Why We Have to be Cautious in Transforming Society

[ElNono]

Only to be followed with some frivolous question that ignores all reality. I mean just look at the first comment by mono. Nobody actually believes that but it's frivolous remark that he was compelled to make. Not exactly the ecosystem that encourage one to put substantial effort into a thread. So I just post things that I think are interesting. A conversation can still happen from that point.

I still have no idea what you think about the topic. I mean, now I know you find it interesting.

I see DMC at least stepped up to the plate, which is good!

[ElNono]

First we need to agree that the term "illegals" is referring, in large part, to people who otherwise have done nothing to be considered a threat to the public. That if we were born in the squalor they were, we'd probably be here illegally as well. Once we do that, we need to agree that these are human beings, not pieces on a chess board separated by imaginary lines.

Ok, now we've done that, we need to decide if the plight of people from other countries, even bordering ones, are more important than our own. We need to prioritize our own issues. Getting new computers in your local school could be more important to you than the fact that several families who weren't born here could perish in the desert while trying to get here so they can survive. We need to find a way to make coming to the US easier. We need to put our resources in immigration, not against it. We need to not equate all immigration with illegal immigration, and not equate illegal immigration with home intruders.

There's also natsec implications with border crossing, tbh... this is a complex topic that needs engagement... unfortunately simple solutions like 'build a wall!' are not the answer. There really is no silver bullet here.

This is, again, an area where better oversight, clear policy need to be guided by better understanding of the economic impact, national security, birth rates, etc.

[Chris]

Twitter CEO says we all need to be more like California

[ElNono]

i'd like to think of it more like... they should revolt vs their own gov's and change their countries for the better instead of camping out in ours. create the change, be the change.

we have too many people here as it is and feelings don't need to get involved in this issue. yeah it's sad human lives are at stake trying to cross the border but why is that our problem?

A lot of these countries are democracies and capitalist (ie: Honduras)... there's nothing to revolt against. There is pervasive corruption in leadership, true, but that's also cultural at this point.

They're just poor and small countries, and mostly are used as the cheap labor/dumpster of the industrialized world.

Lack of opportunity is the main motivator in a lot of cases.

[Nathan89]

I still have no idea what you think about the topic. I mean, now I know you find it interesting.

I see DMC at least stepped up to the plate, which is good!

The second post should give you some idea on what I think.

[ElNono]

Twitter CEO says we all need to be more like California

Here's the last part of the series, which was linked in the tweet:

https://medium.com/s/state-of-the-fu...ar-e52e2861f30

[ElNono]

The second post should give you some idea on what I think.

But I don't. That's commentary on the video, not what *you* think.

[Spurminator]

Twitter CEO says we all need to be more like California

Boycott Twitter!

[ElNono]

Actually, it's a great read indeed. You might not agree with the conclusions drawn, but the historical background of the current polarization makes complete sense, tbh.

[koriwhat]

Boycott Twitter!

jack the free speech oppressing satanist.

[Nathan89]

First we need to agree that the term "illegals" is referring, in large part, to people who otherwise have done nothing to be considered a threat to the public. That if we were born in the squalor they were, we'd probably be here illegally as well. Once we do that, we need to agree that these are human beings, not pieces on a chess board separated by imaginary lines.

Ok, now we've done that, we need to decide if the plight of people from other countries, even bordering ones, are more important than our own. We need to prioritize our own issues. Getting new computers in your local school could be more important to you than the fact that several families who weren't born here could perish in the desert while trying to get here so they can survive. We need to find a way to make coming to the US easier. We need to put our resources in immigration, not against it. We need to not equate all immigration with illegal immigration, and not equate illegal immigration with home intruders.

That's irrelevant. If that's a major factor then we should just go ahead and welcome billions of people. Obviously I can see why they would want to come over here. I can also see why a homeless person would want to sleep in my house. I still don't think it's acceptable for them to break in. We have a legal process for immigration.

Yeah, I've decided and the plight of our own citizens is more important than citizens from other countries. They are capable of improving their own countries. Sure it's a slow process but that's a process that every country needs to go through. Yeah, just like all the luxuries in your life is more important than providing for hundreds of people in Africa.

Nobody equates all immigration with illegal immigration. Literally nobody. Illegal immigration is everyone that doesn't go through the legal process.

There is significant benefit to the rest of the world to making America the best country possible. Welcoming hoards of people that don't even learn the language, just take advantage of the welfare state, just want to bring their own country into this country and not integrate with what has made this country successful is not going to help us.

In an era of automation and welfare you simply can't let whoever wants to come over here just come. We should recognize that they can make a difference in their country or the process will just persist forever. We already provide immense charity to the world. We create great innovations that improve the world. That is the process in which we should help the world not open our boarders to anyone that wants to come here. Long term that just doesn't help as many people.

[Nathan89]

There's also natsec implications with border crossing, tbh... this is a complex topic that needs engagement... unfortunately simple solutions like 'build a wall!' are not the answer. There really is no silver bullet here.

This is, again, an area where better oversight, clear policy need to be guided by better understanding of the economic impact, national security, birth rates, etc.

We can start with getting rid of anchor babies, cracking down on employers, and not letting them free load the system.

[Nathan89]

But I don't. That's commentary on the video, not what *you* think.

Well I think this perceptive is "reasonable" like I stated.

[ElNono]

That's irrelevant. If that's a major factor then we should just go ahead and welcome billions of people. Obviously I can see why they would want to come over here. I can also see why a homeless person would want to sleep in my house. I still don't think it's acceptable for them to break in. We have a legal process for immigration.

Yeah, I've decided and the plight of our own citizens is more important than citizens from other countries. They are capable of improving their own countries. Sure it's a slow process but that's a process that every country needs to go through. Yeah, just like all the luxuries in your life is more important than providing for hundreds of people in Africa.

Nobody equates all immigration with illegal immigration. Literally nobody. Illegal immigration is everyone that doesn't go through the legal process.

There is significant benefit to the rest of the world to making America the best country possible. Welcoming hoards of people that don't even learn the language, just take advantage of the welfare state, just want to bring their own country into this country and not integrate with what has made this country successful is not going to help us.

In an era of automation and welfare you simply can't let whoever wants to come over here just come. We should recognize that they can make a difference in their country or the process will just persist forever. We already provide immense charity to the world. We create great innovations that improve the world. That is the process in which we should help the world not open our boarders to anyone that wants to come here. Long term that just doesn't help as many people.

This is what I'm talking about!

I agree that illegal immigration is not the answer, even if for different reasons. Realistically speaking, some of the US Economy thrives on the low-wage, temporary workers, and in that case what's going to need to happen is to sort those cases out.

The biggest problem is that ending illegal immigration, much like the drug trade, is not a solvable problem overnight. It's probably even more complicated than the drug trade, in the sense that a lot of illegal stays stem from originally legal visitors.

On the other hand, closing that area can severely impact local economies that rely on tourism, like Florida, New York, etc.

I still think attacking this through better oversight on employers is probably the right way to go.

[Nathan89]

A lot of these countries are democracies and capitalist (ie: Honduras)... there's nothing to revolt against. There is pervasive corruption in leadership, true, but that's also cultural at this point.

They're just poor and small countries, and mostly are used as the cheap labor/dumpster of the industrialized world.

Lack of opportunity is the main motivator in a lot of cases.

Yeah, we should let hoards of people with the culture of corruption come into the US at free will. Thanks for outlining the problem of not controlling the boarder. And if these are the people that lack that culture then we are doing a disservice to their country by allowing them to come here. They are part of the solution for their country. Leaving them their leads to the best outcome long term.

[ElNono]

We can start with getting rid of anchor babies, cracking down on employers, and not letting them free load the system.

Anchor babies is really an oversight problem again. If you can't stop the illegal from coming in, after that, you're screwed.

The main reason is the same we spout for the 2nd Amendment: it would take a Cons utional amendment to modify the 14th Amendment, and in the current political climate, it's simply not viable.

Agree about employers though, as I pointed out earlier.

[koriwhat]

Actually, it's a great read indeed. You might not agree with the conclusions drawn, but the historical background of the current polarization makes complete sense, tbh.

lmao

"Life on the Other Side of Democratic One-Party Rule

There is life on the other side of that Republican political collapse. There is a clear way forward in the land of Democratic, progressive supermajorities. California is thriving right now, the economy is booming, state government budgets are setting aside surpluses, and the public is happy with its political leaders (as we have laid out in other articles in this series). California is leading the world in technological innovation and creative policies to counter climate change."

ATX is going to be a hole soon enough too. calilosers bringing not only high prices to residences but also skidrow to 6th street. california!

as well, mr. peter leyden sounds like he has the whole DNC in his throat. hope he has a great gag reflex.

[ElNono]

Yeah, we should let hoards of people with the culture of corruption come into the US at free will. Thanks for outlining the problem of not controlling the boarder. And if these are the people that lack that culture then we are doing a disservice to their country by allowing them to come here. They are part of the solution for their country. Leaving them their leads to the best outcome long term.

I didn't say we should let anybody in, I'm trying to explain where the plight comes from.

It's easy to sit in the big couch and theorize about how people can wait 60+ years for their government/country to get better/change.

In the real world, people have more immediate needs: want to send their kids to the actual local country college, but can't afford to do so, etc.

One could just pretend this stuff doesn't happen, but they do. People that migrate ain't doing it generally for adventure. They're normally addressing some specific needs.

[Nathan89]

Anchor babies is really an oversight problem again. If you can't stop the illegal from coming in, after that, you're screwed.

The main reason is the same we spout for the 2nd Amendment: it would take a Cons utional amendment to modify the 14th Amendment, and in the current political climate, it's simply not viable.

Agree about employers though, as I pointed out earlier.

Anchor babies is a motivation for illegal immigration. If you get rid of it there will be less of it.

Of course it's not likely at the moment. Dems want them future voters as well as a notch to win the current Hispanic vote.

[ElNono]

lmao

"Life on the Other Side of Democratic One-Party Rule

There is life on the other side of that Republican political collapse. There is a clear way forward in the land of Democratic, progressive supermajorities. California is thriving right now, the economy is booming, state government budgets are setting aside surpluses, and the public is happy with its political leaders (as we have laid out in other articles in this series). California is leading the world in technological innovation and creative policies to counter climate change."

ATX is going to be a hole soon enough too. calilosers bringing not only high prices to residences but also skidrow to 6th street. california!

as well, mr. peter leyden sounds like he has the whole DNC in his throat. hope he has a great gag reflex.

He's completely correct about the polarization though... we can disagree about whether the country is ready to go California-style or not (and most southerners will probably disagree) as he mentions, but the historical context about the 1930's and polarization back then is actually interesting and no less true.

Political climate has become very toxic, and the gap and vitriol between left and right is only getting wider. At some point, something gotta give.

[ElNono]

Anchor babies is a motivation for illegal immigration. If you get rid of it there will be less of it.

Of course it's not likely at the moment. Dems want them future voters as well as a notch to win the current Hispanic vote.

Can't even clear Obamacare, and you want to modify the Cons ution? Yeah, it's not happening. But there's other ways to address it.

[Nathan89]

I didn't say we should let anybody in, I'm trying to explain where the plight comes from.

It's easy to sit in the big couch and theorize about how people can wait 60+ years for their government/country to get better/change.

In the real world, people have more immediate needs: want to send their kids to the actual local country college, but can't afford to do so, etc.

One could just pretend this stuff doesn't happen, but they do. People that migrate ain't doing it generally for adventure. They're normally addressing some specific needs.

That's how the world operates. It takes generations of people fighting for progress to make things better for the long run. It's an unfortunate reality.

On the individual level I recognize what people want. The homeless people in your city want you to let them sleep in your house. The want of others is not your duty.

Sure, and billions of people have those same needs. Our country also has needs and that doesn't involve providing welfare to illegals. It involves a legal process to immigration. This safe guards our culture from becoming corrupt like you mentioned was the norm in those other countries. If you just accept enormous amounts of illegals you can up the system for everybody.

[Nathan89]

Can't even clear Obamacare, and you want to modify the Cons ution? Yeah, it's not happening. But there's other ways to address it.

It's a goal. I didn't say it was likely to happen at this very moment. A second go your perspective of anchor babies was an oversight issue. It is indeed a motivation for them coming here in the first place. Now one more American has a better perspective.

[koriwhat]

He's completely correct about the polarization though... we can disagree about whether the country is ready to go California-style or not (and most southerners will probably disagree) as he mentions, but the historical context about the 1930's and polarization back then is actually interesting and no less true.

Political climate has become very toxic, and the gap and vitriol between left and right is only getting wider. At some point, something gotta give.

the dude isn't interested in both sides obviously and thinks his side has taken us to the promised land. has he actually looked around california or is he just falling in line like most cult members?

here's to hoping him and those like him just stay out west and never venture past those fault lines which might one day sink them all.

[koriwhat]

That's how the world operates. It takes generations of people fighting for progress to make things better for the long run. It's an unfortunate reality.

On the individual level I recognize what people want. The homeless people in your city want you to let them sleep in your house. The want of others is not your duty.

Sure, and billions of people have those same needs. Our country also has needs and that doesn't involve providing welfare to illegals. It involves a legal process to immigration. This safe guards our culture from becoming corrupt like you mentioned was the norm in those other countries. If you just accept enormous amounts of illegals you can up the system for everybody.