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I didn't say he was terrible. I said he consistently played worse, and to stop blaming his dip in play on his teammates.
As far as the 95 playoffs go, going from 28 a night on 53% to 25 a night on 45% would be considered worse.
I was in 8th grade and had a major dilemma on my hands for game 5. Field trip to Great America in the wayI came really close to skipping the trip and staying home. Dad taped it on the VHS for me but when I got home I could tell from his body language it wasn’t good
I didn't say he was terrible. I said he consistently played worse, and to stop blaming his dip in play on his teammates.
As far as the 95 playoffs go, going from 28 a night on 53% to 25 a night on 45% would be considered worse.
Robinson was the James Harden of his era, tbh, historically great RS player with very few notable playoff moments, nothing wrong with that..at least his most embarrassing playoff moment was against a legend like Pedolajuwon, though, rather than 8th man Jonathon Simmons
What a ty analogy. Robinson was a 2-way superstar, one of the best defensive players ever in his prime. Harden is one of the worst defenders of all time among star players. There was a whole segment on TNT dedicated to making fun of his defensive lapses.Robinson was the James Harden of his era, tbh, historically great RS player with very few notable playoff moments, nothing wrong with that..at least his most embarrassing playoff moment was against a legend like Pedolajuwon, though, rather than 8th man Jonathon Simmons
And on top of that, he might never match David's career high in points. He MIGHT get a quad double...if you include turnovers.
Last edited by Arcadian; 02-14-2018 at 03:44 AM.
FIRST POINT:
If you don't understand that the defensive game plans that coaches employ across a Playoff SERIES are different (sometimes drastically so) than the game plans they employ in the Regular Season then I don't know what to tell you.
It's a chess match (especially against potential playoff opponents).
How many times have we seen Pop "throw" games against potential playoff rivals just so that he doesn't reveal his strategy to them? He does it all the time. Even Kerr reciprocated last year when he sat out Thompson, Durant and Curry for a game against the Spurs in San Antonio last March. This tactic has been used since the Pat Riley Showtime Laker days. Detroit's Chuck Daly was probably the master of it.
All to say that most teams didn't necessarily create a strategy for double-teaming Robinson throughout the regular season - they didn't have to. Besides, the specificity of such a defensive scheme still requires coaching (who you can sag off of?, when do you sag off of them?, does the double team come from the baseline or the paint?, is it a hard double-team?, do you double before they receive the ball?, do you double after they receive the ball?, do you double off a pick?, etc...) Those strategies have to be discussed at depth and usually during the regular season pre-game prep discussions don't have the required level of specificity. But during the playoffs? Pre-game prep takes on an entirely different dynamic. Every player's in-game idiosyncrasies are meticulously studied and exposed.
SECOND POINT:
Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Avery Johnson, etc... were NBA level players during the regular season. Come playoff time, when the opposition was generally better, when the defenses were tighter, when the pressure was on, when the game was on the line - they fell short.
Again, clutchness is a distinct attribute altogether, related to but not completely dependent on talent. Some players have it, others don't. That's why your assertion that Olajuwon would've won with the likes of Avery and Del Negro is preposterously ridiculous. Olajuwon feasted on the post-season clutchness of his shooters.
EVERY SINGLE Championship run for the past 40 years or so has required big, clutch shots from someone other than the star player (game winners, daggers, etc...).
The 80's Lakers had Sam Perkins, Byron Scott, and A.C. Green making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Magic Johnson, James Worthy and Kareem.
The 1983 Sixers had Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney and Bobby Jones making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Moses Malone and Julius Erving.
The 80's Celtics had Danny Ainge, and Dennis Johnson making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.
The 1989-1990 Pistons two-peat had Vinnie Johnson and Mark Aguirre making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars.
The 1991-1993 1st Bulls three-peat had John Paxson, Craig Hodges, B.J. Armstrong, and Horace Grant making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.
The 1994-1995 Rockets two-peat had Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, and Kenny Smith making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler.
The 1996-1998 2nd Bulls three-peat had Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.
The 1999 Spurs had Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr and Sean Elliott making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan and David Robinson.
The 2000-2002 Lakers three-peat had Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Brian Shaw making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant.
The 2003-2007 Spurs had Steve Kerr, Stephen Jackson, Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, and Michael Finley making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker.
The 2004 Pistons were pretty much all clutch shooters (sans Ben Wallace who anchored their defense) with no real superstars.
The 2006 Heat had James Posey, Antoine Walker and Gary Payton, making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Dwayne Wade and Shaquille O'Neal.
The 2008 Celtics had James Posey and Eddie House making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.
The 2009-2010 Lakers had Derek Fisher, Metta World Peace and Lamar Odom making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.
The 2011 Mavericks had Jason Kidd, Peja Stojakovic and DeShawn Stevenson making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Terry.
The 2012-2013 Heat had Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen and Mario Chalmers making critical baskets which took the pressure off of LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade.
The 2014 Spurs had Danny Green, Patty Mills, Manu Ginobili, Marco Belinelli and Boris Diaw making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Tony Parker.
And so forth...
the point is,
Robinson's supporting casts prior to Duncan's arrival did NOT have the capacity to hit big shots. YET you keep holding David accountable for that. NO TEAM HAS WON the NBA le without such contributions.
That's not my argument at all...
Olajuwon NEVER rang other than when he had the proper combination of clutch shooters, and good coaching. Why is that so difficult to understand...?
Last edited by Phenomanul; 02-14-2018 at 12:03 PM.
That was a great last post. Entirely true. Every championship team has role players who hit BIG shots.
Another way to look at this- Olajuwon MISSED THE PLAYOFFS during his prime. If was single handedly able to lead teams to championships, how can that be?
This happens for all superstar players. Some, like Jordan, Hakeem and Duncan don't consistently play worse in the playoffs. Robinson did. Stop trying to blame his teammates for his decrease in play. Heaven's no...he was double-teamed.
As far as the rest of your post, no one wins without help. However, Robinson had enough help to beat the Rockets in 95 and he had enough help in other seasons to advance further in the playoffs. Unfortunately, his game consistently shrank when the Spurs needed it to elevate.
Who said he did? However, unlike Robinson his playoff performances weren't routinely worse. They were better, even when he had garbage supporting casts. So trying to blame Robinson's teammates for his dip in play is laughable. Noting he wasn't doubled as much in the regular season is even more laughable.
However, Robinson had enough help to beat the Rockets in 95 and he had enough help in other seasons to advance further in the playoffs. Unfortunately, his game consistently shrank when the Spurs needed it to elevate.
That is the essence of this debate. Stop saying he had the teammates to win. He didn't. It would be different if other guys were making big shots and Robinson choked it away. But that's not true.
How many championship teams were led by stars who played worse in the playoffs?
The 91/92 Rockets went 42-40 (51% clip), and missed the playoffs by one game. Hakeem played 70 games, and they went 40-30 (57% clip). They went 2-10 in the games he missed (17% clip). They missed the playoffs because they couldn't win without him.
Stop blaming his teammates when his level of play decreased. ALMOST EVERY YEAR. Playing worse on a consistent basis when it matters most is the definition of choking. You would have a point if his play stayed consistent, but it didn't. It consistently was worse.
We'll agree to disagree.
Yeah, Hakeem missed the playoffs in his prime, while David on the other hand, has NEVER finished lower than 2 place in his division.
Shake my damn head... scoff.
David Robinson had a decent supporting cast during his first two seasons, and decent coaching. His play during the playoffs was as good or better than the regular season those years. STILL they couldn't go far because of specific plays here or there that didn't go the Spurs' way. Strickland's last minute turnover in the waning seconds of Game 7 at Portland, and running into the Mullin / Hardaway / Richmond train at Golden State just as they were peaking. Even so Robinson's numbers in that 1991 series were ridiculous (25.8 PPG, 68.6 FG%, 13.5 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.5 SPG, 3.8 BPG).
AGAIN get it through your thick stubborn brain, it wasn't until David's starting squads featured Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson that playoff defenses sagged off of them to double or triple-team David --> Terry mings blew his knee, Willie Anderson's game fell off a cliff --> HENCE David's playoff efficiency took a hit. You couldn't employ that defensive strategy with any of the other star players on the championship squads I listed precisely because their teammates would make you pay dearly for it. The causality factors are related, not independent. You keep trying to assert that the EFFECT is the CAUSE, your logic is flawed.
Suggesting that NBA teams decided not to double Robinson until the playoffs is laughable. If NBA coaches see that you can hold Robinson in the mid 40% range in the regular season if you double him then they won't concede games and give up mid 50% range shooting, which makes it harder to win games. This is pathetically laughable. And even if that were true (which it clearly isn't), STAR PLAYERS SHOULD PRODUCE WHEN DOUBLED ANYWAY. So Robinson was great as long as you didn't double him? That's who you want leading your team.
Flawed logic indeed.
And as you emphasize championship rosters, you keep conveniently ignoring that other star players like Jordan or Hakeem didn't have these dips in their play even when they weren't surrounded by great talent. No matter the help, they didn't get worse when it mattered most until they were old versions of themselves. No matter how often they got doubled or tripled.
No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).
Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?
Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.
Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways?
Very well done. I have didn't have the effort to write all that but you said it better than I could have.No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).
Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?
Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.
Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways?
I was really bummed for a while when they lost- but in retrospect...No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).
Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?
Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.
Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways?
The Spurs had a Guard Trio of Avery Johnson, Vinnie Del Negro and a one legged Doc Rivers- the Rockets-- Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler and Sam Cassell (+/- Mario depending on what you call a 2 or 3). Sam and Kenny where Good. Pretty big difference. Avery became a better shooter by 99, but in 95 couldn't hit anything outside the paint.
David averaged only 16 shots a game during the series and over 21 the previous 9 playoff games. FTs where similar. Why- because Houston was able to double down. In contrast, Hakeem took 28 shots a game. No double teams there. Could you imagine letting someone hot get off that many shots?
I don't deny Hakeem had an awesome playoff run- but it's a team sport and the Spurs where lacking in help for Mr. Robinson. Some of it was just plain nuts (Rodman +/- Hill not making adjustments)adjustments), some of it was just a lack of surrounding talent.
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