ESPN's Kevin Pelton thinks Murray should be first team All-NBA defense

[SAGirl]

I assume you are talking to me. Haha. Just a Bryn defender from people who trash on him because they want to see White playing. White will get his shot next year I think and his time in G league is paying off for the future.

I suppose you are one of those fans that thinks the system alone is responsible for good defense. I am in my phone and thus not in the mood for my usual characteristic long posts. I also have little patience for biases. You think any of the other guards in the team is capable of what’s dijon has done this season suit yourself. Not even going to address KA.

[SpursDynasty85]

I suppose you are one of those fans that thinks the system alone is responsible for good defense. I am in my phone and thus not in the mood for my usual characteristic long posts. I also have little patience for biases. You think any of the other guards in the team is capable of what’s dijon has done this season suit yourself. Not even going to address KA.

You didn't carefully read my posts. DJ is a solid defender but it is laughable to think he is all nba defense this year. He has a good shot next year. This year he had spectacular plays but also a lot of bad ones plus he is benched consistently in crunch time. There are much more deserving players. If he is all NBA defense this year he must be perennial dpoy candidate soon because he can obviously improve a lot

[SAGirl]

You didn't carefully read my posts. DJ is a solid defender but it is laughable to think he is all nba defense this year. He has a good shot next year. This year he had spectacular plays but also a lot of bad ones plus he is benched consistently in crunch time. There are much more deserving players. If he is all NBA defense this year he must be perennial dpoy candidate soon because he can obviously improve a lot

You have a good point there.

[dbestpro]

I think most have missed the point. Its not about how good Murray is at defense, but rather how bad the NBA is at defense, overall.

[MannyIsGod]

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

Is the award not a full season award?

[SpursDynasty85]

My theory on why Kevin Pelton is saying this is DJ's potential to be a great defender and wanting to call it out early and getting more analysis cred.

Without looking at numbers, Aldridge deserves consideration this year and hopefully he gets at least 2nd team all nba this year. He has been such a rock for the Spurs this year.

[Chinook]

Is the award not a full season award?

It is, but it's not awarded to bit players off the bench. Murray's defensive numbers as a starter are lower than his total numbers. It's possible that by completely ignoring how Murray fares at actually stopping guys from scoring, you can make the argument that DeJounte deserves the spot regardless. But that does't make claims citing his on-offs less disingenuous.

[dabom]

DM is a mini-Kawhi on defense. Will stat stuff the box score with rebounds, steals, blocks, timely plays, a little clutch factor.

Can't wait to see DM and Kawhi playing in the future

[BillMc]

Pelton also didn't name LMA to his all -offensive team. LaMarcus who is averaging 23.4 on .514 shooting, both career highs.

So, whatever.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...ffensive-teams

[tholdren]

I think most have missed the point. Its not about how good Murray is at defense, but rather how bad the NBA is at defense, overall.

Ding ding ding

[acoelho1]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

[tholdren]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

Go away you dont watch games

[cjw]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

[duncan2k5]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

Nah... That would only make sense if the Spurs were a bad defensive team, and Murray had great defensive metrics in relation to other spurs... But he has the best defensive point guard metrics by a significant margin... Give props where props is due...

[Chinook]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

You just thoughtlessly posted a stat that's been long-discussed in this thread because you read so little of what was being said that you thought it was being ignored. You accuse me (I assume) of having a "baseless argument", when you're simply trying to pick the low-hanging fruit that happens to support your argument. That is about as thoughtless as it gets. I feel that comes from your already-established keeness to defend Murray from any criticism. The idea that Murray is 21 or has potential has literally nothing to do with this thread, but you still brought it up a few posts back as if it were a counter-argument.

My points were not hate, nor were they poorly supported. Talking about what are glaring holes in Murray's defense shouldn't be off limits, but that does not seem to matter to you and others who seem to think that what we say has any effect over DeJounte's fate. Us "believing" in Murray or "giving him some time" won't make him any better or worse. We're just fans for 's sake.

[Chinook]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

Murray will have great defensive stats so long as he remains a prolific rebounder. That's one of the main drivers in most metrics. It certainly doesn't hurt that he's also elite in steals and shot-blocking. All three of those things are important to a defense, and they are the basis of these awards. But being prolific in this context doesn't make one so in all contexts. Being an elite defender can mean ac ulating elite defensive stats, but it can also mean being a go-to defender in important situations. DeJounte is arguably the former already, but he's not much closer to the latter than Mills is.

[acoelho1]

Go away you dont watch games

Tough guy hiding behind his momma’s computer. Go read a book genius.

[wildbill2u]

The team's defensive success this year hasn't been a one man show; it has been a team effort. There were some surprises. LAM and Kyle played better than I thought they would or could. Kyle has learned to make up for slo-mo with his height advantage and reach around long arms. He usually plays within his abilities.

Green has been something of a disappointment. Coming from behind to make blocks isn't a subs ute for consistency in defending his man one on one. He still gets beat all the time on the high P&R, not something a premier defender should allow, especially if you are matched up with the opponents' best guard.

Murray gets a lot of defensive rebounds down low, but i have to wonder what his man is doing while Murray is hanging around the basket. In general, leaving your man in order to lone-wolf is not good in a team defensive scheme, but if it bites you in the ass it usually isn't picked up as a stat. I've noticed Gay tends to do the same thing with his man over in the short corner 3 area.

[SAGirl]

Danny has been injured and hobbled through the season. He has been tasked with defending guys bigger than him in the small lineups and maybe it has taken a toll. I agree this hasn t been a great year for him defensively. He has been very inconsistent
although I was puzzled at first by Pop waffling between starting Gasol or Danny, I think he has had to go back to Gasol bc Danny's not at 100%

[acoelho1]

So he’s elite in rebounding, steals and blocks at his position and the Spurs are considerably worse defensively when he’s off the the court. I guess that means he’s not great defensively.

[acoelho1]

You just thoughtlessly posted a stat that's been long-discussed in this thread because you read so little of what was being said that you thought it was being ignored. You accuse me (I assume) of having a "baseless argument", when you're simply trying to pick the low-hanging fruit that happens to support your argument. That is about as thoughtless as it gets. I feel that comes from your already-established keeness to defend Murray from any criticism. The idea that Murray is 21 or has potential has literally nothing to do with this thread, but you still brought it up a few posts back as if it were a counter-argument.

My points were not hate, nor were they poorly supported. Talking about what are glaring holes in Murray's defense shouldn't be off limits, but that does not seem to matter to you and others who seem to think that what we say has any effect over DeJounte's fate. Us "believing" in Murray or "giving him some time" won't make him any better or worse. We're just fans for 's sake.

Sorry, I have a life so I don’t comb through every post. However, I did see you dismiss stats by simply saying you haven’t verified them for yourself. You clearly have a bias towards Murray for whatever reason and defense is more than just on ball. What good is defense if you can’t rebound the ball which Murray is at an elite level. He’s elite defensively at 21 and will only get better.

[acoelho1]

...

[Chinook]

Sorry, I have a life so I don’t comb through every post. However, I did see you dismiss stats by simply saying you haven’t verified them for yourself. You clearly have a bias towards Murray for whatever reason and defense is more than just on ball. What good is defense if you can’t rebound the ball which Murray is at an elite level. He’s elite defensively at 21 and will only get better.

You need to focus less on assuming what people mean and more on trying to read what they actually wrote. I never said that I couldn't verify what those stats are right now. Instead I said I couldn't verify that they had not changed recently. With his on-offs, there's a record on this site of it dropping by a lot recently. So that is something we can verify. It's not a hard distinction to grasp if you brought just a bit more effort.

Lazy is taking a number you likely don't understand (because the formula and methodology aren't clear) and trying to beat back everyone else with it. If you actually looked at the official NBA stats I posted, you'd see they have Murray as a mostly ineffective defender at stopping guys from scoring on him. That is not the only aspect to defense, but it's a huge one, and one that will only become more critical as teams adjust to him. Covering that up with accusations of me having some grudge against him won't change that.

[HarlemHeat37]

FYI, the Spurs' primary defenders opposing FG%:

Murray- 47.7%
Anderson- 47.1%
Gasol- 45.5%
Green- 44.9%
Aldridge- 43.5%

Obviously have to use context, but same applies to using RPM, etc..

[acoelho1]

Lazy is taking a number you likely don't understand (because the formula and methodology aren't clear) and trying to beat back everyone else with it. If you actually looked at the official NBA stats I posted, you'd see they have Murray as a mostly ineffective defender at

I understand that you want to ignore his defensive rating which measures his impact per 100 possessions. It’s a fact that the Spurs are considerably better defensively with him on the floor. It’s a fact that he is an elite rebounder. What good is on ball defense if you can’t rebound the damn ball. In fact rebounding is probably the most important aspect of a defense. Ask any coach worth his salt and they will tell you the same thing. In addition, he’s elite in the passing lanes with steals and deflections. Does he have issues on that side, yes and I would be the first to say that he gambles too much and needs to get stronger. However, he’s pretty damn good on that side of the ball and numbers and eye test shows it. I stand by my statement that you have a bias when it comes to Murray so you can save your arguments for someone else.