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No one uses OWS to measure the offense. That's just total offense production. Not how you affect the offensive flow of the game.
OBPM is a better indicator. Specially when comparing 0.1 vs -2.6.
No one uses OWS to measure the offense. That's just total offense production. Not how you affect the offensive flow of the game.
It’s like arguing which is better: , diarrhea or crap.
negative OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP-3.5 is twice as bad as last year.
same as last season
Enough diarrhea and you can die. Porker is diarrhea.
Sure but it’s not across the board painting an ugly picture on offense for TP like Murray. Murray ORPM is 432 out of 472 qualified players. He’s been horrific.
I’m not arguing TP has been good. He has not been good. He’s a negative overall. I”m saying Murray is FAR AND AWAY the worst offensive guard on the team and maybe the worst offensive player on the team (that matters)
I'm not comparing Tony to Murray, I'm just disproving the other poster's comment about the Spurs' offense running better with Tony. That's a common place folks in here like to go when in reality that hasn't been the case for the past 3 or 4 years.
Its running with better with TP over Murray that’s for sure. But like I and others have tried to explain: YES Murray is a net positive so far, but the teams offense is horrible and he’s a huge part of that. He will not play a lot let alone start as long as Pop is trying to tinker in season with the offense to see if he can find something that works.
TP is better at many phases of running an offense than Murray/Mills - arguing that is just silly. It’s not like that means he’s great or something. Its an indictment of just how bad Mills/Murray are as well.
Are we doing this again? Only thing porker can run is to the food table after games.
Was thinking about Spurs' willingness to move on from key role players in the past and the Green rumors this past off season being a good sign that Mills wouldn't be exempt.Walker, Williams for Mills, Gay, Murray, 1st.
Parker doesn't have a choice. The sentimental value he has to Spurs is far greater than his actual value at this point. No one is clamoring for his services.
Spurs won't disrespect him with their offer, but he's not getting Mills' contract either. He's the starter in name only. In reality, they split the position. The latter got his for 3 reasons: 1) His untimely shoulder injury in '14 cost him money then and they felt indebted that someone who'd made relatively nothing to that point played through a significant injury to help them win a championship, 2) he's never had a relatively big contract and this was his last shot at one, 3) they misread the market.
Walker and whatever salary they attach, will cost in excess of $25M through next season, then more for at least a season after while Walker gets a significant raise and whoever was sent with him is still on the books for at least the first season of that. In other words, they're going to have to take some salary back, especially if they intend to extract reasonable value.
I'm not saying this would be a great trade for them, but based on plenty of star trades (also, Walker is a lesser one playing the league's most saturated position), it's not far fetched and would save them a lot of money going forward.
When he's in there with the starters, the flow of the offense is much better. Our top 3 scoring lineups all include Parker. In reality, its tough to use any sort of stats due to the volatile nature of our lineups and injuries we've been having.
But for example, Murray with the starters vs Parker with the starters shows them scoring 8 points more with TP and turnovers more than double with Murray.
Sure, Tony looks more confident dribling a ball. To the eyes it seems like he runs a pick and roll prittier, but then you go and watch the stats and for the past 3 or 4 years the offense does better with Patty in there instead of Tony.
I agree, & Patty being a shooting threat definitely helps. Him trying to be more of a traditional PG I think has hurt his overall shooting cause he's trying to do new/different things. I think Pop alluded to some of his struggles could be due to the added responsibilities
The discussion was more about TP struggling to shoot the last 3 games and people using some lazy arguments for their agendas
this is spot on.
You’re a clown.
someone's finally learning
Nah - you just got exposed again with your terrible takes. I knew once I challenged you that you would back down and go away.someone's finally learning
“but but but let’s talk about defense now because I can’t answer the questions!”
when you are in a dogfight arguing why a washed up injury prone Tony is better by just a hair in terms of impact on the team than a project player who can't shoot for squat and is terrible offensively most of the time, you are in a losing position IMO. Neither is a starting caliber PG for a contender.
If Tony keeps shooting at TOSB Kobe levels, at least Murray can defend. They may not be winning games anyways.
I am all for a trade. Murray may eventually be better but there's no guarantee that happens and this team is allegedly a win now team.
Ya - we all know that ^ that is no where near what the “debate” is about. But people here mostly have terrible comprehension as it is.
I really don’t know how to explain this anymore than I have either. The Spurs defense overall has been very solid. The offense has been really bad.
Everyone knows that all the guards have been really bad overall and aren’t starting caliber. However, with offense being by far the biggest issue and Murray being the WORST offensive guard, Pop is searching for offense while he can. It’s the regular season and Pop’s only objective is not to win as many games as possible.
He’s trying to figure stuff out while trying to win and for now it’s less Murray since he’s trying to solve the offense and Murray doesnt do that.
Yes, we know that when Murray sucks on offense his defense can still make an impact. Pop knows that. But that is not what Pop cares about at this time. He cares about getting the offense going while he still can.
How long will that go on if Mills/Parker or others don’t step up? I don’t know. But it’s obvious what Pop is doing and the logic behind it.
Everyone here, including me, hoped Murray would take over but he got his chance and blew it. He will likely get more chances and for the sake of everyone maybe he can learn not to be atrocious on offense on a consistent basis and SA will be better for it.
It's funny how people use the " but Tony runs the offense better" cliche excuse like it's 2012 still.
When in reality, his role has been moved to an off ball 18 foot spot up jump shooter most of the time when hes on the floor. So he runs a PnPop where he can make an easy and predictable pass to LA 4 times a game, that's not impressive and that doesn't count for running an offense.
Reality is, even if Tony & Patty are obviously better on offense, they still aren't good enough to handle an adequate load for the gravity of their offense to really make a big enough difference. They both have small offensive roles, the same as just about any guard on the team as possessions are pretty balanced throughout the guards & wings in the rotation.
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