Brandon Jennings: Manu is a Top 5 Shooting Guard of All-Time

[Killakobe81]

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.

Not a huge wade fan and if you asked me who would I prefer on MY team Iam taking Manu ...
But if you asked me who is greater I would argue Wade.
I also probably put drexler over gino but that is closer.
I never saw west.

1. Jordan >>> 2. Kobe >> 3. Wade > 4. Miller> 5. Drexler
I dont know Manu, Reggie, Ray, Dumars, Vince Iverson all have cases for that 5th spot. I debated back and forth but ultimately chose Miller and drexler to round out the top 5.
I consider McGrady a SF and Harden obviously will be making a case if he keeps putting up MVP level seasons.

Just curious outside the abilty to drive like Manu couldnt many make the same case/argument for Klay thompson? Klay has had moments in big games where he has carried the warriors, defends the toughest PG/SG and has sacrificed touches for the greater good?

[daslicer]

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.

Now you are lying out of your teeth. The US only played Argentina once in the summer of '03 and they blew them out by 33 like you said but they didn't play them twice. Also Lebron,Wade Melo were very young and inexperience in '04. You are acting like they were in their primes back then. It's like some random fan saying rookie Parker was at an all-star level in '02 which we know is bs. Also you conveniently left out Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'neal, Elton Brand, Mike Bibby who were replaced a year later by Shawn Marion, Emeka Oakfor, Carlos Boozer, Marbury. Their replacements were all downgrades.

Argentina beat the worst team USA squads in '02 and '04. They basically beat the JV team. Colangelo and company got smarter after '04 and assembled a much better roster which made Argentina irrelevant.

Manu is very overrated by the Manu s like you in here. I like him and respect his achievements with the Spurs but he's not as great as you make him out to be. If he was great then the Spurs would have easily won back to back les with him which they could never do since he wasn't a legit superstar. Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.

[Phenomanul]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

People are going to glaze over this because it doesn't suit their narrative. During his first ten years in the league Manu was Mr. Efficient - doing the most with his time on the court.

[StinkyWeezleteats]

Pretty sure he was the first to bring the euro step to the NBA though I am probably wrong about that.

I'm pretty sure he is too. That Euro step on Shaq game 6 in the 03 semis that left Shaq just standing flat-footed comes to mind. Not sure I saw it before the 02-03 season.

[diego]

Now you are lying out of your teeth. The US only played Argentina once in the summer of '03 and they blew them out by 33 like you said but they didn't play them twice. Also Lebron,Wade Melo were very young and inexperience in '04. You are acting like they were in their primes back then. It's like some random fan saying rookie Parker was at an all-star level in '02 which we know is bs. Also you conveniently left out Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'neal, Elton Brand, Mike Bibby who were replaced a year later by Shawn Marion, Emeka Oakfor, Carlos Boozer, Marbury. Their replacements were all downgrades.

Argentina beat the worst team USA squads in '02 and '04. They basically beat the JV team. Colangelo and company got smarter after '04 and assembled a much better roster which made Argentina irrelevant.

Manu is very overrated by the Manu s like you in here. I like him and respect his achievements with the Spurs but he's not as great as you make him out to be. If he was great then the Spurs would have easily won back to back les with him which they could never do since he wasn't a legit superstar. Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.

lying out of my teeth??

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa...statistic.html

that was the 8pt loss in the same tournament you didnt watch

rosters in 02, 03 and 04:

F 4 Finley, Michael 29 – 6 March 1973 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Dallas Mavericks United States
G 5 Davis, Baron 23 – 13 April 1979 1.91 m (6 ft 3 in) New Orleans Hornets United States
G 6 Miller, Andre 26 – 19 March 1976 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 23 – 13 October 1978 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 8 Davis, Antonio 33 – 31 October 1968 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Toronto Raptors United States
F 9 Pierce, Paul 24 – 13 October 1977 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Boston Celtics United States
G 10 Miller, Reggie 36 – 24 August 1965 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 24 – 7 May 1978 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
G 12 Williams, Jay 20 – 10 September 1981 1.89 m (6 ft 2 in) Chicago Bulls United States
C 13 Wallace, Ben 27 – 10 September 1974 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Detroit Pistons United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 23 – 11 March 1979 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 15 LaFrentz, Raef 26 – 29 May 1976 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Denver Nuggets


United States national basketball team roster
Players Coaches
Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club
G 4 Iverson, Allen 28 – 7 June 1975 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Kidd, Jason 30 – 23 March 1973 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G/F 6 McGrady, Tracy 24 – 24 May 1979 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) Orlando Magic United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 24 – 13 October 1978 6 ft 11 in (2.11 m) Indiana Pacers United States
G 8 Carter, Vince 26 – 26 January 1977 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m) Toronto Raptors Canada
F 9 Collison, Nick 22 – 26 October 1980 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
G 10 Bibby, Mike 25 – 13 May 1978 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m) Sacramento Kings United States
F 11 Martin, Kenyon 25 – 30 December 1977 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G 12 Allen, Ray 28 – 20 July 1975 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim 27 – 25 April 1976 7 ft 0 in (2.13 m) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 24 – 11 March 1979 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) Los Angeles Clippers United States
F 15 Jefferson, Richard 23 – 21 June 1980 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) New Jersey Nets United States

G 4 Iverson, Allen 29 – 7 June 1975 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Marbury, Stephon 27 – 20 February 1977 1.87 m (6 ft 2 in) New York Knicks United States
G 6 Wade, Dwyane 22 – 17 January 1982 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Miami Heat United States
F 7 Boozer, Carlos 22 – 20 November 1981 2.05 m (6 ft 9 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
F 8 Anthony, Carmelo 20 – 29 May 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Denver Nuggets United States
F 9 James, LeBron 19 – 30 December 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
C 10 Okafor, Emeka 21 – 28 September 1982 2.07 m (6 ft 9 in) Charlotte Bobcats United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 26 – 7 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
C 12 Stoudemire, Amar'e 21 – 16 November 1982 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Phoenix Suns United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim (C) 28 – 25 April 1976 2.1 m (6 ft 11 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Odom, Lamar 24 – 6 November 1979 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Miami Heat United States
G 15 Jefferson, Richard 24 – 21 June 1980 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) New Jersey Nets United States

Argentina:


Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club Ctr.
PG 4 Juan Ignacio Sanchez 25 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Panathinaikos Greece
SG 5 Manu Ginóbili 25 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Kinder Bologna Italy
PG 6 Alejandro Montecchia 30 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Viola Reggio Italy
C 7 Fabricio Oberto 27 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SG 8 Lucas Victoriano 24 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Caprabo Lleida Spain
C 9 Gabriel Fernandez 25 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 10 Hugo Sconochini 31 – 10 April 1971 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 11 Luis Scola 22 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 12 Leonardo Gutierrez 24 – 16 May 1978 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Atenas Argentina
SF 13 Andrés Nocioni 23 – 30 January 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 14 Leandro Palladino 26 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) Napoli Italy
C 15 Ruben Wolkowyski 28 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) CSKA Moscow Russia

G 4 Sánchez, Pepe 26 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Detroit Pistons United States
G 5 Ginóbili, Manu 26 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 31 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 25 – 5 November 1977 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 8 Victoriano, Lucas 25 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Real Madrid Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 26 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Forum Valladolid Spain
F 10 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 25 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Drac Inca Mallorca Spain
C 11 Scola, Luis 23 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 12 Kammerichs, Federico 23 – 21 June 1980 2.02 m (6 ft 8 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
F 13 Nocioni, Andrés 23 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 14 Palladino, Leandro 27 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 29 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) TAU Cerámica Spain

PG 4 Sánchez, Juan Ignacio 27 – 8 April 1977 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Etosa Alicante Spain
SG 5 Ginóbili, Emanuel 27 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
PG 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 32 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 29 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
SF 8 Herrmann, Walter 25 – 26 June 1979 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Unicaja Málaga Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 27 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Fórum Valladolid Spain
SG 10 Sconochini, Hugo 33 – 10 April 1971 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Olimpia Milano Italy
PF 11 Scola, Luis 24 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
PF 12 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 26 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Obras Sanitarias Argentina
SF 13 Nocioni, Andrés 24 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
SF 14 Delfino, Carlos 21 – 29 August 1982 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Skipper Bologna Italy
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 30 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Olympiacos B.C. Greece
Head coach
Argentina Rubén Magnano

I love how a guy like brand goes from being trash in 02 to indispensable in 04! mike bibby was the missing piece! ROFL. both teams had players missing, one had NBA mvps all stars and all nba players, the other had manu, several good players like oberto, nocioni, scola, and some guys from the argentina domestic league.

oh, and i specifically referred to wade and lebron as young and their counterparts as in-their-prime. are you going to acknowledge that argentina also had players missing? I suppose spurs 2014 ring doesnt count because ibaka, 07 because amare and diaw, 05 because joe johnson, 03 because dirk, 99 because ewing, or do you only discredit your rivals wins???

[Killakobe81]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

The 2004 Pistons >>> 2005 Pistons.
Repeating is not easy to do (as spur fan should be well aware). Motivation is lower and wear and tear of two long finals runs reodes teams.

That would be someone using what Mavs did to spurs in 2006 and comparing that to the spurs of 2005.

OR a WADE fan could argue ... "Well, agianst the same mavs team that BEAT Manu and the Spurs in the playofs dwayne wade put up the best numbers in a finals since Jordan!!!"

Both are a silly argument and doesnt make any sense.
Yall love Manu and I love james worthy, I get it. Doesnt make either player top 5 at their positions.
They are both great HOF'ers but neither is top 5.
Just stop it.
Manu is top 10, easily out of SGs I saw. I would take him over Dumars, ray and a few others in top 10 consideration.
Top 5 he is borderline, top 3 is laughable. I think 6-10 is pretty fair.

[Killakobe81]

People are going to glaze over this because it doesn't suit their narrative. During his first ten years in the league Manu was Mr. Efficient - doing the most with his time on the court.

Still doesnt make him top 5.
Klay is awfully efficient and plays pretty damn good defense.
doesnt make him a top 5 SG either ...

[daslicer]

lying out of my teeth??

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa...statistic.html

that was the 8pt loss in the same tournament you didnt watch

rosters in 02, 03 and 04:

F 4 Finley, Michael 29 – 6 March 1973 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Dallas Mavericks United States
G 5 Davis, Baron 23 – 13 April 1979 1.91 m (6 ft 3 in) New Orleans Hornets United States
G 6 Miller, Andre 26 – 19 March 1976 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 23 – 13 October 1978 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 8 Davis, Antonio 33 – 31 October 1968 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Toronto Raptors United States
F 9 Pierce, Paul 24 – 13 October 1977 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Boston Celtics United States
G 10 Miller, Reggie 36 – 24 August 1965 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 24 – 7 May 1978 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
G 12 Williams, Jay 20 – 10 September 1981 1.89 m (6 ft 2 in) Chicago Bulls United States
C 13 Wallace, Ben 27 – 10 September 1974 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Detroit Pistons United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 23 – 11 March 1979 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 15 LaFrentz, Raef 26 – 29 May 1976 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Denver Nuggets


United States national basketball team roster
Players Coaches
Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club
G 4 Iverson, Allen 28 – 7 June 1975 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Kidd, Jason 30 – 23 March 1973 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G/F 6 McGrady, Tracy 24 – 24 May 1979 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) Orlando Magic United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 24 – 13 October 1978 6 ft 11 in (2.11 m) Indiana Pacers United States
G 8 Carter, Vince 26 – 26 January 1977 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m) Toronto Raptors Canada
F 9 Collison, Nick 22 – 26 October 1980 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
G 10 Bibby, Mike 25 – 13 May 1978 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m) Sacramento Kings United States
F 11 Martin, Kenyon 25 – 30 December 1977 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G 12 Allen, Ray 28 – 20 July 1975 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim 27 – 25 April 1976 7 ft 0 in (2.13 m) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 24 – 11 March 1979 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) Los Angeles Clippers United States
F 15 Jefferson, Richard 23 – 21 June 1980 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) New Jersey Nets United States

G 4 Iverson, Allen 29 – 7 June 1975 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Marbury, Stephon 27 – 20 February 1977 1.87 m (6 ft 2 in) New York Knicks United States
G 6 Wade, Dwyane 22 – 17 January 1982 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Miami Heat United States
F 7 Boozer, Carlos 22 – 20 November 1981 2.05 m (6 ft 9 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
F 8 Anthony, Carmelo 20 – 29 May 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Denver Nuggets United States
F 9 James, LeBron 19 – 30 December 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
C 10 Okafor, Emeka 21 – 28 September 1982 2.07 m (6 ft 9 in) Charlotte Bobcats United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 26 – 7 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
C 12 Stoudemire, Amar'e 21 – 16 November 1982 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Phoenix Suns United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim (C) 28 – 25 April 1976 2.1 m (6 ft 11 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Odom, Lamar 24 – 6 November 1979 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Miami Heat United States
G 15 Jefferson, Richard 24 – 21 June 1980 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) New Jersey Nets United States

Argentina:


Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club Ctr.
PG 4 Juan Ignacio Sanchez 25 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Panathinaikos Greece
SG 5 Manu Ginóbili 25 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Kinder Bologna Italy
PG 6 Alejandro Montecchia 30 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Viola Reggio Italy
C 7 Fabricio Oberto 27 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SG 8 Lucas Victoriano 24 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Caprabo Lleida Spain
C 9 Gabriel Fernandez 25 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 10 Hugo Sconochini 31 – 10 April 1971 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 11 Luis Scola 22 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 12 Leonardo Gutierrez 24 – 16 May 1978 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Atenas Argentina
SF 13 Andrés Nocioni 23 – 30 January 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 14 Leandro Palladino 26 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) Napoli Italy
C 15 Ruben Wolkowyski 28 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) CSKA Moscow Russia

G 4 Sánchez, Pepe 26 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Detroit Pistons United States
G 5 Ginóbili, Manu 26 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 31 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 25 – 5 November 1977 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 8 Victoriano, Lucas 25 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Real Madrid Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 26 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Forum Valladolid Spain
F 10 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 25 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Drac Inca Mallorca Spain
C 11 Scola, Luis 23 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 12 Kammerichs, Federico 23 – 21 June 1980 2.02 m (6 ft 8 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
F 13 Nocioni, Andrés 23 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 14 Palladino, Leandro 27 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 29 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) TAU Cerámica Spain

PG 4 Sánchez, Juan Ignacio 27 – 8 April 1977 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Etosa Alicante Spain
SG 5 Ginóbili, Emanuel 27 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
PG 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 32 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 29 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
SF 8 Herrmann, Walter 25 – 26 June 1979 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Unicaja Málaga Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 27 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Fórum Valladolid Spain
SG 10 Sconochini, Hugo 33 – 10 April 1971 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Olimpia Milano Italy
PF 11 Scola, Luis 24 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
PF 12 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 26 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Obras Sanitarias Argentina
SF 13 Nocioni, Andrés 24 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
SF 14 Delfino, Carlos 21 – 29 August 1982 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Skipper Bologna Italy
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 30 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Olympiacos B.C. Greece
Head coach
Argentina Rubén Magnano

I love how a guy like brand goes from being trash in 02 to indispensable in 04! mike bibby was the missing piece! ROFL. both teams had players missing, one had NBA mvps all stars and all nba players, the other had manu, several good players like oberto, nocioni, scola, and some guys from the argentina domestic league.

oh, and i specifically referred to wade and lebron as young and their counterparts as in-their-prime. are you going to acknowledge that argentina also had players missing? I suppose spurs 2014 ring doesnt count because ibaka, 07 because amare and diaw, 05 because joe johnson, 03 because dirk, 99 because ewing, or do you only discredit your rivals wins???

Honestly dude I don't give a . Manu is your god and he comes from your third world hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

[daslicer]

The 2004 Pistons >>> 2005 Pistons.
Repeating is not easy to do (as spur fan shoudl be well aware). Motivation is lower and wear and tear of two long finals runs wears on teams.

That would be someone using what Mavs did to spurs in 2006 and comparing that to the spurs of 2005.

OR a WADE fan could argue ... "Well, agianst the same mavs team that BEAT Manu and the Spurs in the playofs dwayne wade put up the best numbers in a finals since Jordan!!!"

Both are a silly argument and doesnt make any sense.
Yall love Manu and I love james worthy, I get it. Doesnt make either player top 5 at their positions.
they are great HOF'ers but neither is top 5.
Just stop it.
Manu is top 10, easily out of SGs I saw. I wouls take him over dumars, ray and a few others in top 10 consideration.
Top 5 he is borderline, top 3 is laughable.

I would not say Manu is even close to being top 5. I'd take Jordan,Kobe,Wade,Drexler,Harden,Tmac over him. Those guys in their primes were above and beyond better than Manu.

[diego]

Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.

and at this, Tmac is just as if not MORE injury prone than manu, Tmac came to the spurs and played with duncan and couldnt even get off the bench for garbage time. between age 25-32 (supposed prime years), tmac played 451 games 31.7 mpg + 26 playoffs 35.3mpg- 15,214 minutes total; manu 553 27.8mpg + 117 31.2mpg (19,023 minutes total). damn near 30% more minutes played in favor of manu... who is two years older and still playing...

[diego]

Honestly dude I don't give a . Manu is your god and he comes from your third world hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

what a bitter got, no one will remember the 08, 12, 16 teams, everyone including your "i dont give a " got ass will remember the 04 team with two nba mvps on it losing to Argentina. have a nice day!

[cd98]

Honestly dude I don't give a . Manu is your god and he comes from your third world hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

No reason to hate on Argentina just because a couple of fans worship at the feet of Manu. Argentina had a great run, but they had one generation of good players and now they are back to the bottom of the barrel against international compe ion. But give that team their due. Sure, they didn't beat the best team that USA could have put on the floor, but they beat a good, if flawed one. Simple as that.

It's true that Argentines overrate Manu. But we overrate players too. MJ was never as good as we made him out to be, even if he is the best player ever. I mean, really he was the best player of his generation, but we all treat MJ like a god because he won six les in an era of expansion teams and watered down talent. That doesn't mean MJ isn't great, but who's to say the results wouldn't have been as good or better if you took out MJ and replaced him with Lebron?

For the record, Manu is clearly in the top 10 shooting guards, but top 5 is shaky and definitely not in the top 3. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great player and fun to watch. Sometimes the Argentine folks see Manu do those passes through the legs, etc. and it's true that he may be the only player that could do stuff like that and that made him unique. But that didn't necessarily make him a better player maker than Allen just because Allen created with less flare.

Still I'm glad Manu was a Spur and I'll enjoy watching him for one more year before he hangs up his jersey and calls it a career. Hope he has a few more magical moments this year before he moves on.

[daslicer]

what a bitter got, no one will remember the 08, 12, 16 teams, everyone including your "i dont give a " got ass will remember the 04 team with two nba mvps on it losing to Argentina. have a nice day!

Nobody in the States gives a about what Manu did in '04. Sorry to say that '04 team only lives on in your third world hole country. '08 and '12 will always be remembered due to Lebron and Kobe playing on those teams. Their fans bases globally tend to be more than the Manu fan base.

[D Emily D]

Iverson over Clyde Drexler and Jerry West?

No way.

[Killakobe81]

I would not say Manu is even close to being top 5. I'd take Jordan,Kobe,Wade,Drexler,Harden,Tmac over him. Those guys in their primes were above and beyond better than Manu.

Can't argue that, he is somewhere between 6-10.

[daslicer]

and at this, Tmac is just as if not MORE injury prone than manu, Tmac came to the spurs and played with duncan and couldnt even get off the bench for garbage time. between age 25-32 (supposed prime years), tmac played 451 games 31.7 mpg + 26 playoffs 35.3mpg- 15,214 minutes total; manu 553 27.8mpg + 117 31.2mpg (19,023 minutes total). damn near 30% more minutes played in favor of manu... who is two years older and still playing...

Tmac during his prime years had seasons where he played 40 minutes a night while Manu only had 2 seasons where he played 30 or more minutes. Of course Tmac's career ended earlier than Manu's simply because Tmac was carrying a bigger load than Manu since he was the number 1 guy on his team. Put Tmac with Duncan and his career is extended by several years and the Spurs win more les. Also Tracy took a lot more physical abuse than Manu did which accelerated the age and decline of his body. Keep in mind Tmac's prime started in '00 and the league didn't start to change the rules to favor perimeter players until '05. I saw plenty of games where Tmac got knocked out him and dealt with dirty flagrant fouls on the regular which lead to him having back problems. Manu proving like always to be pretty stupid.

[Phenomanul]

Still doesnt make him top 5.
Klay is awfully efficient and plays pretty damn good defense.
doesnt make him a top 5 SG either ...

Your counterpoint was basically showing an analogy of Spurs '06 with Wade...? That's comparable as a paper assessment but nothing more. Manu's numbers versus the Mavs in '06 were stellar and still very efficient (unlike Kobe's against the Pistons in '04). The Spurs just took one up the bum when in came to officiating in that series. Spurs would've whooped the Heat that year if the officials had blown the whistle and made the right call (Dampier irrefutably fouled Timmy during his OT game winning field goal attempt). Regardless, the Mavs got the short end of the stick against the Heat when it came to the zebras (poetic justice) - unless Wade's 16.2 FTA per game were truly "justified" throughout that series (it wasn't). Wade averaged 9 FTA per game during the previous three playoff series that year (against Chicago, the New Jersey Nets, and the Detroit Pistons [a value which falls in line with his free throw rate during his first 7 years in the league]) but then managed to get a whopping 79% more free throws against the Mavs. The bias in the Heat's favor was so blatantly outrageous it's rather comical.

The 2006 playoffs, along with the 2002 playoffs (Kings vs. Lakers) and the 2012 playoffs offer cir stantial evidence of 'tampering' via statistical irregularities and anomalies that are simply too glaring to ignore - these show just how much David Stern was willing to taint the integrity of the NBA product. Of course you won't admit it, because the Lakers were mostly beneficiaries of Stern ball during his tenure as Commissioner.

[Killakobe81]

Your counterpoint was basically showing an analogy of Spurs '06 with Wade...? That's comparable as a paper assessment but nothing more. Manu's numbers versus the Mavs in '06 were stellar and still very efficient (unlike Kobe's against the Pistons in '04). The Spurs just took one up the bum when in came to officiating in that series. Spurs would've whooped the Heat that year if the officials had blown the whistle and made the right call (Dampier irrefutably fouled Timmy during his OT game winning field goal attempt). Regardless, the Mavs got the short end of the stick against the Heat when it came to the zebras (poetic justice) - unless Wade's 16.2 FTA per game were truly "justified" throughout that series (it wasn't). Wade averaged 9 FTA per game during the previous three playoff series that year (against Chicago, the New Jersey Nets, and the Detroit Pistons [a value which falls in line with his free throw rate during his first 7 years in the league]) but then managed to get a whopping 79% more free throws against the Mavs. The bias in the Heat's favor was so blatantly outrageous it's rather comical.

The 2006 playoffs, along with the 2002 playoffs (Kings vs. Lakers) and the 2012 playoffs offer cir stantial evidence of 'tampering' via statistical irregularities and anomalies that are simply too glaring to ignore - these show just how much David Stern was willing to taint the integrity of the NBA product. Of course you won't admit it, because the Lakers were mostly beneficiaries of Stern ball during his tenure as Commissioner.

Carrying a comparison of one man's play the previous year versus that same le team a year later (especially for a team defending a le) is a wasted exercise and a silly example. I am staying away from Kobe because there is potential bias (me for and you against). Great Manu was efficient so was Klay. however still wont push Manu over guys like reggie miller that had to carry a franchise. if it were closer Manu's intagibles would give him the edge (like over Klay) but it's not.
Wade despite some shaky calls still put up better numbers vs the mavs from the SAME year.
Crying about offciating/league meddling is awfully convienient.
So stern Suspending Amare for taking a half a step on the court did not help the Spurs?
Are the Spurs the only team that wins DESPITE officiating?!
So 5 times despite the integrity of the league being tainted by the Mob and or stern deemed a small market team like the spurs, were not worth conspiring against even though the Spurs produced some of the lowest viewed Finals of the last 25 years?!!! GTFOH

Please go somewhere else with ref excuse making. No way you win 5 les if the bias/conspiracy was real.
You also believe in a flat earth or the fake moon landing too?

[SpursDynasty85]

Iverson at his very peak was pound for pound the most athletic freak the league saw. Crazy stamina and hopped around like a grasshopper. Klay is underrated as well. Klay always kills the Spurs and dude scored 39 points in one quarter. Clutchtime Manu is as good as anyone minus Kobe and Jordan at their peaks too. But Manu only played that way around 28-30 mpg at most and half of that against bench players. It's different if he carries whole franchises for seasons at a time but he didn't. Again 04 Argentina was amazing and fortunate at the same time. Manu should get a lot of credit but that was a TEAM win not a pure Manu dominated win. Manu should be considered top 10 for sure. Pushing it with the top 5 but definitely shouldn't argue it is definitive over players like, Clyde, Iverson, Allen, Miller, .. would take Manu over Vince though. Tmac is a SF I think. Also hard to gauge older players like earl the pearl, Jerry west,and Sam Jones.. Chris Mullin was pretty darn good too but yes I'll take Manu over him too. Klay, Manu, and Harden for now hover around the 7-10 mark. Edit: Gotta Add George Gervin to the mix. Those stats for the late 70's and 80's are very impressive.

[itsamanuthree]

Honestly dude I don't give a . Manu is your god and he comes from your third world hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

And how can a guy from a " ty" third world country be a top 3 sg, right? Preposterous!

Lol at your meltdown, clown, now we can all understand where you coming from (hate!!!) and why you are are whining in this thread (your butt hurts)

Eat and die mother er

[daslicer]

And how can a guy from a " ty" third world country be a top 3 sg, right? Preposterous!

Lol at your meltdown, clown, now we can all understand where you coming from (hate!!!) and why you are are whining in this thread (your butt hurts)

Eat and die mother er

another triggered Manu . Manu only in your mind would Manu be a top 3 SG. Go to reddit or any other NBA forum and see how many people are that delusional to believe Manu is a top 3 SG.

[Phenomanul]

Carrying a comparison of one man's play the previous year versus that same le team a year later (especially for a team defending a le) is a wasted exercise and a silly example. I am staying away from Kobe because there is potential bias (me for and you against). Great Manu was efficient so was Klay. however still wont push Manu over guys like reggie miller that had to carry a franchise. if it were closer Manu's intagibles would give him the edge (like over Klay) but it's not.
Wade despite some shaky calls still put up better numbers vs the mavs from the SAME year.
Crying about offciating/league meddling is awfully convienient.
So stern Suspending Amare for taking a half a step on the court did not help the Spurs?
Are the Spurs the only team that wins DESPITE officiating?!
So 5 times despite the integrity of the league being tainted by the Mob and or stern deemed a small market team like the spurs, were not worth conspiring against even though the Spurs produced some of the lowest viewed Finals of the last 25 years?!!! GTFOH

Please go somewhere else with ref excuse making. No way you win 5 les if the bias/conspiracy was real.
You also believe in a flat earth or the fake moon landing too?

The Spurs won in spite of Stern's meddling. Plus it offered plausible deniability to his schemes.

People that rig games (i.e. the McDonald's "Millionaire" scratch offs) know that you can't rig every single event. Such outcomes would draw way too much attention. You hedge your bets when you tip the odds to your favor. But you don't push your luck too far or you will get caught.

Again, it's convenient for Laker fans to dismiss the favoritism given the number of occasions your team has been the beneficiary of favorable officiating.

As for Amar'e... he knew the rules. Perhaps folks should blame the officials for not calling the deliberate foul on Horry prior to his hip-checking of Nash. He tried to stop the clock, but they swallowed their whistle. So he proceeded to make it obvious enough for them to finally call a foul and stop it - Nash flopped and the rest is history. The point is the Spurs still had to take care of business and win at Phoenix in Game 6, that game wasn't handed to them - the Suns simply folded.

Even if you factor the Donaghy (rogue official) factor - what he described wasn't a systemic tipping of balance towards the same team, rather it was a deliberate attempt by Vegas mafias to capitalize their inside intel RANDOMLY. They would hedge against non-scripted odds and capture failed spreads - anything that could give them sufficient loot without raising too much su ion. Nothing as overt as say, calling on a ref to give you a desired result on the W/L column (with statistically anomalous whistles). And yet that is precisely the tactic that Stern's inside men would use to ensure a particular outcome.

[itsamanuthree]

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[D Emily D]

Iverson is a sentimental favorite with fans, but he's not in Manu's league. Manu was much more efficient, a better defender, a better shooter, made better decisions, a better rebounder. Iverson's effort was admirable, but he sabotaged himself by refusing to be a PG, & causing every back court he was a part of to be undersized and at a disadvantage. He had lots of steals (but so does Manu), but took too many risky chances on D, could easily be posted up, and was at a disadvantage on almost every defensive switch. Iverson can't even claim a career ORtg higher than his career DRtg, which is extremely rare for all time great players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players

[SpursDynasty85]

Iverson is a sentimental favorite with fans, but he's not in Manu's league. Manu was much more efficient, a better defender, a better shooter, made better decisions, a better rebounder. Iverson's effort was admirable, but he sabotaged himself by refusing to be a PG, & causing every back court he was a part of to be undersized and at a disadvantage. He had lots of steals (but so does Manu), but took too many risky chances on D, could easily be posted up, and was at a disadvantage on almost every defensive switch. Iverson can't even claim a career ORtg higher than his career DRtg, which is extremely rare for all time great players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players

sentimental favorite ok, but then you make a statement like "Iverson is not in Manu's league?" That's ridiculous to make that statement.