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definitely thought he deserved PT after that game he looked good in.
tony's VORP is now -0.3, forbes' is -0.4.
You are mostly right; positions matter less and less, however a PG still has the ball in his hands more than a SG. Regardless, I am accustomed to think of 6th men/leaders of the second unit as energizers, and I am not certain that describes White. But I have seen very little of him. I do think he seems better suited to that role than as a replacement for Danny.
definitely thought he deserved PT after that game he looked good in.
tony's VORP is now -0.3, forbes' is -0.4.
Mills is shooting .382% from 3, which is 1.1% worse than his career average. His true shooting % is .571, which is 1.2% greater than his career average. Granted, both his career marks would more than likely be higher if not for '14-'15, when he was coming off of shoulder surgery and was clearly not the same, but still.
The point is, he's playing at about the same level he almost always has and the reason the perception is otherwise, is because he's been overextended in a myriad of ways: from too many minutes and P-n-R opportunities, to briefly starting early and now defending shooting guards.
I seriously doubt they preferred Mills to Green and like I said, the plan was clearly to retain as much of the core as possible, barring a superstar or close wanting to sign with them (as if).
Thanks for the stats. Hard to believe. I do not know if there are stats that show such things; but I wonder if his "over-extension" has resulted in a decline in his spot-up percentage. He seems much less reliable on those open spot-ups than I remember in prior years. But you raise an interesting question that has occurred to me just in this latest 2-game experiment of Pop's: if Patty's time/usage returned to closer to his career averages, I wonder if his knack for spot-ups would improve.
Another good game by White today.
Those stats make the contract even more embarrassing. $50mm
White has better court vision than Murray. More of a PG. amazing he doesn’t get PT withe thevSpurs.
Exactly, and it’s not even close. And that isn’t even a knock on Murray because White has better vision than all the guards except Ginobili and Parker. He always makes the simple play. He anticipates.
I think people are really underestimating the idea that Pop WANTS to run two-PG lineups. It's not just a quirk of the current roster. He built it to be this way, and he put Danny on notice saying he'd be moved in an effort to bring in a PG. There were rumors the year before that too with Conley. I don't think the idea of Murray and White both being PGs and starting bothers Pop in the slightest, and I'm frankly surprised that it bothers so many STers, given how many folks complain about Green not having a good enough floor game. Murray's offensive limitations but a ceiling on what the duo could accomplish, but the idea of having two guards playing interchangably on both ends hardly seems like a cause for concern.
I can easily see Murray and White playing together but on offense at this point White would be serving much more as a traditional PG, handling the ball, distributing for others, shooting. At this point White appears to better long and mid range and at the basket. They would be a very nice defensive, rebounding combination. White, Murray, Leonard would be a great perimeter defensive combo provided Leonard is still around and can wipe his ass.
I've mentioned this ad-nauseum to Jeff and a few other SAEN characters.
Mills numbers are identical across the board. What makes him look bad are because of two reasons:
1) Spurs finally have other options besides declining/s of himself Tony Parker for Patty to compete with. Having better all around and more impactful options, such as Murray and White, have made a lot of the fans aware how bad (overall) Tony and Patty have been in recent years. Seeing that kind of overall impact from DeJounte and Derrick ( in small samples) have helped people realize the glaring warts in the overall game of Tony and Patty. Thank God this has finally happened somewhat (Derrick needs more time).
2. He's getting paid 50 million over 4 years now. Making that kind of money, has only made fans pay more attention to his game. Now fans are realizing how bad he actually is outside of spotting up. Everything else he's below average at. If he was still making 3 million, no one would be complaining.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 03-05-2018 at 09:23 AM.
Good points. But, Patty's spot–up shooting seems to have declined this year. The late game open-gym clank against LA was only the most recent example of his missing such wide-open shots.
I agree about Pop, but every coach in the NBA wants to run 2 PG lineups. Provided one of them has the capability to defend actual SG's, it's great... The problem is paying for it, especially with other stars. A decent PG who can defend up is a premium player... add another decent PG, and 2 Stars (Kawhi, LMA), and another decent big, and a decent bench. The salary cap exists and this franchise functions within that structure.
It hasn't. He's in the 97th percentile in spot ups averaging 1.34 ppp -- which makes him in the top 3 in the NBA w/ players over 100 attempts.
You're probably just becoming aware of how streaky he is because of the contract.
Yeah, thanks for looking that up. I know he has been streaky, but it does seem like his percentage on "big" shots isn't what it was. He has hit some shots every season that fueled big, important runs, and such, that he just hasn't seemed to hit this season. Instead of bringing the crowd to their feet in those big moments, he sends them slumping back in their seats. Perhaps that is just perception, though - and tainted by the whole TURRIBLE season.
It makes sense ... Derrick and Murray not lacking in size and defensive ability makes it a very interesting combination. It would suck to lose Danny to keep Mills though, but we don’t know what’s coming this summer...
Think that’s a factor as well as him playing more minutes than ever and being relied on for crunch time minutes in close games. The glaring thing for me is how limited he is everywhere else but shooting. I don’t really want him to take PNR opportunities from Kyle for example yet he gets 3 times as many... and he absolutely kills your defense.
Spurs are allowing 109.2 points per 100 possessions when Mills is on the floor, 100.7 points per 100 possessions when he's off. When Mills is on the floor, Spurs morph into the 18th best defense. In the past 4 games, Mills has played more minutes than any other player and Spurs are 1-3 allowing 117 points per game.
Current PG RPM rankings throughout the NBA:
Murray at 19th
White at 40th ( small sample)
Mills at 43rd
Parker at 78th
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 03-05-2018 at 02:15 PM.
Tony has been really bad. Pop is a lot more judicious in how he plays him. He’s getting his minutes cut if he’s a TO machine, he’s not closing games and he has been demoted. Bc of his smaller role he’s now not getting a lot of heat but if he was still starting and closing games etc., ppl would complain about how hard he has fallen. Ideally I want him to retire. He doesn’t want to and won’t so maybe he doesn’t get overrelied on anymore and gets a small vet deal, but Spurs would still be tied up with Mills/Tony for many years...
The bolded is just dumb rationale. I really don't think Pop is that narrow minded to think " Patty is great at spot up shooting. He need to play 35 minutes to get our offense going." That's like dabom saying, "I made a DeJounte thread a year ago, I should take RCs job and take all of his responsibilities." There's several other factors of the game that need to be considered when making decisions. Can Pop be that narrow minded to ignore the other aspects? He is extremely smart, so that's doubtful. Then again, he's probably one of the most stubborn coaches in the NBA when it comes to his vets -- no coach comes close.
Patty needs to be a 15 minute spark plug and nothing more. However, I'm afraid if Pop were to demote him (like he should), it would be sub optimal for his value headed into the summer as it would handcuff them in negotiations. Having him in a larger role right now would increase the amount of factual ammunition Spurs would have at their disposal to discuss during negotiations -- it optimizes his perception and value. The best Spurs can hope for is trading him without attaching a 1st round pick and maybe taking back a salary that has 1 or 2 years left. If Spurs were to demote him and play Murray more, and give White more burn, then it would likely cement the fact that the Spurs would have to include maybe 2 first rounders to get rid of him.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 03-05-2018 at 02:27 PM.
Not sure it's dumb rationale. Pop has been waffling with his rotations all season but at least we all thought he was still trying to win games. So what's going on now? Legit and honest question. Is he not worried anymore about losing games? Is Patty not going to be exposed more as a PG who cannot win games in such a large role? I am not sure the Spurs can fool anybody about him, but there can be teams out there that just need an elite spot up shooter and can return him to a smaller spot up role and don't care about anything else. He's overpaid for a small role of that nature but maybe a good opportunity arises. I am not sure Spurs don't want him back. We will have to see what happens.
there is a middle ground between danny green and a point guard, when it comes to ability to put the ball on the floor
Green's not as far off the average as people are suggesting. He's able and more importantly willing to do more than just spot up. Folks still complaining act like he's the opposite of Murray and Anderson, but he's not. You want someone to make flashy moves with the ball in the half-court, you want a PG, not a two-guard. Of course, most teams don't have all three perimeter players with great floor games, so even when Green didn't have a better game off the dribble, the criticism was still unwarranted.
Since players of all positions come with all different skillsets, when are we going to start labeling the player by their skillsets instead of by their labeled position?
Spurs need another strong PnR initiator/play-maker from the perimeter with the starters and off the bench (that can come from any position on the perimeter -- not just PG). Murray has begun to show improvement and has been more effective in this area the past 5 weeks with the starters, but they'll need him to keep improving further. White shows good ability in the PnR, but Pop has pretty much made his decision with him this year.
You want someone that can put pressure on the rim from the PnR, creating open opportunities for teammates in the half court -- that isn't just a labeled PG, it can be a SG ( like White) or a SF (Kawhi).
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 03-05-2018 at 05:35 PM.
White is going to be a good NBA player just because he can shoot.
Imagine Brogdon & White as our future back court.
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