Why We Have to be Cautious in Transforming Society

[ElNono]

That's how the world operates. It takes generations of people fighting for progress to make things better for the long run. It's an unfortunate reality.

On the individual level I recognize what people want. The homeless people in your city want you to let them sleep in your house. The want of others is not your duty.

Sure, and billions of people have those same needs. Our country also has needs and that doesn't involve providing welfare to illegals. It involves a legal process to immigration. This safe guards our culture from becoming corrupt like you mentioned was the norm in those other countries. If you just accept enormous amounts of illegals you can up the system for everybody.

It's easy to say that now, but the US has been deeply involved in a lot of these countries, shaping both the economy and government, not always in hopes of improving the actual countries.

So, again, the discourse of what you want is understandable, but some people would like you to walk in their shoes and see what decisions you would make in those positions.

[ElNono]

the dude isn't interested in both sides obviously and thinks his side has taken us to the promised land. has he actually looked around california or is he just falling in line like most cult members?

here's to hoping him and those like him just stay out west and never venture past those fault lines which might one day sink them all.

Have you actually read the article, or just skimmed through it?

He draw parallels on the political climate in California in the 90's and the current federal political climate.

[Nathan89]

This is what I'm talking about!

Yeah, I use the video to start the conversation. If people disagree we can go from there.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I use the video to start the conversation. If people disagree we can go from there.

I didn't even watch the video, but your thoughts, I'm sure, are way more interesting.

I can't reply back or have a chat with Mr Peterson, tbh

[koriwhat]

It's easy to say that now, but the US has been deeply involved in a lot of these countries, shaping both the economy and government, not always in hopes of improving the actual countries.

So, again, the discourse of what you want is understandable, but some people would like you to walk in their shoes and see what decisions you would make in those positions.

we were lucky enough to be born here in the USA. sorry to all those who weren't but it isn't our responsibility to deal with them and allow them in this country. why is that so hard to understand?

i don't fault those that try to come here and those that are here illegally but go back to your own country and be the change you want to see. we aren't the world's savior and we have plenty of our own people struggling that need help first.

i don't give a about their plight at all. sorry but not sorry.

as much as i wish everyone world wide prosperity the "progressives" utopia is nothing more than a trojan horse of sorts.

[BD24]

Lol at conservatives in here saying California is a mess. High salaries, a booming economy, the most gdp of any state, an amazing job market, fantastic companies headquartered there.

yea what a hole.

Lol at these same stupid asses saying Austin will be “ ” soon as well. Austin is an extremely nice city which shares many of the qualities listed above.

i would love to hear the definition of a great state/city from those on the right. Please enlighten me with what you are looking for

[koriwhat]

Have you actually read the article, or just skimmed through it?

He draw parallels on the political climate in California in the 90's and the current federal political climate.

I didn't even watch the video, but your thoughts, I'm sure, are way more interesting.

I can't reply back or have a chat with Mr Peterson, tbh

i watched nathan's video, because i like peterson, and i also read the whole article you linked to.

[Nathan89]

Lol at conservatives in here saying California is a mess. High salaries, a booming economy, the most gdp of any state, an amazing job market, fantastic companies headquartered there.

That has nothing to do with illegals.

[BD24]

That has nothing to do with illegals.

So why is California a mess?

what makes a great state/city in your opinion?

[ElNono]

we were lucky enough to be born here in the USA. sorry to all those who weren't but it isn't our responsibility to deal with them and allow them in this country. why is that so hard to understand?

i don't fault those that try to come here and those that are here illegally but go back to your own country and be the change you want to see. we aren't the world's savior and we have plenty of our own people struggling that need help first.

i don't give a about their plight at all. sorry but not sorry.

as much as i wish everyone world wide prosperity the "progressives" utopia is nothing more than a trojan horse of sorts.

I wasn't born in the US.

Your post illustrates the disconnect though, but I'm not faulting you.

As I've learned through the years, the average American is fairly disconnected from what their government does overseas, unless a war happens, etc.

I've found most Americans to be largely compassionate and good people, regardless of political leaning. That's why I'm not faulting them, there's just part of the story they don't know about.

[ElNono]

i watched nathan's video, because i like peterson, and i also read the whole article you linked to.

You don't think the parallels drawn about the vitriol and polarization of the political climate in the 90's in Cali and the US in the 30's are interesting? I thought they were.

Everybody has their own cup of tea, I guess.

[BD24]

Kori doesn’t do critical thinking bono. You should know this, valiant of you to try and engage with him though.

[koriwhat]

Kori doesn’t do critical thinking bono. You should know this, valiant of you to try and engage with him though.

perception my friend... yall don't really engage me like el nono is doing at the moment. i'm more receptive to el nono's posts tbh. never had a problem with him at all not even after all these years.

[koriwhat]

btw, i would really have to go back and reread sections of that article to get a better grasp on it. i read it but i'll give it another go here soon enough.

[ElNono]

btw, i would really have to go back and reread sections of that article to get a better grasp on it. i read it but i'll give it another go here soon enough.

You don't have to. I wouldn't bet $1 the outcome he predicts would come through right now, but I did find the parallels he drawn interesting nonetheless.

[Expert]

i'd like to think of it more like... they should revolt vs their own gov's and change their countries for the better instead of camping out in ours. create the change, be the change.

we have too many people here as it is and feelings don't need to get involved in this issue. yeah it's sad human lives are at stake trying to cross the border but why is that our problem?

We don't have too many people. We don't have control over what their country does or what they do, only what we do. We can hope but we have to deal with reality. In reality poor folks are coming into the US looking for a better life. It's our problem because humans are humans, and I happen to care about lives.

[Expert]

That's irrelevant. If that's a major factor then we should just go ahead and welcome billions of people. Obviously I can see why they would want to come over here. I can also see why a homeless person would want to sleep in my house. I still don't think it's acceptable for them to break in. We have a legal process for immigration.

We don't have billions of people trying to get in. This country isn't your house. The border isn't owned by you. Like I said, we cannot treat illegal immigration like a home intruder. If someone broke into my home because they were starving to death and their kids were also, I'd feed them. Actually they only need to knock.

This is why I say the immigration system needs resources, then illegal immigration wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. There are issues all around that building a wall won't eradicate, just like building a wall around your house won't stop homeless people from dying on the street out front. If you choose to live in a neighborhood where neighbors allow people to die without offering help, that's on you. Hard to believe that's a Christian value though.

Yeah, I've decided and the plight of our own citizens is more important than citizens from other countries. They are capable of improving their own countries. Sure it's a slow process but that's a process that every country needs to go through. Yeah, just like all the luxuries in your life is more important than providing for hundreds of people in Africa.

Your ancestors didn't improve their own countries. They came here. The immigration system needs work. It shouldn't be so hard to get legal status here.

Nobody equates all immigration with illegal immigration. Literally nobody. Illegal immigration is everyone that doesn't go through the legal process.

Not true. You have no idea how many illegals are in the US. You only know legal immigration numbers. If the US has enough people already, why does it matter if more are legal or not? All immigrants should be do ented.

There is significant benefit to the rest of the world to making America the best country possible. Welcoming hoards of people that don't even learn the language, just take advantage of the welfare state, just want to bring their own country into this country and not integrate with what has made this country successful is not going to help us.

There are parts of NY where Italian is still spoken. In Chinatown Chinese is spoken. Same in many different areas. The Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc... all built this country. Even my people, the Native Americans, they came down from up North chasing food. It's what people do. Putting invisible or visible borders won't stop that. I will just create more division.

The US isn't England. Why should everyone speak English?

In an era of automation and welfare you simply can't let whoever wants to come over here just come. We should recognize that they can make a difference in their country or the process will just persist forever. We already provide immense charity to the world. We create great innovations that improve the world. That is the process in which we should help the world not open our boarders to anyone that wants to come here. Long term that just doesn't help as many people.

I am not in favor of porous borders. I am in favor of understanding why they want to be here and not blaming them for coming. Sure their country should get their act together, they won't. All we can do is what we are capable of doing.

On one hand you say we should be a great country. On the other you don't want others to want to come here. Those seem to be in direct conflict with each other.

[Spurtacular]

Another youtube video I didn’t watch

Thanks for that public service announcement, monoslob.

[Nathan89]

We don't have billions of people trying to get in. This country isn't your house. The border isn't owned by you. Like I said, we cannot treat illegal immigration like a home intruder. If someone broke into my home because they were starving to death and their kids were also, I'd feed them. Actually they only need to knock.

This is why I say the immigration system needs resources, then illegal immigration wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. There are issues all around that building a wall won't eradicate, just like building a wall around your house won't stop homeless people from dying on the street out front. If you choose to live in a neighborhood where neighbors allow people to die without offering help, that's on you. Hard to believe that's a Christian value though.

Your ancestors didn't improve their own countries. They came here. The immigration system needs work. It shouldn't be so hard to get legal status here.

Not true. You have no idea how many illegals are in the US. You only know legal immigration numbers. If the US has enough people already, why does it matter if more are legal or not? All immigrants should be do ented.

There are parts of NY where Italian is still spoken. In Chinatown Chinese is spoken. Same in many different areas. The Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc... all built this country. Even my people, the Native Americans, they came down from up North chasing food. It's what people do. Putting invisible or visible borders won't stop that. I will just create more division.

The US isn't England. Why should everyone speak English?


I am not in favor of porous borders. I am in favor of understanding why they want to be here and not blaming them for coming. Sure their country should get their act together, they won't. All we can do is what we are capable of doing.

On one hand you say we should be a great country. On the other you don't want others to want to come here. Those seem to be in direct conflict with each other.

With your leadership we'd turn this country into the type of country they are fleeing. That's what happens if you don't restrict immigration. It's not comparable to immigration in the past. The welfare state is much more expansive than in the past. Therefore, immigrants have different motivations. The journey for old immigrants used to take 12 weeks and then was reduce to a week. There was a filtering process that simply doesn't happen when illegals come from Mexico.

On one hand you say we should be a great country. On the other you don't want others to want to come here. Those seem to be in direct conflict with each other.

No, I'd prefer to educate our citizens not illegals from Mexico. Protecting our culture is also important to be a great country and infusing vast amount of people in short periods of time that don't give a about it ruins the foundation of the country.

There are parts of NY where Italian is still spoken. In Chinatown Chinese is spoken. Same in many different areas. The Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc... all built this country. Even my people, the Native Americans, they came down from up North chasing food. It's what people do. Putting invisible or visible borders won't stop that. I will just create more division.

The US isn't England. Why should everyone speak English?

Correct. We have pockets of many different types of people and then we have Mexico flooding our country for decades. That's not a pocket.

Not true. You have no idea how many illegals are in the US. You only know legal immigration numbers. If the US has enough people already, why does it matter if more are legal or not? All immigrants should be do ented.

There are an estimated 12.5 illegals in the US.

The immigration system needs work. It shouldn't be so hard to get legal status here.

Why not? I want quality immigrants. I want people that know about the country. I want people that are going to contribute more than they take. We take in a lot of legal immigrants. Perhaps that could use a boost but it still mean the majority of the illegals don't get to come over here.

[Nathan89]

We don't have too many people. We don't have control over what their country does or what they do, only what we do. We can hope but we have to deal with reality. In reality poor folks are coming into the US looking for a better life. It's our problem because humans are humans, and I happen to care about lives.

You can donate a massive portion of your paycheck to Africa if you care about lives.

[rmt]

We don't have billions of people trying to get in. This country isn't your house. The border isn't owned by you. Like I said, we cannot treat illegal immigration like a home intruder. If someone broke into my home because they were starving to death and their kids were also, I'd feed them. Actually they only need to knock.

This is why I say the immigration system needs resources, then illegal immigration wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. There are issues all around that building a wall won't eradicate, just like building a wall around your house won't stop homeless people from dying on the street out front. If you choose to live in a neighborhood where neighbors allow people to die without offering help, that's on you. Hard to believe that's a Christian value though.

Your ancestors didn't improve their own countries. They came here. The immigration system needs work. It shouldn't be so hard to get legal status here.

Not true. You have no idea how many illegals are in the US. You only know legal immigration numbers. If the US has enough people already, why does it matter if more are legal or not? All immigrants should be do ented.

There are parts of NY where Italian is still spoken. In Chinatown Chinese is spoken. Same in many different areas. The Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc... all built this country. Even my people, the Native Americans, they came down from up North chasing food. It's what people do. Putting invisible or visible borders won't stop that. I will just create more division.

The US isn't England. Why should everyone speak English?


I am not in favor of porous borders. I am in favor of understanding why they want to be here and not blaming them for coming. Sure their country should get their act together, they won't. All we can do is what we are capable of doing.

On one hand you say we should be a great country. On the other you don't want others to want to come here. Those seem to be in direct conflict with each other.

We already have more than enough of our own Americans in need than to be welcoming more illegals. What don't you understand about every tax dollar that goes towards educating these illegal children (and they cost MUCH more to educate because they need special classes/teachers) is a dollar less to educate YOUR own American child. Teachers teach to the "lowest denomination" - meaning bringing up the lesser students - often to the detriment of teaching what they're supposed to - to the others. And we wonder why people complain about the state of US education.

[Expert]

With your leadership we'd turn this country into the type of country they are fleeing. That's what happens if you don't restrict immigration. It's not comparable to immigration in the past. The welfare state is much more expansive than in the past. Therefore, immigrants have different motivations. The journey for old immigrants used to take 12 weeks and then was reduce to a week. There was a filtering process that simply doesn't happen when illegals come from Mexico.

I am not speaking as a leader but as a citizen of this country. I wasn't aware Mexico was once a great nation until they let all the illegals in.

Maybe you didn't read my response. I am not for porous borders, but for putting more into legal immigration reform.

No, I'd prefer to educate our citizens not illegals from Mexico. Protecting our culture is also important to be a great country and infusing vast amount of people in short periods of time that don't give a about it ruins the foundation of the country.

There's nothing great about a self-serving country. If you want to wall everything off once your folks got here and call everything yours, that's not going to work out since immigration is legal. Do you think legal immigrants have more concern for this "foundation of the country" you're talking about (a nebulous concept to be sure, and the culture of Walmart and McDonalds is pretty safe I think).

Correct. We have pockets of many different types of people and then we have Mexico flooding our country for decades. That's not a pocket.

We are living in what used to be Mexico, at least many of us are.

There are an estimated 12.5 illegals in the US.

Estimated based on what exactly?

Why not? I want quality immigrants. I want people that know about the country. I want people that are going to contribute more than they take. We take in a lot of legal immigrants. Perhaps that could use a boost but it still mean the majority of the illegals don't get to come over here.

Are you against immigration or against illegal immigration? If every single illegal immigrant in the US now passed the immigration test and were deemed legal, would that change anything in your perspective?

[Expert]

We already have more than enough of our own Americans in need than to be welcoming more illegals. What don't you understand about every tax dollar that goes towards educating these illegal children (and they cost MUCH more to educate because they need special classes/teachers) is a dollar less to educate YOUR own American child. Teachers teach to the "lowest denomination" - meaning bringing up the lesser students - often to the detriment of teaching what they're supposed to - to the others. And we wonder why people complain about the state of US education.

"Our own Americans in need"

Who here does anything for these people? What is this need? Are they starving to death?

I see this phrase thrown around without context. Let's apply some. An American in need means they have to work two jobs to provide for the family because they are a single parent household. They could very well be obese. Their kids could very well be obese and they could have luxuries beyond what a 3rd world family has. Is it your goal to give these people more money? (welfare) Is it your goal to create better opportunities so that a single mom of 3 or 4 can make more money with the same skill set? (inflation)

Tell me what these needs are and how they are going to be met that somehow the immigrants are stealing away.

[Expert]

You can donate a massive portion of your paycheck to Africa if you care about lives.

Who says I don't?

If you don't, then based on your statement you don't care about lives.

[Nathan89]

There's nothing great about a self-serving country. If you want to wall everything off once your folks got here and call everything yours, that's not going to work out since immigration is legal. Do you think legal immigrants have more concern for this "foundation of the country" you're talking about (a nebulous concept to be sure, and the culture of Walmart and McDonalds is pretty safe I think).

We are living in what used to be Mexico, at least many of us are.

Estimated based on what exactly?

Are you against immigration or against illegal immigration? If every single illegal immigrant in the US now passed the immigration test and were deemed legal, would that change anything in your perspective?

The US focusing on making itself the best possible isn't self serving. The more we advance the more the world advances. If we invent a lightbulb the world take a gigantic leap forward. If we invent the internet the world takes a leap forward. If we create advanced ways to produce food the world benefits. If we have a system that produces the cures to diseases then the world benefits. On top of that the US provides a lot of aid to countries around the world.

Yeah, the fact that they go through the legal process shows a great deal of respect for the country. It says something about them as well. They are willing to do the necessary steps and wait for as long as needed to become a citizen. The quality of the legal immigrant from Mexico has to be substantially better than the illegal immigrant from Mexico imo.

It's not about the culture of McDonalds or Walmart. It is about the culture that produces great companies like those though.

I don't care if this was once part of Mexico. That literally means nothing to me. They aren't coming here for the land. If they had this land they'd still come into the land we had.

I'm against illegals but I wouldn't accept every illegal as a legal immigrant. I want them to pass the immigration test but I also want to seek higher quality. So I'd aim for those with an education.