What's up with Bertans?

[DAF86]

What about ability to catch and shoot in a mili-second, pass the ball, put the ball on the floor and create, block shots, ability to stay with perimeter players, etc?

[Seventyniner]

What about ability to catch and shoot in a mili-second, pass the ball, put the ball on the floor and create, block shots, ability to stay with perimeter players, etc?

The thing is that Bonner wouldn't work well in today's league and Bertans wouldn't have played much 10 years ago. They are actually fundamentally different players who only get directly compared because of their hair and skin color. Bonner was a stretch 5 and played on-ball/post defense. Bertans is a stretch 4 but plays weakside defense, mostly from the perimeter. Bertans is more directly comparable to someone like Anthony Tolliver or Steve Novak and I would take Bertans out of those three easily.

Bertans definitely has a quicker release (though that's not saying much compared to Bonner) and is a better rim protector and passer. I think Bonner had better counter-moves when run off the line and it's hard to deny that he was a better rebounder, so-so vs Bertans's atrocious.

[MaNu4Tres]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

[spurraider21]

But you did get into that philosophical argument and you still aren't able to give me one good argument about why the 2 and the 3 are different.

they're different on the spurs because pop treats them diffferently

[r0drig0lac]

lol "prime" Bonner

[Em-City]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

Except ferry was a better defender

[TheDoctor]

lol "prime" Bonner

Exactly

[Seventyniner]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

More versatile, sure. I don't agree with "better" but that's a matter of opinion. I do agree that Bertans would have played SF almost exclusively a decade ago, many more PFs played in the post then and Bertans wouldn't be able to defend them.

Bonner played more in 2011-2012 (10 straight playoff wins, conference finals appearance) than he did in 2009-2010 (swept in second round) which weakens the correlation. Bonner, along with Blair, was playing too high in the rotation for his skillset imo. He was a great 4th big but a subpar 3rd one and an atrocious 2nd.

[cutewizard]

Whos the better shooter, Bertans vs Bonner??

[DAF86]

they're different on the spurs because pop treats them diffferently

I'm talking about basketball in general. You said that TO YOU the 2 and the 3 were different. I want to know TO YOU, what does those two positions differ in?

[spurraider21]

I'm talking about basketball in general. You said that TO YOU the 2 and the 3 were different. I want to know TO YOU, what does those two positions differ in?

Defensive matchups.

Also teams can generally get away with a 3 that can’t shoot if he’s Uber athletic. Can hardly be said for 2’s except like tony allen

[spurraider21]

Whos the better shooter, Bertans vs Bonner??

In-game is Bertans for sure. Quicker and higher release gives him way more opportunities

[MaNu4Tres]

Bonner played more in 2011-2012 (10 straight playoff wins, conference finals appearance) than he did in 2009-2010 (swept in second round) which weakens the correlation. Bonner, along with Blair, was playing too high in the rotation for his skillset imo. He was a great 4th big but a subpar 3rd one and an atrocious 2nd.

Your memory is wrong.

Bonner barely played in 2011- 2012 playofff run ( when Spurs won 10 straight) -- 11-12 mpg in the playoffs -- most in mop up duty). Splitter and Diaw were the main bigs outside of TD to get minutes.

Bonner had a significant role when they lost in the first rounds 09' (started) & 11' (first big off the bench) and 10' (first big off the bench) when they got swept by the Suns. It took Pop 2 years to finally realize that Tiago was the 2nd best big (tied w/ Diaw). Tiago should have started from his rookie year all the way through 2014 (except with a few matchups). That's Pop though, slow as molasses to make the necessary personnel adjustments because he overvalues experience and loyalty.

[TimDunkem]

I specifically remember the commentators lamenting during the embarrassing 2011 loss to the Grizzlies that the Spurs were desperately trying to run their offense through Bonner in the pick and pop, but - yeah - let's pretend that he totally didn't have a big role on offense, or defense when he was getting butt ed by Z-Bo and Darrell ing Arthur while Tiago Splitter watched.

[MaNu4Tres]

I specifically remember the commentators lamenting during the embarrassing 2011 loss to the Grizzlies that the Spurs were desperately trying to run their offense through Bonner in the pick and pop, but - yeah - let's pretend that he totally didn't have a big role on offense, or defense when he was getting butt ed by Z-Bo and Darrell ing Arthur while Tiago Splitter watched.

All while, Pop sat Splitter until game 6.

[DAF86]

Defensive matchups.

Bowen would guard from Lebron and Carmelo to Kobe and Wade. Most teams always have a defensive minded wing and an offensive minded one, the defensive minded wing will always guard the other team's best player, no matter if it is a 2 or a 3.

Also teams can generally get away with a 3 that can’t shoot if he’s Uber athletic. Can hardly be said for 2’s except like tony allen

lol that's total bull .

Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, Demar Derozan, Dwayne Wade, Corey Brewer, Lance Stephenson. And back in the days, many many more.

[spurraider21]

Bowen would guard from Lebron and Carmelo to Kobe and Wade. Most teams always have a defensive minded wing and an offensive minded one, the defensive minded wing will always guard the other team's best player, no matter if it is a 2 or a 3.



lol that's total bull .

Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, Demar Derozan, Dwayne Wade, Corey Brewer, Lance Stephenson. And back in the days, many many more.

some players can play both roles. its why we sometimes see manu at the 3 but never see forbes at the 3. and there are guys who can play the 3 but not the 2...

but yes, there are bunch of tweeners that can do both. rudy gay and kyle anderson aren't, or at least pop hasn't shown that he believes they can. the bottom line and original point of all this, that you are now trying to get away from for some reason, is that bertans couldn't get on the floor because of gay/anderson... because pop DOESN'T just slide them down to "the other 'interchangeable' wing spot"

[DAF86]

some players can play both roles. its why we sometimes see manu at the 3 but never see forbes at the 3. and there are guys who can play the 3 but not the 2...

but yes, there are bunch of tweeners that can do both. rudy gay and kyle anderson aren't, or at least pop hasn't shown that he believes they can. the bottom line and original point of all this, that you are now trying to get away from for some reason, is that bertans couldn't get on the floor because of gay/anderson... because pop DOESN'T just slide them down to "the other 'interchangeable' wing spot"

Pop has played Anderson at the 2 before.

And I'm not trying to get away from any argument, I already conceded that Pop is playing Bertans just when one of Gay or Anderson are missing, but that has been my whole point since the beggining: that he should change that because Gay and Anderson can easily be moved to any of the other wing spots to make room for Bertans at the stretch 4 position.

[SAGirl]

Pop has played Anderson at the 2 before.

And I'm not trying to get away from any argument, I already conceded that Pop is playing Bertans just when one of Gay or Anderson are missing, but that has been my whole point since the beggining: that he should change that because Gay and Anderson can easily be moved to any of the other wing spots to make room for Bertans at the stretch 4 position.

That is true, and I agree.

For now, while the team has injuries, a rotation like what we saw in Sacramento is probably going to be what we continue to see pretty much (only less White, and BP3 when Manu is playing, unlike it happened in that game, and more Dijon just bc now Tony returned to the injured list). Davis has been the 3rd big in that rotation.

But I do wonder if when Rudy is back healthy Pop is just going to play a duo of Rudy/Davis and not a lineup you proposed earlier that sent Pau to the bench. It seems like a very Pop thing to do to play Rudy/Davis. We really haven't seen it, bc for a while Pop was insisting that Joff is an NBA player I guess (and I suspect Davis miscues grabbing rebounds annoyed Pop, just a hunch). Rudy playing all available minutes at the 4 that Lamarcus wasn't playing was the real reason I think Pop first tried to play Joff. He wanted to find a big to complement Rudy and he thought a center (Joff) would be that player.

4 months later Joff is barely playable while Davis has come on strong. I don't think Pop will ignore how well Davis is shooting and has been playing. The spot the team really has had open for most of the season is a bench big spot that Pop had tried to pin on Joff but Joff couldn't hold on to it. So I kind of expect Pop to experiment with Rudy/Davis combos before having to try something else if that doesn't work.

IMO, Kyle was probably going to remain a wing with a healthy roster anyways bc one wouldn't want to play undersized munchkin combos of Mills, Bryn and Manu that have been getting eaten alive on defense all season as far as we have seen.

[Seventyniner]

Your memory is wrong.

Bonner barely played in 2011- 2012 playofff run ( when Spurs won 10 straight) -- 11-12 mpg in the playoffs -- most in mop up duty). Splitter and Diaw were the main bigs outside of TD to get minutes.

Bonner had a significant role when they lost in the first rounds 09' (started) & 11' (first big off the bench) and 10' (first big off the bench) when they got swept by the Suns. It took Pop 2 years to finally realize that Tiago was the 2nd best big (tied w/ Diaw). Tiago should have started from his rookie year all the way through 2014 (except with a few matchups). That's Pop though, slow as molasses to make the necessary personnel adjustments because he overvalues experience and loyalty.

Seems that we agree that the Spurs were best when Bonner was in the correct role, 4th big and 9th or 10th man in the rotation. I just don't think Bertans is necessarily any better suited to a higher role in the rotation than Bonner ever was.

[MaNu4Tres]

Seems that we agree that the Spurs were best when Bonner was in the correct role, 4th big and 9th or 10th man in the rotation. I just don't think Bertans is necessarily any better suited to a higher role in the rotation than Bonner ever was.

There's no point in debating about who we think is better ( Bertans or Bonner), as the answer to that question is very subjective. I personally think Bertans offers a much more effective and versatile game than Bonner. That's my opinion. So agree to disagree.

[Seventyniner]

There's no point in debating about who we think is better ( Bertans or Bonner), as the answer to that question is very subjective. I personally think Bertans offers a much more effective and versatile game than Bonner. That's my opinion. So agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

[wildbill2u]

I wonder if Bertans could pass well enough to work into the Pau replacement in the high/low tandem with LMA> Pau is a great passer, but some days the shootiing just isn't there to compliment it. Bertans has shown some flashes lately of being able to drive to the basket which gives him another dimension. Every player has bad and good qualities and it is hard to compare them, but Bertans is more mobile than Bonner and is as good a shooter when he is on.

[cd021]

I wonder if Bertans could pass well enough to work into the Pau replacement in the high/low tandem with LMA> Pau is a great passer, but some days the shootiing just isn't there to compliment it. Bertans has shown some flashes lately of being able to drive to the basket which gives him another dimension. Every player has bad and good qualities and it is hard to compare them, but Bertans is more mobile than Bonner and is as good a shooter when he is on.

Bertans has impressed me with some of the passes that he has made this season but Gasol really is one of the most gifted big man passers in NBA history.

[SAGirl]

Did anyone notice Davis had his knees wrapped up in a heat pad in the bench?

I think it's foolish to expect him to handle starter's minutes. He's had two ACL tears in one knee, is slight of build/frame and weight and he has to get physical blocking out players for rebounds and such. He plays at a fast pace and is really a gunner at heart. I know Spurs don't want him to be just a gunner (RC said this during summer league), but the rest of his offensive game, including his passing follows from his aggressive shooting mentality and his quick release causing aggressive close outs. He has microwave like potential (he's like a 6'10" Paddy in that sense)... For now, I tend to think Davis is better as a bench sparkplug, kinda like how Chinook describe his optimal use.

Still him and Gasol wasn't as good a pairing as some here thought. Partly bc Gasol didn't play well, but Davis also didn't add to the game with errant passing (3 TO) in 16 minutes, plus 3 PF.