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You should write the pros and cons of the Murray, Mills, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge lineup.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...7&goto=newpost
With all the upheaval that shook San Antonio over the summer, it’s not surprising that the Spurs rotation remains out of focus. However, it’s more than that. It’s not just that the Big 3 Era has ended and that the Kawhi Leonard bomb detonated, it’s that San Antonio’s roster still hasn’t really been put back together in a manner that makes much sense.
More specifically, the Spurs have a ton of options at shooting guard, no traditional option at small forward, and essentially three modern day centers among their top eight or so most talented players. I’m not saying it’s a bad roster but it certainly is an odd conglomeration.
The first step in figuring out the rotation Pop is going to utilize this coming season is to figure out the starting lineup he’s going to use out of the gates. As I write this, I legitimately have no idea which way Pop is leaning.
Anti-Gervin
C Pau Gasol
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF DeMar DeRozan
SG Patty Mills
PG Dejounte Murray
When Bob Bass (R.I.P.) moved George Gervin from small forward to shooting guard, he changed the course of Spurs history, not to mention basketball history in general. That happened 44 years ago (oh damn, 44 – mind blown) and Gervin credits the move for turning him into a Hall of Famer.
The 2018-19 Spurs roster would suddenly make a lot more sense if Pop decides to permanently move DeMar DeRozan from shooting guard to small forward. Listed at 6-foot-7 and 220 pounds, DeRozan is a bit thin for the position but he did spend about 40 percent of his minutes last year at small forward.
In this lineup, Mills doesn’t have to necessarily start at shooting guard, however this would give the team some continuity as it’s basically the lineup that Pop settled on last season. Against smaller teams, the coaching staff could exchange out Gasol for a mobile power forward such as a Gay or Bertans.
Pros
The glut at shooting guard wouldn’t be so messy with DeRozan out of the way. This solution also allows an easy way to get more shooting and playmaking into the starting lineup. With Gasol basically a part-time starter, it’d give Pop a lot of flexibility on a game-to-game basis.
Cons
DeRozan isn’t a good defender at shooting guard. As a full-time small forward, he’d probably have even more issues – to the point that his offensive game could suffer. It’s difficult to imagine a lineup like this being able to finish even in the top ten in the league on the defensive end of the court.
Gay Old Time
C Pau Gasol
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF Rudy Gay
SG DeMar DeRozan
PG Dejounte Murray
After getting a full season under his belt following the torn Achilles tendon, Pop could view Gay as ready to get back to big minutes. Remember, Gay is a guy who never averaged fewer than 33.8 minutes per game in the ten season prior to joining the Spurs, during which he was always a full-time starter. Last season, Gay averaged 21.6 minutes and started only six games during the regular season.
Pros
Gay and DeRozan have experience starting next to each, so that would hypothetically lessen some of the growing pains. The offense wouldn’t be highly efficient but it’d probably be better than what Spurs fans witnessed last season.
Cons
The perimeter defense against speedy shooting guards and small forwards would be so bad that Pop would likely be forced to start Gasol or Poeltl alongside Aldridge to try to clog the paint. The three-point shooting would be really lacking. Adding another midrange shooter like Gay to the starting lineup equation would really clog things up.
The Centerpiece II
C Pau Gasol
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF Quincy Pondexter
SG DeMar DeRozan
PG Dejounte Murray
Spurs fans will remember the time Pop notoriously called Keith Bogans “The Centerpiece” of the 2009-10 squad. With Bruce Bowen retired, Pop turned to Bogans as a starter in hopes of getting a defensive stopper into starting lineup. It didn’t work, to say the least.
Pop, as one would imagine, is already talking about hoping for a defender to emerge from training camp: “I’m more worried about defense than anything because of those guys being gone. They did a great job in that regard. That’s something we’ll have to replace. We’ll find out who is capable of doing it.”
Enter Quincy Pondexter. Or Jaron Blossomgame. Or Okaro White. Or whoever. Adding a 3-and-D small forward to the starting lineup would be a very Popovichian move.
Pros
If defense is the number one focus, this would probably be the way to go. It’s difficult to imagine the Spurs being an elite defensive team this year without adding an ace defender at small forward to the starting lineup.
Cons
The offense would undoubtedly suffer. Dealing with Murray’s offensive shortcomings is difficult enough. Adding a one-dimensional (at best) small forward could really cause spacing issues, particularly against the better teams in the league. Even adding Bruce Bowen himself to the starting lineup would be difficult to justify long-term due to the hit that would be suffered on the offensive end.
Back to Beauty
C LaMarcus Aldridge
PF Davis Bertans
SF Marco Belinelli
SG DeMar DeRozan
PG Dejounte Murray
Three-pointers have never been more important than they are in today’s NBA. Last season, the Spurs were 28th in the league in three-pointers made and 26th in the league in three-point percentage. To compare, back in the 2014 championship season, the Spurs led the league in three-point percentage and were 12th in makes.
Pros
This would be a really good offensive unit. If the Spurs are return to beautiful basketball, this is probably the lineup that would do it. The amount of shooting on the court would hide Murray’s deficiencies and it would give DeRozan plenty of room to create.
Cons
The defense would be really bad. I mean, you’re talking the worst defensive team in Pop’s history of coaching basketball.
Run, Run, Run
C LaMarcus Aldridge
PF Davis Bertans
SF DeMar DeRozan
SG Lonnie Walker IV
PG Dejounte Murray
Pop has said he wants Murray to run early and run often. If the coaching staff is going to emphasize speed, this is probably the fastest starting lineup possible. Maybe switch out Chimezie Metu for Bertans if Pop wants to go 100 percent gazelle.
Pros
It’d be pretty fun to watch. Young players would play a lot of minutes in order to keep the pace high.
Cons
I don’t imagine this lineup would result in a lot of wins. Even if Pop hired Doug Moe and Paul Westhead to ins ute the run-and-fun offense, the efficiency would still leave a lot to be desired.
Big Ballers
C Pau Gasol
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF Davis Bertans
SG DeMar DeRozan
PG Dejounte Murray
Don’t forget that Pop has a history of toying with big ball. Early in Duncan’s career, he started Duncan at small forward for a stretch by inserting Will Perdue at center and shifting David Robinson to power forward. Pop also started lumbering blokes like Danny Ferry and Chucky Brown (shudder) at small forward.
If not Bertans, another Ferry/Brown type choice would be Dante Cunningham or even Metu.
Pros
With that much size on the court, the defense would probably be okay. In fact, during Pop’s big ball experiments, defense was never really a problem.
Cons
The offense would be difficult to watch. It’d pretty much be impossible to be anything other than a 15th-20th ranked offense in the league.
Youth Movement
C Jakob Poeltl
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF DeMar DeRozan
SG Bryn Forbes
PG Dejounte Murray
If Pop wants to start a youth movement while also staying as compe ive as possible, I could see him going with something like this. To start Poetl over Gasol, the Spurs would likely have to put a sharpshooter like Forbes (in theory, at least) on the court if they have any hopes of creating adequate spacing.
Pros
Poeltl is likely to be the team’s long-term answer at center so throwing him into the fire sooner rather than later is preferred. And while I’m not convinced this is a grouping that would result in a lot of wins, this unit would give good effort and would be active on both ends.
Cons
DeRozan and Forbes would be a poor defensive duo. Who would defend strong, elite swingmen? Gasol still spreads the court a little bit. Poeltl doesn’t . . . and that’s not good when it comes to hiding Murray’s weaknesses.
Old Boys Club
C Pau Gasol
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF Rudy Gay
SG DeMar DeRozan
PG Patty Mills
If Pop gets tired of trying to hide Murray’s weaknesses, going old is an option. If Murray doesn't take steps in the right direction this season, I actually wouldn’t be surprised to see Pop make a move. There’s only so much you can hide a point guard in today’s league.
Pros
Mills and DeRozan would actually work together offensively due to DeRozan’s outstanding playmaking ability. The three-point shooting marksmanship would still be less than ideal but Mills would help quite a bit in that area. I don’t imagine that scoring would be much of an issue.
Cons
This would very likely be the worst of all the options defensively. Any player with even average quickness would would repeatedly exploit this starting lineup. San Antonio might be forced to change their logo to an orange traffic cone.
Degonete
C Jakob Poeltl
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF Rudy Gay
SG DeMar Derozan
PG Derrick White
If Murray doesn’t improve and White lives up to some of the promise we saw over the summer, the other option for Pop is handing the keys over to the Colorado native. And since it looks like one of White’s main strengths would be as a pick-and-roll initiator, it’d make sense to swap out Gasol and put in Poeltl.
Pros
If White’s starting, that means something has gone right in his development. In that timeline, this is a lineup that has a chance to be pretty good on both ends of the court, especially because White plays bigger than he is on the defensive end.
Cons
Gay doesn’t really fit as the small forward of this lineup. Unfortunately, I don’t see anyone else on the roster who would make more sense in this scenario. But, then again, that’s the story of this mismatch roster.
You should write the pros and cons of the Murray, Mills, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge lineup.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...7&goto=newpost
Wow , TimVP, so good to have you back. Your write ups are why I started coming to this site 10 years ago.
Over the course of the season.. Pop might try this: Murray, White, Derozan, Bertans, Aldridge. ..
That's the alternate Anti-Gervin lineup mentioned. It'd be pretty interesting and one of the less surprising choices.You should write the pros and cons of the Murray, Mills, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge lineup.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...7&goto=newpost
Buuuuuuuuut, the chances of Pop's starting lineup leaking more than 24 hours early and the new PA announcer getting the leaked lineup are somewhere between 0 percent and 0 percent. I doubt Pop even cares enough about the preseason to have officially made the choice by now.
Last edited by timvp; 09-29-2018 at 04:51 PM.
He probably hasn't even thought about coaching the game.
Be prepared for a lot of experimenting throughout the preseason and regular season with players around LaMarcus, DeRozan, and Murray. Those 3 are the only permanent locks. The starting lineup opening night, likely won't be the starting lineup come April.
Nothing seems like a slam dunk at this point. More than anything bc we don't know how well the young players are playing, how much they have improved, etc. and can't take Pondexter, Cunningham and co. for granted either. There's too much still unknown to really know. I expect Pop is looking around at all of those lineups and some other combinations, maybe including Marco.
I just like the smell of the freshness of this team. There's talent. They have potential. I'm not calling a championship, but we could see some real growth and entertaining play from this year's squad.
I have the itching inking that the conflagration of events from the past 16, or so months could be a rejuvenating salve for Pop's coaching.
We might see him on the squad for another 3 years...
Times have changed. Moving DeRozan from SG to SF wouldn't be some seismic change. In fact, it would be a change in name only because wings are mostly interchangeable. It just depends on matchups. He lacks the length/strength to defend most big wings who can create their own shot, as well as the lateral quickness to defend most guards who can create their own shot.
If Mills in place of Gasol holds true, that would afford the defensive flexibility to mostly spare him from having to do either.
It is funny that the obvious lineup was not in the write up:
DJ, Mills, DeRozan, Gay, Aldridge.
Also White only being a pg is something I hope wont happen. This team needs defensive and offensive shooters on the perimeter and we all hope Derrock can provide that along with our foundational staples, DD and DJ.
Next best lineup would be
Murray, Belli/White, DD, Gay, Aldridge.
If we need to go bigger we move to:
Mills, DD, Gay, Bertans, Aldridge
Or Murray, DD, Bertans, Aldridge, and Poeltl/Gasol.
The two lineups that make the most sense would be:
Murray - White - DeRozan - Bertans - Aldridge
Offense: enough three pt shooting from Bertans and White to play off DeRozan and Aldridge. If Murray develops a semi-reliable three pt shot, then it would be even better.
This lineup would also be very good at running, which suppossedly is what Pop wants to do.
Defense: What White has over other good three pt shooters on the roster like Mills, Bellinelli or Forbes, is that he doesn't suck on defense (at least on paper). It is still not ideal as having a true defensive ace, but having 2 out of 3 perimeter players being average to above average on defense would mitigate some of the expected problems on that end.
Bertans' defense is also underrated. He's far from a liability out there, like most people would think.
Or...
Murray - White - DeRozan - Aldridge - Gasol
Offense: Gasol wouldn't provide the volume three pt shooting that Bertans would but he would still be able to keep defenses honest. He's certainly a much better fit alongside Aldridge and DeRozan than Poetl would be.
The whole running thing would go out the window though.
Defense: Having two 7 footers out there would definitely help the defense on the long run during the regular season.
Roster fit: Starting with 2 traditional bigmen allows for the Spurs to have a rotation of its 10 best players: Murray-White-DeRozan-Aldridge-Gasol on the SL, and Mills-Bellinelli-Gay-Bertans-Poetl on the second unit.
With the previous lineup I gave (the one with Bertans over Gasol on the SL) one of Poetl or Gasol would have to be left off.
Hear, hear! It's going to be a fun year watching the lineup changes. Great thread here, thanks! I'm thinking Pop might be upping Rudy's minutes and maybe starting him for the familiarity reasons mentioned. As mentioned here, the 3 pt.shooting would be my concern. We definitely need to see Pau shooting the ball again and we can hope that LMA and Gay will improve in that area.
Yeah I think the pre-season will be full of experiments. That being said, I'm hoping in the name of getting DeRozan acclimated Pop might try to find some rhythm in the pre-season. I'm ready for tomorrow that's for sure.
That's probably a more realistic version of the Run, Run, Run lineup. It's small but it would be fun to watch
True. Obviously it'd be nowhere near as seismic as Bass' decision.
Then again, I haven't heard much speculation locally or nationally that DeRozan would basically just hop in and fill the same position Nephew vacated.
It's in the explanation of the first proposed starting lineup. It'd be a throwback to last season in which Gasol starts against bigger teams and Pop adds mobility with Gay against smaller teams.
The difficult aspect about not starting Gasol or Poeltl is that you'd then have to cut one completely out of the rotation.
If I had my way:
Murray / White / DeRozan / Poeltl / LMA
Youth Movement
C Jakob Poeltl
PF LaMarcus Aldridge
SF DeMar DeRozan
SG Bryn Forbes
PG Dejounte Murray
I would put Derrick White into Forbes spot - and ride with that lineup!
Pop is probably putting all names into a hat and picking out the starting lineup in the locker room tomorrow afternoon!
Actually I would choose ypur first line up, we could still run with 2 bigs in the 2nd team as Pau would help provide some creativity that the 2nd time is lacking. Pau would play centre on Def and PF on Off, while Poeltl would be reverse. The 2nd team perimeter Def would be so bad that 2 7 footers in the mid would be required.
Degonete because White is the player I'm most interested in and I'm still not a fan of Murray.
Thanks TIMVP for the quality thread, as you always are able to make, and because that's the real thought of us all, considering our off season...
I'm not gonna choose one of the starting five of TIMVP cause, imho, we lack perimeter defense...and DDR, also if focused on defense, can't become in one season a defensive stopper...
imho that's our biggest problem...we have tons of offensive players but we gave away all of our perimeter defenders in just one season (Kiwhi, Green, Kyle, Gino).
That's a really difficult situation...because all the people coming for them or that should play their minutes (DDR, Belli, Forbes, Mills) are all of them, no exception, considered from very bad to awful defenders...and of all of them, imho, only DDR has the tools to become something like a decent player on defense, considering he'll have to be necessarly focused on it, just because of the team clear flows.
White and Walker, on the opposite, have good or at least decent reputation as playing both sides players...but they are extremely young and unproven. The point is that, imho, we frankly have no other option than play them and make them make experience as soon as we can, despite the obvious growing pains and losses that could come just 'cause they're so young and unproven.
So, back about the starting five's projected by timvp, the one that comes the nearest to my wiew is the one with the young ones (youth movement) but no way I'd start Forbes, that's maybe our worst defensive player.
I know it will be quite impossible to start him from the beginning, but my hope is that Lonnie shows in training camp just enough to be considered starting material, also 'cause I like the pair of him and DJM together.
So starting five (aka youth movement improved): DJM - Walker - DDR - LMA - Poeltl
bench White - Belli (Mills/Forbes)- Bertans (Pondex.) Gay (Cunning.) Pau (Metu)
I think the best realistic lineup is Mills, Murray, DDR, LMA, and Gasol.
Mills provides a high volume 3pt shooter, something the starting lineup desperately needs. Gasol and Aldridge, together, have always yielded great defensive units-granted that often had Kawhi, Green, and Anderson playing alongside of them. Murray will be matched up against the opposing team's best guard while one of Aldridge or Gasol protect the rim.
Bench wise, Gay would play around 28 mpg including closing each half and make it more likely that Pop goes with all bench units i.e White, Beli, Betans, Gay, Poeltl.
That lineup is probably unplayable against GSW, and Houston but Pop can tweak the lineup in those games.
The Murray, DDR, Gay, LMA and Gasol lineup does have length and size which might be useful defensively but Gasol is probably the best 3pt shooter in that lineup and a low volume shooter at that. The spacing would be a mess and the offense would struggle and the defense likely wouldn't be good enough to justify making that the permanent starting unit.
White would have to really impress to go from the Spurs rookie with the fewest played minutes in a decade to starting. He could be a good to decent NBA defender and an above average shooter. It that happens, then it would make since to start him alongside Murray and DDR with LMA and Gasol protecting the rim.
Rather Mills instead of Forbes and pending how White looks.
Poeltl as a Blair starter (1st six minutes of each half and some second quarter run) is an interesting move. Gasol is certainly better than him but him as a vertical spacer might signal more 3pt shooting from Aldridge. He's a good rim protector and offensive rebounder, runs the floor well, sets good screens, finishes at the rim strong, played - all good things but he fouls a lot and is poor FT shooter too.
The bench in that scenario would be White, Beli, Bertans, Gay and Gasol- potentially a very good bench unit.
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