF and the SG, all the perimeter positions are interchangeable as TP & Patty spend a lot of time as weak side spot up shooters . The only difference with the PG, is after a made basket, the PG brings the ball up most of the time to get into sets, which is a very easy task -- especially if there's no pressure. People make a huge deal out of the PG position on the Spurs as if they are the only players on the court with a brain that is responsible to recognize whats going on -- when in reality that's everyone's responsibility ( even if some are more aware thsn others -- regardless of position). The PG doesn't move everyone around like a chess piece -- everyone on the floor is equally responsible and helps each other out. There's times I see Lamarcus or Danny tell a player to move to a certain spot on the weakside in the halfcourt...Its not just the PG. All perimeter positions offensively are interchangeable.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 01-10-2018 at 08:16 AM.
So, it's just a matter of size and not really anything game related? If Manu is sharing the court with Tony and Mills, then he's supposedly playing the 3. What does he do differently? Maybe guard the other team's best perimeter player, just because Tony and Mills would get murdered, but that's it. Manu wouldn't need to change anything about his game on the offensive side of the floor.
Not really. Back in the days, when Bowen was suppossed to be the SF and Manu the SG. Bruce would guard whoever was the best perimeter player of the other team, and most of the times those players happened to be SG like Kobe, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Wade, McGrady, etc.
Now it happens the same, but the other way around. The guy that is mostly asigned to stop the other team's best perimeter player is Danny Green, the nominal SG.
This I totally agree with. That's why I get crazy when I see people overrating the importance of a 36 year old Tony.However, offensively on the Spurs, even the PG is interchangeable with the SG and the SF. Its not just the SF and the SG, all the perimeter positions are interchangeable as TP & Patty spend a lot of time as weak side spot up shooters . The only difference with the PG, is after a made basket, the PG brings the ball up most of the time to get into sets, which is a very easy task -- especially if there's no pressure. People make a huge deal out of the PG position on the Spurs as if they are the only players on the court with a brain that is responsible to recognize whats going on -- when in reality that's everyone's responsibility ( even if some are more aware thsn others -- regardless of position). The PG doesn't move everyone around like a chess piece -- everyone on the floor is equally responsible and helps each other out. There's times I see Lamarcus or Danny tell a player to move to a certain spot on the weakside in the halfcourt...Its not just the PG. All perimeter positions offensively are interchangeable.
defensive matchups matter quite a bit, yes. i guess to make my point you'd have to see how many minutes kawhi/anderson/gay play alongside only 1 "smaller" player (parker/mills/murray)
But that's true for any team and has nothing to do with the Spurs' system. Don't go moving goal posts son.
That doesn't make your point at all, tbh. First of all, those 3 guys haven't shared enough games to be making any kind of suggestion about their play together. And second, I don't see the correlation between Pop not playing those guys together meaning that the 2 and 3 positions, on the Spurs' system, aren't exchangeable.i guess to make my point you'd have to see how many minutes kawhi/anderson/gay play alongside only 1 "smaller" player (parker/mills/murray)
And for the record, I think that a lineup of Anderson/Gay, Green, Kawhi, Bertans/Gay and Aldridge would kill.
I certainly don't mind him getting a chance in the rotation with Gay out and Lauvergne being Jofful. But let's not overstate his case here. His stats indicate at least as much that he gets minutes when he plays well rather than he plays well when given minutes. We've all seen Bertans come in and completely up in a short stint. He gets the short hook for a reason and for his long-term future, he'll need to figure that out. Dude is likely not going to be higher than a seventh or eighth man on any team just due to his role.
i dont think it has much to do with the spurs system, dont think i said as much. i just said that gay/anderson/kawhi don't play the 2, and historically haven't
This is Pops problem though, everyone can up in a short stint, even the great Patty Mills. It's funny how you imply that everyone needs to be perfect for the first 5 minutes in order to earn a 16+ minute role. Couldn't be further from the truth. Pops problem is giving talented players like Bertans a short leash, but giving Patty and Parker a huge leash and sticking with them even if they're getting their teeth kicked in.
It amazes me how fans really assess a player because of a mistake a player makes after a 2 minute stint. Let the ing kid play.
This is the same crap that costed the Spurs in 2011 and 2012 because Pop always pulled a quick hook on Splitter for every single mistake, while he gave Blair and Bonner free reign while they the bed.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 01-10-2018 at 12:50 PM.
You said:
I took that as the 2 Spurs wings spots not being interchangeable.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. What I'm saying is that in the Spurs system, and in basketball in general, the two wings spots are pretty much the same. If you play the 3, you can play the 2 and vice versa. So you saying that Kawhi, Anderson or Gay not being recorded playing much as a nominal SG is irrelevant, tbh.
No. Parker, Mills and damned near everyone else on the team went through long periods where they got pulled if they ed up. Then eventually they played well enough for long enough that Pop relaxed. Bertans hasn't done that. He still comes in a s up, just like Murray does. When he earns the minutes, he gets them. When he doesn't, he gets the hook. The idea of letting someone play when they're a negative just because they're young is absurd. Imagine if Pop kept giving Joff a bunch of minutes with that justification.
Bertans is a pro and shouldn't keep playing like a rookie. It's one thing to complain about not playing White, who isn't worse than mediocre and is having two-way guys get time over him. Davis should have a rotation spot right now but can't hold onto it because he has so many awful stints. It's possible that this is the best way to get production out of him. (I don't think it is.)
Comparing a young promising player with an old scrub is re ed though. Of course it is more acceptable for young players to make mistake than old ones, just as it is more acceptable for toddlers to be ting themselves than 30 year olds. And it is even more acceptable when the young player shows a lot of potential.
Also, you are talking as if Bertans has been given plenty of opportunities, when that hasn't been the case at all. You could have a case if Bertans got a stint on every game and he keeps ing it up, but most of the time the kid doesn't even see the floor untill garbage time.
i generally dont think the spots are interchangeable... and i dont think the spurs are an exception
Well, the wing spots are indeed interchangeable.
it looks like we disagree there tbh, hence the amount of minutes we see anderson/gay/kawhi being listed as the SG on the floor by bball reference... i doubt their estimates are perfect, but they seem to be extremely one sided on the issue.
i dont know if anyone has that link of 5 man rotations... but i'd be curious to see how often anderson/gay have been in lineups with only 1 "smaller" player on the floor next to them (ie patty, tony, murray, manu, green, paul)
Anderson, Kawhi and Gay have played together only two games and in both of them either one, two or all of them were on minutes restriction.
Give them time to get healthy and share the floor and I'm sure one will be listed as the nominal SG at some point. Not that it really matters, tbh. This is just a technicality that you are clinging on to not concede defeat.
dont be obtuse. we can still look at anderson/gay's minute distribution in games that kawhi wasn't playing. how often did they play as the 2?Anderson, Kawhi and Gay have played together only two games and in both of them either one, two or all of them were on minutes restriction.
heres a link of all 5 player lineups used by the spurs: https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanc...sort=MIN&dir=1
go ahead and show me how many of them have either gay, anderson, or kawhi playing as the 2
edit: i've looked at all lineups that have seen at least 5 minutes, and this is the only one i saw that would meet that criteria, and its been employed a total of 1 time this year for 5 minutes
L.Aldridge, K.Anderson, P.Gasol, K.Leonard, T.Parker
there, kawhi would be the presumptive 2... but there have been NO lineups i've come across where anderson/gay were in that spot. so as much as you'd like to say they're interchangeable, i cant come to terms with the claim that while rudy gay and bryn forbes shared the floor as the "wings", that their roles were interchangeable. and you can certainly argue that when the squad is healthy, we will see more of that lineup... but even then, kawhi is the variable there. not anderson/gay, which are the two players who i claimed have held bertans' minutes back.
Last edited by spurraider21; 01-10-2018 at 02:06 PM.
What do you think is the best way?
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As an aside, I agreed others have also gone through periods of short hooks... the veterans sometimes still get them too. (and are made much fun of here when they do, Tony and Danny specially. Pop also still does mass subs utions when he doesn't like what he's seeing from a group... even if it is maybe 2 guys in the group that are f*cking up. Everyone has criticized this from Pop... It's something JSimms said he couldn't handle last season and he had a rotation spot.... I not making that up. He said he couldn't deal with him getting a short hook from Pop if he was messing up.
Pau gets sat down when he's getting taken advantage of or is a TO machine (happened in the Milwaukee game.. Pau has since been playing very well, but his minutes have varied and he's gotten less time if he's not playing well and is getting taken advantage of, even with the team's lack of depth at bigs spots. He's lately playing a lot because he has been playing very well most games, the same can be said for Manu)
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Anyways, the worry about a fully healthy rotation is right now hypothetical. The team isn't fully healthy unfortunately.
"The Year of Bad Fortune"
Davis would sometimes come in and TO the ball right away, just his first possession, or would mess up defensively, just immediately. He had opportunities early in the season when he got the short hook bc he would seriously come in and make 2 or 3 mistakes in a row.
He has lately cleaned that up enough to earn the coach's trust and his playing time reflects it. He has earned playing time, and gained confidence which is big for the team and himself.
What happens when Rudy gets back? I am not sure, Rudy will get reintegrated and others minutes will diminish. But the playing time he has gotten is valuable still. I think with how much Pop loves shooters, Davis will have his time in the limelight too. He may play odd lineups, he may play next to Rudy Gay as a C... we may see him in different roles. I think he's earned playing time and that is for Pop to figure out.
Re ed is missing the point that those "old scrubs" started off in Bertans' position before earning a consistent role. Before Parker and Patty were guys Pop played too much, they were guys Pop didn't play enough. The same from Green, Leonard, Anderson and frankly a list of guys who have played for Pop over the years.
It's not more acceptable for a fringe rotation player to make a mistake. Pop already knows what he has in the vets (and he likes it). Bertans is supposed to come in and show why he should be on the court, and he hasn't done that a lot this year.Of course it is more acceptable for young players to make mistake than old ones, just as it is more acceptable for toddlers to be ting themselves than 30 year olds. And it is even more acceptable when the young player shows a lot of potential.
Bertans has had his share of ty stints. Pop seemed completely prepared to use Davis in the role he eventually gave to Bonner in 2012-2016. When you're in that role, you can't start off by throwing the ball out of bounds then leaving your guy open on the other side of the court. He did that a lot to start the year, and a number of fans were pissed at him for it. He should have come in ready to shoot and knowing what to do on the court, and instead he continued his ty play from the summer league. Had he come in, hit his shots and not been a negative, then we could debate him getting more time. As it is, he's been awful to many times. Pop rewards him when he does well, and that's more than fair given how many combo-forwards are on the roster.Also, you are talking as if Bertans has been given plenty of opportunities, when that hasn't been the case at all. You could have a case if Bertans got a stint on every game and he keeps ing it up, but most of the time the kid doesn't even see the floor untill garbage time.
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