Did you watch a 24 year old Iverson play or a 33 year old Iverson? He was a good shooter facing the toughest team defenses and the best defenders night in and out. No one else on that roster had to be guarded. And yet he carried them to an NBA finals and he won an MVP. I love Manu, I do. He's one, if not my favorite all time players. But he was no Iverson and even he would admit it. Now would the Spurs have won les with Iverson? I don't know. He didn't seem to be able to coexist with other scorers. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was an elite scorer that I saw torch Bruce Bowen, MJ/Pippen, whoever. All for a guy probably less than 6 ft tall. He was no doubt impressive.
Manu was a great player, but he was never in the MVP discussion, and I really don't think he could take that same 76er team to an NBA finals by himself. We'll never know because he always played with the big 3 and though his contribution to the big 3 was huge, at the end of the day, he was playing with a guy easily in everyone's top 10, if not Top 5 of all time great players in Tim Duncan and Tony Parker is a historically decorated player too.
I agree. But that's because the secret to that team was chemistry. You probably could've put Kobe on that team and the same thing would happen and there's no doubt Kobe was better than Manu. But someone can be a great individual player and not work in a team context. That's why I say Iverson was a better player, but not a better team player.
Michael Jordan
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Kobe Bryant
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Clyde Drexler
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Dwayne Wade
Manu Ginobili
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Jerry West
Ray Allen
James Harden
George Gervin
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Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
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Allen Iverson
John Havlicek
A simple-minded argument from a simple-minded fool.
I'm tired of foobah morons commenting on basketball. Their brains are all ed up from being smashed against helmets for 10+ years.
Forgot about Harden. There's already a case for him to be better considered than Manu all time. He is a MVP, multiple all star, better scorer, better distributor, worse defender but much, more durable. Equally as clutch.
The guy who is known as a massive playoff underperformer...?
Yeah, he's got the gaudy stats... but Manu literally invented the game that Harden has patterned his own game after.
You mean a 24 yo Iverson that shot 40% from the field and 70% from the free throws like? Yeah, great shooter.
Dude, Iverson is my favourite player of all-time. I know damn well all his strengths and weakneses. Same as Manu. That's exactly why I know Manu is the vastly superior player.
"equally as clutch"
Harden is literally Manu minus the defense and the clutch gene. Go check Harden's numbers as a sub on OKC and compare it to Manus. You may get surprised.
Last edited by DAF86; 08-29-2018 at 07:56 PM.
In other words: not a better player.
Also, I doubt Iverson beats Manu on a one on one.
Manu isn't likely a top 30 player all-time tbh. But neither is Porker. Few are.
DAFhomer
Listen Manu is a great player and his advanced stats suggest he is a top 50 player of all time but to play devil advocate here, Manus advanced stats is slighlty inflated due to playing a decent amount of his time against Bench Guys.
At his peak he was easily a top 10 player, but Harden is easily the most sophisticated offensive SG of all time.
Iverson mainly played in an era where 40% was acceptable so long as the personel around focused on defensive tasks since most players in the early 00s were less efficient in general.
Manu is easily the most influential spurs player though. Even more so than Duncan despite being clearly a significantly better player.
We’re mostly in agreement Manu isn’t top 30 of all time. The real issue is bringing this up on the guy’s retirement. It’s a factual statement that’s just in bad taste. Fans and players alike are celebrating his contributions to the game and the Spurs dynasty and there are contrarian buffoons like “oh he’s not top 30” or “he committed eight turnovers in one game in the Heat series”. What value does that add to the conversation other than trying to make your opinion stand out? These guys need to get a grip.
Last edited by FireMicoHalili; 08-29-2018 at 08:09 PM.
You put Manu on that 76er team and he won’t shoot 40%. And AI prime would destroy Manu prime in one on one. You can be a great player and not fit well in a team concept. For instance, AI had to have the ball in his hands. When he did, he could be dominant. Manu could play on or off the ball. AI would never be a bench player. Not so for Manu.
End of the day, this is all opinion and I know an Argentine is going to side w Manu. I don’t fault you for that. I’m partial to him bc I’m a Spurs fan. But you’d be hard pressed to find an expert that would say Manu is a better B.B. player than AI. There are things Manu does better than him, but I don’t think any GM would pick Manu over AI.
Lots of modern GMs would pick Manu because Iverson isnt an ideal 10' player. Sure in the 00s though, i doubt anyone would pick Manu
Just took a look. Harden was 22 (!) years old his last and most productive year in OKC. He was still a kid. And the offense was not centered around him, as it was more about Russ and KD. Still, his numbers were comparable (3p%, PPG, TRB/G, AST/G, St/G Minutes/per game), to Manu's first year with comparable minutes (about 30 mpg), 04-05, when Manu started every game (more attention, more plays run for him, Pop designing plays for him and letting him have the ball at the top of the key to go to his left every drive). And, Manu was fully in his prime that year, at 27. So your numbers argument is baseless.
https://www.basketball-reference.com...hardeja01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com...ginobma01.html
And then you can look at today, when Harden is literally the face of his franchise for several years, each time leading them to the WC finals by himself, with CP0 out with injury, and still almost beating the all star Worriers. You really can't even compare the two, apples to apples. One is clearly far superior player, even if the other is a beloved Spur and a 1st ballot HOF.
Who cares?
I think 3 things that count against him in his overall ranking are his his minutes played (25/game), the fact he came into the NBA so late (aged 25) & that he got hurt 4 seasons in a row going into the playoffs in his prime 2008-2011. As far as his prime is concerned, he's a Top 50 all time, unquestionably.
On the other side,his style of play would never lead to a player you could count on to play full minutes. He was great at what he was but a top 5 regardless of stats he wasn’t. Fans need to be real. Enjoy the rings that were won. But damn don’t disrespect other players and teams over your joi
Just out of my own curiosity, I'm going to name my personal top 30. Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me.
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Bill Russell
11. LeBron
12. Malone
13. Stockton
14. Jason Kidd
15. Dirk
16. DRob
17. Wade
18. Garnett
19. KD
20. Iverson
21. Moses Malone
22. Ewing
23. Olajuwon
24. Barkley
25. Pippen
26. Nash
27. Ray Allen
28. Westbrook
29. Harden
30. Curry
All iconic players, all better all time than Manu.
Agreed to some extent.
Top 5 all time any position or top 5 SG? that's a pretty big difference - he wasn't a top 5 player at any position but I like his chances to be top 5 SG or at least top 10 SG all time
That's always been my biggest knock on Manu was that his reckless style didn't allow him to play more than 30 minutes per game. He only had 2 season where he averaged 30 minutes a game.
Your list makes a lot of sense - very similar to mine with some exceptions. To me the following players from your list aren't top 30:
Kidd
Wade
Iverson
Nash
Westbrook
Harden
* Harden and Westbrook can still make top 30 if they ring.
Stats don't really mean anything to me. A very smart player can pad numbers like crazy. I rate top players based on their contribution and status throughout their careers and the respect they've got from their peers. That's why I don't think CP3 or Melo should be there either but some folks in this forum swear they are both top 30 or higher
Edit: BTW, none of these folks you rated above top 30 and that I excluded from your list are or were above Manu. I hope you aren't using ppg or some other stat to place them over Manu because it doesn't make sense. Most of these guys have never won anything.
To both of the above post.i could make a case for him as top 10 2g? Just a case. He was awesome. Why rank? Our team won 4 with him.
This has olajuwon at 23 Spurmsfans
Curry is easily a top 15 player of all time.
Having losers like Kid over Steph
Spursfans never ceases to amaze me.
Edit: My bad, you didnt have it in order.
But Ive seen that list before In spurstalk and it was aperently in order
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