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  1. #376
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I believe in the right to refuse service for any reason at the owner's discretion.
    Of course you do. You're stupid.

  2. #377
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Right. I redacted and went on a sidebar with you about race.
    yeah. even if we're talking about race, if you wanted to have a CRA of 1964 violation, they'd have to make the interstate commerce showing. admittedly, it's not the most difficult standard to hit, generally. commerce clause is quite broad. but for a local mom and pop shop that likely gets their ingredients locally... probably would be a challenge.

    but i dont see why you need to try to go CRA of 1964 route when colorado already has a state-specific CRA, which is what the commission used, and what SCOTUS referenced (though ultimately didn't rule on)

  3. #378
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    yeah. even if we're talking about race, if you wanted to have a CRA of 1964 violation, they'd have to make the interstate commerce showing. admittedly, it's not the most difficult standard to hit, generally. commerce clause is quite broad. but for a local mom and pop shop that likely gets their ingredients locally... probably would be a challenge.
    Oh right because mom and pop probably went next door to get their Colorado grown wheat and barley for the cake.

    but i dont see why you need to try to go CRA of 1964 route when colorado already has a state-specific CRA, which is what the commission used, and what SCOTUS referenced (though ultimately didn't rule on)
    This issue shouldn't be left up to the states. It should be included in the CRA on a federal level.

  4. #379
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Oh right because mom and pop probably went next door to get their Colorado grown wheat and barley for the cake.
    like i said, it's not the highest bar. but there's a reason they went with the CO CRA and not the federal one. there's no reason to turn this into a big deal tbh

    This issue shouldn't be left up to the states. It should be included in the CRA on a federal level.
    take it up with the cons ution, not me.

    federal reigns supreme over interstate commerce (though that is very broad), states govern intrastate commerce. you don't have to agree, that's just what it is.

  5. #380
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    wait a minute cake guy won? Good for him and sue the piss out of the s, cause they would have sued the outta him

  6. #381
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    read headlines

    dont get an understanding of what the decision was about

    make rage post

    ???

    profit

  7. #382
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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    sue the piss out of the s, cause they would have sued the outta him
    According to spurraider21 this is out of the question or irrelevant.

  8. #383
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    According to spurraider21 this is out of the question or irrelevant.
    oh, i know what you're talking about.

    the "what" was more like "what gave you the idea that such action would make any sense?"

    specifically, what part of the SCOTUS decision do you think opens up that kind of door?

  9. #384
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    spoiler alert for those who haven't looked at the decision (chris, trainwreck), the court didnt rule against the gay couple

  10. #385
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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  11. #386
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    like i said, it's not the highest bar. but there's a reason they went with the CO CRA and not the federal one. there's no reason to turn this into a big deal tbh


    take it up with the cons ution, not me.

    federal reigns supreme over interstate commerce (though that is very broad), states govern intrastate commerce. you don't have to agree, that's just what it is.
    Ah found it:

    Katzenbach v McClung

    "The Court found that discrimination in restaurants posed significant burdens on "the interstate flow of food and upon the movement on products generally." Furthermore, argued Justice Clark, discrimination also posed restrictions on blacks who traveled from state to state. Congress's solution to this problem was appropriate and within its bounds to regulate interstate commerce."

    https://www.oyez.org/cases/1964/543

    You don't have to agree with the unanimous decision of the scotus, it's just what it is

  12. #387
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    this case would have been open and shut if he sat and talked to them about what they want on the cake, and it turns out they specifically told him "we want you a custom a picture of a gay couple holding hands and kissing and have a custom writing about gay rights" etc.

    the issue here is they never got to what the cake was supposed to be. they walked in, said they want a wedding cake, and he basically just said "i dont do that for your kind"
    I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. It's not about what was on the cake. It's not about what was in the cake. All of these hypotheticals about different kinds of cake are stupid. At issue is his refusal to offer one group of people the same exact product he offers everyone else.

  13. #388
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Ah found it:

    Katzenbach v McClung

    "The Court found that discrimination in restaurants posed significant burdens on "the interstate flow of food and upon the movement on products generally." Furthermore, argued Justice Clark, discrimination also posed restrictions on blacks who traveled from state to state. Congress's solution to this problem was appropriate and within its bounds to regulate interstate commerce."

    https://www.oyez.org/cases/1964/543

    You don't have to agree with the unanimous decision of the scotus, it's just what it is
    i agree with the decision of SCOTUS there.

    they ruled that the racial discrimination itself is what burdened interstate commerce, citing extensive congressional testimony

    The record is replete with testimony of the burdens placed on interstate commerce by racial discrimination in restaurants. A comparison of per capita spending by Negroes in restaurants, theaters, and like establishments indicated less spending, after discounting income differences, in areas where discrimination is widely practiced. This condition, which was especially aggravated in the South, was attributed in the testimony of the Under Secretary of Commerce to racial segregation. [citation removed]. This diminutive spending springing from a refusal to serve Negroes and their total loss as customers has, regardless of the absence of direct evidence, a close connection to interstate commerce. The fewer customers a restaurant enjoys, the less food it sells, and consequently the less it buys. [citation]. In addition, the Attorney General testified that this type of discrimination imposed "an artificial restriction on the market," and interfered with the flow of merchandise


    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/379/294/case.html

    they didnt make some sweeping ruling that all restaurants burden interstate commerce.

    do we have similar findings here that the discrimination of gay people causes burdens to interstate commerce?

  14. #389
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. It's not about what was on the cake. It's not about what was in the cake. All of these hypotheticals about different kinds of cake are stupid. At issue is his refusal to offer one group of people the same exact product he offers everyone else.
    BUT WHAT IF THEY ASKED FOR A DILDO ON THE CAKE

  15. #390
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    I believe in the right to refuse service for any reason at the owner's discretion.

    If it’s for religious reasons you lost today’s ruling.

  16. #391
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    i agree with the decision of SCOTUS there.

    they ruled that the racial discrimination itself is what burdened interstate commerce, citing extensive congressional testimony



    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/379/294/case.html

    they didnt make some sweeping ruling that all restaurants burden interstate commerce.

    do we have similar findings here that the discrimination of gay people causes burdens to interstate commerce?
    Well if you further agree with Justice Clark, discrimination would naturally pose restrictions on gays who travel from state to state

  17. #392
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Well if you further agree with Justice Clark, discrimination would naturally pose restrictions on gays who travel from state to state
    you find the least exciting hills to die on, tbh... whether or not this cakeshop would be considered to be engaging in interstate commerce

    comparing discrimination of black people in alabama in the 1950's, which had heaps of congressional testimony discussing the effects on commerce... to this case, which has none of that.

  18. #393
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    you find the least exciting hills to die on, tbh... whether or not this cakeshop would be considered to be engaging in interstate commerce

    comparing discrimination of black people in alabama in the 1950's, which had heaps of congressional testimony discussing the effects on commerce... to this case, which has none of that.
    You really think that Ollies BBQ in Alabama had any significant effect on interstate commerce?

    It wouldn't matter much to a bakery any way. The main issue would be the potential interstate travel of the people being discriminated against.

    Lol "to die on". I don't even know what you're trying to argue against here.
    Last edited by Blake; 06-04-2018 at 09:44 PM.

  19. #394
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You really think that Ollies BBQ in Alabama had any significant effect on interstate commerce?

    What "heaps" of testimony are you referring to?
    i already linked the SCOTUS opinion quote earlier. here's more of it.

    or just read section 4

    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../294/case.html


    As we noted in Heart of Atlanta Motel, both Houses of Congress conducted prolonged hearings on the Act. And, as we said there, while no formal findings were made, which, of course, are not necessary, it is well that we make mention of the testimony at these hearings the better to understand the problem before Congress and determine whether the Act is a reasonable and appropriate means toward its solution. The record is replete with testimony of the burdens placed on interstate commerce by racial discrimination in restaurants. A comparison of per capita spending by Negroes in restaurants, theaters, and like establishments indicated less spending, after discounting income differences, in areas where discrimination is widely practiced. This condition, which was especially aggravated in the South, was attributed in the testimony of the Under Secretary of Commerce to racial segregation. See Hearings before the Senate Committee on Commerce on S. 1732, 88th Cong., 1st Sess., 695. This diminutive spending springing from a refusal to serve Negroes and their total loss as customers has, regardless of the absence of direct evidence, a close connection to interstate commerce. The fewer customers a restaurant enjoys, the less food it sells, and consequently the less it buys. S.Rep. No. 872, 88th Cong., 2d Sess., at 19; Senate Commerce Committee Hearings at 207. In addition, the Attorney General testified that this type of discrimination imposed "an artificial restriction on the market," and interfered with the flow of merchandise. Id. at 18-19; also, on this point, see testimony of Senator Magnuson, 110 Cong.Rec. 7402-7403. In addition, there were many references to discriminatory situations causing wide unrest and having a depressant effect on general business conditions in the respective communities. See, e.g., Senate Commerce Committee Hearings at 623-630, 695-700, 1384-1385.

    Moreover, there was an impressive array of testimony that discrimination in restaurants had a direct and highly restrictive effect upon interstate travel by Negroes. This resulted, it was said, because discriminatory practices prevent Negroes from buying prepared food served on the premises while on a trip, except in isolated and unkempt restaurants and under most unsatisfactory and often unpleasant conditions. This obviously discourages travel and obstructs interstate commerce, for one can hardly travel without eating. Likewise, it was said that discrimination deterred professional as well as skilled people from moving into areas where such practices occurred, and thereby caused industry to be reluctant to establish there. S.Rep. No. 872, supra, at 18-19.

    We believe that this testimony afforded ample basis for the conclusion that established restaurants in such areas sold less interstate goods because of the discrimination, that interstate travel was obstructed directly by it, that business in general suffered, and that many new businesses refrained from establishing there as a result of it. Hence, the District Court was in error in concluding that there was no connection between discrimination and the movement of interstate commerce. The court's conclusion that such a connection is outside "common experience" flies in the face of stubborn fact.
    i got tired of bolding all the parts that reference the hearing

  20. #395
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    i already linked the SCOTUS opinion quote earlier. here's more of it.

    or just read section 4

    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../294/case.html




    i got tired of bolding all the parts that reference the hearing
    Yeah I don't even know what trivial point you're trying to win here. I'm clearly right that a bakery can't discriminate against blacks because they're black.

    The CRA should also include gays but it doesn't.

    You're trying to text wall/goal post move your way to being right here. Sorry but you're not. Plenty of credible source to back that up.

  21. #396
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    He is en led to do what he wants, just like you libby s.

  22. #397
    Veteran Isitjustme?'s Avatar
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    He is en led to do what he wants, just like you libby s.
    Thats telling em

  23. #398
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    He is en led to do what he wants, just like you libby s.
    Mikey with the thoughtful goods.

  24. #399
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't even know what trivial point you're trying to win here. I'm clearly right that a bakery can't discriminate against blacks because they're black.

    The CRA should also include gays but it doesn't.

    You're trying to text wall/goal post move your way to being right here. Sorry but you're not. Plenty of credible source to back that up.
    Det white flag

    but to recap:

    you said scotus didn’t invoke cra because they had no balls

    i said cra probably wouldn’t apply because the bakery didn’t involve interstate commerce (aside from the fact that cra doesn’t cover sexual orientation)

    you thought that that notion was laughable

    i shower your cra section that says food establishments must involve interstate commerce for it to apply

    you then showed me a case that you thought proved all restaurants are automatically considered to be engaged in interstate commerce

    i showed you that the case didn’t say what you wanted it to say, and mentioned heaps of testimony supporting the notion that discriminating black people in Alabama in the 50’s affected interstate commeece

    you asked me to show the heaps of testimony

    i showed you TE heaps of testimony

    then you gave your white flag where supposedly i was arguing a stupid point
    Last edited by spurraider21; 06-04-2018 at 11:48 PM.

  25. #400
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I think the SCOTUS did right here. I didn't like there being a precedent set on a case like this, especially after hearing more about how it went down. Artists should never be forced to create works that go against their beliefs, but stores also shouldn't be able to refuse general service to people based solely on something like sexual orientation. Had the gay couple won, we might have seen governments just steamroll over this question and go even further toward removing legit nuance under the banner of protecting individual rights. But had the SCOTUS set a strong precedent in favor of the cake guy, more and more folks would use flimsy excuses to discriminate. Neither extreme gained ground, and I'm happy for that. This question needs to settle with real laws, not be up to the court to determine based on the limited parameters of a single case.
    Last edited by Chinook; 06-05-2018 at 03:53 AM.

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