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  1. #301
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    That doesn't mean, however, that picking Coney Barrett would be without some strategic side benefits. The largest of those is the fact that she was confirmed by the Senate to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in October 2017. She received 55 votes, including from Democrats Joe Manchin (West Virginia), Joe Donnelly (Indiana) and Tim Kaine (Virginia) as well as several moderate Republicans like S ey Moore Capito (West Virginia), Susan Collins (Maine) and Lisa Murkowski (Alaska).https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/polit...ump/index.html

  2. #302
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    We were going to get into implantation in the uterine lining. It was coming.
    The discussion stopped well short of that.
    I try to tell people what they are stepping into before we get into it.

    You did need science to get into the viability argument. In fact, because we have such a demand from peeps that can afford it, we have figured out all sorts of ways to muddy the viability issue with frozen embryos etc... viability in vitro... And much more to really confuse.

    Your point is well taken though and leads to a very simple perfunctory test of real interest in the subject:

    Most in this thread think the taking of a human life is wrong. Once one has decided what a human life is, and we all have our definitions... then I can understand the passion involved. So it comes down to this simple first step for me in testing one’s passion and will:

    Will one be willing to demand personally that a pregnant woman take a “child” to term, and then adopt the child? No? You will just give the government the power to attempt to force a woman to take a possible human life to term,and then...who knows after that?

    Just hide behind a law with all its known ramifications of crossing state borders to get abortions, etc...

    Then this person is NOT serious about the whole subject. I personally know too many couples who have adopted and still are not sure about the law. They step to the plate. Yet You get males pontificating on how wrong it is... they are not serious. Let the government take care of it... I immediately call BS.

    BTW... the DNA= human issue continues long after the womb. If one asks why we consider ourselves so special “human” contemplation of one’s own existence, empathy, etc... then many people on this board still are not fully human. And never will be.
    What's actually pretty ironic about the disregard/mockery of science ITT is that science is the one that will eventually be responsible for ultimately solving the challenges that will lead to the technology that does away with this issue entirely. I think we're all in agreement that if there would be a way to transplant the fetus without damage to another host, with minimal/no risk to the original host and the state would pay for it (it's their interest after all), this would no longer be an issue?

  3. #303
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    What's actually pretty ironic about the disregard/mockery of science ITT is that science is the one that will eventually be responsible for ultimately solving the challenges that will lead to the technology that does away with this issue entirely. I think we're all in agreement that if there would be a way to transplant the fetus without damage to another host, with minimal/no risk to the original host and the state would pay for it (it's their interest after all), this would no longer be an issue?
    Yep.
    I think so.

  4. #304
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    What Mr King SnakeBoy is missing and apparently nobody pointed out yet, is that, even if we were to argue that science finds out tomorrow that life starts when that sperm hits the egg, such form of life is entirely parasitical, up until a certain point where it can be extracted and can live on it's own.

    That means, that 'life' needs a 'host' for a certain period of time, and it just so happens that the 'host' has as many cons utional rights as this alleged 'life'.

    This is about the point where the moral police alarms start sounding, and we get the erroneous 'but the right to life should trump any other right'. Wrong.

    Now that we got that out of the way, and the fact that science has do ented pretty well the physical and emotional rollercoaster of pregnancy, we have then established the two competing rights: The privacy right of the host not to have to go through the hosting process, and the 'state interest in life' (which in a way is hilarious, because what would be the state interest outside of the religious/moral motive? The only justification left is 'another taxpayer!', hahaha... erm).

    So we don't even need science to get to the 'viability' argument, and the competing interests, etc, etc etc.

    The science angle is also interesting, but much more arguable, because science has this third state outside of true or false: we don't know. It's a perfectly reasonable state, but it's a state where you're encouraged to throw all sorts of theories at it and then required to prove them.

    So we can argue that DNA = human, or we can argue that DNA is a map of how to build what ultimately will become a human (through the aforementioned hosting process). But unless you can test it and can reproduce the results (prove it, basically), it really has no scientific value, and it's just conjecture.
    What you have apparently missed is that I said it doesn't matter because the question of when life begins isn't what the abortion issue is about. Odd that you missed that and then go on to make the same case.

    Is there any point of a pregnancy that you believe the parasite has a right to life (unalienable rights)?

  5. #305
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    What you have apparently missed is that I said it doesn't matter because the question of when life begins isn't what the abortion issue is about. Odd that you missed that and then go on to make the same case.

    Is there any point of a pregnancy that you believe the parasite has a right to life (unalienable rights)?
    You were discussing the merits of science determining when life starts, that's why I brought it up.

    As far as your question, as I already explained, 'when' doesn't really matter. Even if we were to argue that at *any* given point through pregnancy the parasite has a right to life, the mother also has a right to her body and what she does with it, which is also a cons utionally protected right. There's no one right better than the other. When you encounter competing rights, the judiciary normally has to strike a balance.

    This is where the whole 'viability' construction comes from. It's a Solomonic solution that basically establishes the right of the mother will last until the parasite could conceivably stop being one and if brought out it could conceivably live by it's own means (even if machine-assisted).

    Generally speaking, I understand that it's difficult to talk about this subject without entering into either the emotional or tribal realms (ie: human life > any other organic life).

    Personally, I'm not against the King of USA 3 month workaround, but the real solution will come from being able to just move the fetus unharmed into a willing host or a device that can complete the process, IMO.

  6. #306
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    You were discussing the merits of science determining when life starts, that's why I brought it up.
    The intent was just to point out that only extreme Pro Lifers have a concrete thing to point to in regards to abortion the rest of us are picking arbitrary points in time where we are deciding it's is ok or wrong to terminate the life of the child. Along with the point that most pro choice people feel the need to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify their view. It isn't necessary but I understand why they do it.

  7. #307
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The intent was just to point out that only extreme Pro Lifers have a concrete thing to point to in regards to abortion the rest of us are picking arbitrary points in time where we are deciding it's is ok or wrong to terminate the life of the child. Along with the point that most pro choice people feel the need to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify their view. It isn't necessary but I understand why they do it.
    fair enough

  8. #308
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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  9. #309
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    You were discussing the merits of science determining when life starts, that's why I brought it up.

    As far as your question, as I already explained, 'when' doesn't really matter. Even if we were to argue that at *any* given point through pregnancy the parasite has a right to life, the mother also has a right to her body and what she does with it, which is also a cons utionally protected right. There's no one right better than the other. When you encounter competing rights, the judiciary normally has to strike a balance.

    This is where the whole 'viability' construction comes from. It's a Solomonic solution that basically establishes the right of the mother will last until the parasite could conceivably stop being one and if brought out it could conceivably live by it's own means (even if machine-assisted).

    Generally speaking, I understand that it's difficult to talk about this subject without entering into either the emotional or tribal realms (ie: human life > any other organic life).

    Personally, I'm not against the King of USA 3 month workaround, but the real solution will come from being able to just move the fetus unharmed into a willing host or a device that can complete the process, IMO.
    The bolded is why I started with discussion of life v. human life.
    Your bolded is much better. I hesitate to start with a broad statement and go right into details. Your way is probably much more efficient. I make the mistake of thinking people who are so adamant about a subject have actually thought deeply about it.

  10. #310
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    The intent was just to point out that only extreme Pro Lifers have a concrete thing to point to in regards to abortion the rest of us are picking arbitrary points in time where we are deciding it's is ok or wrong to terminate the life of the child. Along with the point that most pro choice people feel the need to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify their view. It isn't necessary but I understand why they do it.
    For me I feel the passion. It’s obvious why abortion is such an incredibly difficult heartfelt subject. Because I rationalize,like everyone else to extricate oneself from very difficult moral topics, I fall back on “step to the plate.”

    Adopt, and I will be “shamed” as I have not stepped up.

    When you talk to someone who has lived a very fulfilling life and has found out they were to be aborted.... and their mom cries and hugs them every time a glass of wine releases emotional inhibitions... That’s raw.

  11. #311
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Switzerland has one of the lowest abortion rates at 5 per 1000 women 2016.

    This is touted as being an ideal western situation where free birth control etc.. has played a significant role. The child birth rate in Switzerland is 10 in 1000 women. So both numbers are low as one might expect. But this also means with birth control, 33% of pregnancies are terminated aborted. (Approximate due to other factors)

    This “seems” excessive. You will not read the stats seen side by side in most pro choice articles. We need to get thorough discussion. It’s not happening. As usual we get a “side” leaving out a significant stat. Like they are arguing before a Judge defending a client no matter. This is not what a democracy needs. This board is full of this pull-a-stat. And if you don’t like the aforementioned math or data, give me the straight dope. This is not a courtroom. (This place actually mimics the so called visual talking head MSM, FOX & CNN)

    With, Put up a random Twitter. Which sucks. But can be humorous.

  12. #312
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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  13. #313
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    And here we go.... rely on Twitter when you got nothing.


    Do these lives lost count miscarriages? abortions(lives lost)
    The unique DNA was most certainly known. WRONG. Not known through DNA sequencing, but very well known.

    Old Charlie Kirk... FACT...
    Last edited by pgardn; 07-07-2018 at 08:14 PM.

  14. #314
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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    And here we go.... rely on Twitter when you got nothing.


    Do these lives lost count miscarriages? abortions(lives lost)
    The unique DNA was most certainly known. WRONG. Not known through DNA sequencing, but very well known.

    Old Charlie Kirk... FACT...
    Those are all facts jack. Sorry if they got you upset tbh

  15. #315
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Those are all facts jack. Sorry if they got you upset tbh
    Im not upset.

    Its just flat wrong.
    Sorry.
    Change who you follow.

  16. #316
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    On eve of Trump's Supreme Court pick, top Dem suggests sacrificing Senate seats to stop nomination

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...omination.html

  17. #317
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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    Im not upset.

    Its just flat wrong.
    Sorry.
    Change who you follow.
    Nah, you're still wrong.

  18. #318
    non-essential Chris's Avatar
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  19. #319
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    That doesn't mean, however, that picking Coney Barrett would be without some strategic side benefits. The largest of those is the fact that she was confirmed by the Senate to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in October 2017. She received 55 votes, including from Democrats Joe Manchin (West Virginia), Joe Donnelly (Indiana) and Tim Kaine (Virginia) as well as several moderate Republicans like S ey Moore Capito (West Virginia), Susan Collins (Maine) and Lisa Murkowski (Alaska).https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/polit...ump/index.html

  20. #320
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    NYT: A Liberal Law Professor Makes Case for Kavanaugh

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/0...urt-trump.html

  21. #321
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    Trump picks the best justices

  22. #322
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    Abortion criminalized

    EPA, DoEd, DoLabor, HUD, destroyed

    another ing Catholic ideologue extremist

  23. #323
    ex Hornets78 Pelicans78's Avatar
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    Hillary really screwed her party over.

  24. #324
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    ABC's Nightline Blasts 'Controversial' Nominee Before He’s Even Announced!

  25. #325
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    Former president picked a cathlotic

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