Start Bertans right now

[Chinook]

They don't have many options at forward, especially with the 3 back court injuries limiting the amount they can play 3 guard/wing lineups. Sure, they'll fake it (if Poeltl continues to generally start) for spot minutes with Aldridge masquerading as one, but in matchups where they need multiple forwards together for significant minutes, Bertans has to play.

Even if they wanted him to, Gay's days as even a 30 mpg player are more than likely finished and Cunningham is too limited to average something like 25 mpg.

They also need as much volume 3-point shooting as possible. Being 1st in percentage doesn't mean much if you're 30th in attempts.

Only an archaic organization wouldn't see the value in a mobile 6'10'' guy, who can shoot off movement, pass off the dribble and protect the rim.

Bertans isn't getting many minutes because the team has options at forward. Are there minutes available? Yes, but not so many that he doesn't have to play well to earn them.

I agree about Gay, but between him, Cun small-ball and big-ball, there are players to fill the spots. As guys get back, that'll become even more apparent.

Their three-best players shoot a bunch of twos. They aren't going to shoot many more threes with Bertans in the lineup than not.

If Davis can't rebound, his height is meaningless. Shot-blocking wings don't have the same value as shot-blocking bigs, so if Bertans has to defend outside the paint, he won't be in position to block shots. He's mobile for a big, but not that mobile for a wing. So if the actual debate right now in the thread goes the way of the folks wanting Bertans to be a three and play on the perimeter, then he doesn't offer value, either to an archaic organization or a new-age one.

Can't blame Pop for this. He clearly loves him some stretch-fours. It's outright disingenuous to act like the Spurs are against shooting PFs. Davis has to do PF things to get the minutes though, not just shoot.

[Chinook]

And yet with all those suppossed "several mistakes" Bertans still rates as an average defender and a net positive player all around. So he's either not making as many mistakes as he's assumed to make, or his contributions are so important that his mistakes aren't that relevant and should be overlooked a bit in favour of having him on the court more.

Why do you keep averaging three years? He played plenty last year. This very thread talks about it. Pop gave him plenty of run when Bertans didn't play soft like he is now. But right now, Bertans isn't playing well. He is making mistakes. He's not grading out as an average defender this year. The team is struggling on the boards and not defending anyone with him this year. This year, the offense with him is worse with him on the court. This year's Bertans isn't playing well. That's why he's not getting minutes.

I'm just baffled at what is that Pop sees that he has no problem giving a limited guy like Forbes 35 minutes per game despite awful metrics in both offense and defense (untill this season, where he's being a plus on O. Not as much as Bertans though) but keeps treating a clearly more influential player like Bertans like a ing scrub.

If you can't understand why Forbes is playing and not Bertans, I don't know what to tell you. It's really freaking obvious. Anyways, Bryn has better impact stats than Davis does. No idea where you're getting contrary information.

[DAF86]

Bertans isn't getting many minutes because the team has options at forward. Are there minutes available? Yes, but not so many that he doesn't have to play well to earn them.

I agree about Gay, but between him, Cun small-ball and big-ball, there are players to fill the spots. As guys get back, that'll become even more apparent.

Their three-best players shoot a bunch of twos. They aren't going to shoot many more threes with Bertans in the lineup than not.

If Davis can't rebound, his height is meaningless. Shot-blocking wings don't have the same value as shot-blocking bigs, so if Bertans has to defend outside the paint, he won't be in position to block shots. He's mobile for a big, but not that mobile for a wing. So if the actual debate right now in the thread goes the way of the folks wanting Bertans to be a three and play on the perimeter, then he doesn't offer value, either to an archaic organization or a new-age one.

Can't blame Pop for this. He clearly loves him some stretch-fours. It's outright disingenuous to act like the Spurs are against shooting PFs. Davis has to do PF things to get the minutes though, not just shoot.

But he does, that's the thing. A simple Google search shows that Bertans is an impactful player that should be getting more minutes.

[Chinook]

But he does, that's the thing. A simple Google search shows that Bertans is an impactful player that should be getting more minutes.

No, he doesn't. That's actually the thing.

[DAF86]

Why do you keep averaging three years? He played plenty last year. This very thread talks about it. Pop gave him plenty of run when Bertans didn't play soft like he is now. But right now, Bertans isn't playing well. He is making mistakes. He's not grading out as an average defender this year. The team is struggling on the boards and not defending anyone with him this year. This year, the offense with him is worse with him on the court. This year's Bertans isn't playing well. That's why he's not getting minutes.

I'm using Bertans' entire career numbers because of sample size, but if you want, we can use this year's numbers.

Bertans BPM=2.8. The best mark on the entire team. Alongside DeRozan and Gasol the only three players to post positive numbers on this metric.

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2019.html

[DAF86]

No, he doesn't. That's actually the thing.

Objective metrics say that he does.

[DAF86]

If you can't understand why Forbes is playing and not Bertans, I don't know what to tell you. It's really freaking obvious.

I'm not talking only about this season. I'm talking mostly about last season where Pop would rather play 3 or 4 guards lineups instead of playing Bertans.

This season too, I would rather see more Bertans and less Forbes/Mills pairings.

Anyways, Bryn has better impact stats than Davis does. No idea where you're getting contrary information.

Which impact stats?

[Chinook]

I'm using Bertans' entire career numbers because of sample size, but if you want, we can use this year's numbers.

Bertans BPM=2.8. The best mark on the entire team. Alongside DeRozan and Gasol the only three players to post positive numbers on this metric.

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2019.html

Objective metrics say that he does.

This is where you run into bull . Bertans has awful on/offs, which are more stable and informative (especially right now) than BPM, which is just a statistical attempt to replicate RAPM. Right now, he's just coming in and shooting. That's an easy role to perform for him. That's why his individual marks are good. If you allow someone else to score, it doesn't really hurt your personal defensive rating. If you block a shot, your defensive rating gets boosted significantly more. If you make a three, you ORtg goes up. If you pass up a shot, the rating doesn't go down. Over a large sample size, BPM will shift a lot of that out. That's why plus-minus is a better stat than folks realize.

But in 78 minutes, it's not there yet. Despite whatever Bertans does, the Spurs are a bad defense with him and a less-bad defense without him. They're a good offense with him and a very good offense without him. That sample isn't definitive enough to say Bertans is good or bad, but it does explain why he's not playing. The team is just playing better ball without him. That's no one else's fault but his own.

[Chinook]

Which impact stats?

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

Should also be obviously why Bryn played so much last year with Parker, Murray and Green all missing time and Bryn out-shooting the rest of the team in a year where spacing was rare.

[kaji157]

This guy is on fire today 👆

[DAF86]

This is where you run into bull . Bertans has awful on/offs, which are more stable and informative (especially right now) than BPM, which is just a statistical attempt to replicate RAPM. Right now, he's just coming in and shooting. That's an easy role to perform for him. That's why his individual marks are good. If you allow someone else to score, it doesn't really hurt your personal defensive rating. If you block a shot, your defensive rating gets boosted significantly more. If you make a three, you ORtg goes up. If you pass up a shot, the rating doesn't go down. Over a large sample size, BPM will shift a lot of that out. That's why plus-minus is a better stat than folks realize.

But in 78 minutes, it's not there yet. Despite whatever Bertans does, the Spurs are a bad defense with him and a less-bad defense without him. They're a good offense with him and a very good offense without him. That sample isn't definitive enough to say Bertans is good or bad, but it does explain why he's not playing. The team is just playing better ball without him. That's no one else's fault but his own.

Well, that's why I used Bertans' entire career as sample. Season after season he proves to be a positive player, at some point you gotta look at that fact and realize that there might be something there.

[Chinook]

Well, that's why I used Bertans' entire career as sample. Season after season he proves to be a positive player, at some point you gotta look at that fact and realize that there might be something there.

The burden is on Bertans to play better, not on Pop to hope he does. This whole thread is testament to the fact that Bertans gets minutes when he plays well and doesn't when he plays poorly. For some reason, you've continued to interpret it in the irrational opposite way to assume that Bertans plays well when given minutes rather than him getting minutes when he plays well. The latter way is a case of actually managing a player well. The former would require Pop to constantly forget who's playing and overlook taking Bertans out despite apparently wanting to do so at the earliest opportunity.

[DAF86]

https://www.basketball-reference.com...S/2019/on-off/

Should also be obviously why Bryn played so much last year with Parker, Murray and Green all missing time and Bryn out-shooting the rest of the team in a year where spacing was rare.

Over such a small sample size +/- it's a pretty ty stat though. For example, Bertans offensive +/- numbers are all kinds of ed up for playing garbage minutes alongside our third string scrubs.

[Chinook]

Over such a small sample size +/- it's a pretty ty stat though. For example, Bertans offensive +/- numbers are all kinds of ed up for playing garbage minutes alongside our third string scrubs.

Bert's on/offs are third-worst in the rotation behind Mills and Gasol. More likely that he's made players worse than they've made him worse.

[DAF86]

The burden is on Bertans to play better, not on Pop to hope he does. This whole thread is testament to the fact that Bertans gets minutes when he plays well and doesn't when he plays poorly. For some reason, you've continued to interpret it in the irrational opposite way to assume that Bertans plays well when given minutes rather than him getting minutes when he plays well. The latter way is a case of actually managing a player well. The former would require Pop to constantly forget who's playing and overlook taking Bertans out despite apparently wanting to do so at the earliest opportunity.

And who gets the burden when Mills does absolutely nothing but still gets 30 minutes?

Bertans has been playing just fine to get more minutes than he's getting, not just this season, but for the past 3 seasons. Pop just has a shorter leash with him than with other players, for some reason.

[Chinook]

And who gets the burden when Mills does absolutely nothing but still gets 30 minutes?

Can't use Mills as an excuse for everything.

Bertans has been playing just fine to get more minutes than he's getting, not just this season, but for the past 3 seasons. Pop just has a shorter leash with him than with other players, for some reason.

Another attempt at the same irrational interpretation. Bertans "plays so well" because when he doesn't play well, he's not in the game. He's constantly put in the best position to succeed. He excels in a situational role. I'm not against him getting minutes, but I understand why he gets benched.

[DAF86]

Can't use Mills as an excuse for everything.

I think this is the first time I mention Mills in 5 days or so.

Another attempt at the same irrational interpretation. Bertans "plays so well" because when he doesn't play well, he's not in the game. He's constantly put in the best position to succeed. He excels in a situational role. I'm not against him getting minutes, but I understand why he gets benched.

That's not how this works. The majority of the players that get "situational roles", don't post Bertans impact numbers.

[Chinook]

I think this is the first time I mention Mills in 5 days or so.

Doesn't matter. Mills has nothing to do with Bertans.

That's not how this works. The majority of the players that get "situational roles", don't post Bertans impact numbers.

You sure about that? Bonner always lead the team in impact stats. Regardless, it is the case with Bertans.

[DAF86]

Doesn't matter. Mills has nothing to do with Bertans.

It has to do with your premise of Pop handing out minutes because of merits though.

You sure about that? Bonner always lead the team in impact stats. Regardless, it is the case with Bertans.

First, Bonner always leading the team in impact stats is a lie. In fact, I doubt he ever did. Second, Bonner is just one example.

[Chinook]

It has to do with your premise of Pop handing out minutes because of merits though.

It's like wanting Pop to pay Simmons because he paid Mills. Bertans has to earn minutes from Pop even if Mills seemingly doesn't. No amount of bad play from Mills means Bertans should be allowed to play badly.

First, Bonner always leading the team in impact stats is a lie. In fact, I doubt he ever did. Second, Bonner is just one example.

It's not true in the very literal sense of Bonner leading the team in very impact stat every single season without fail. It is true in the sense that he had really good impact stats each year, to the point where folks would suggest that he invalidated the efficacy of those stats.

[SAGirl]

Is Davis trade ballast st this point? Pop obviously liked him he got paid a lot for a guy not getting minutes...
I am not sure what is going on with him.

(It seems Cunningham is making him less of a factor.)

[DAF86]

Folks can try to rationale this all they want, but Pondexter getting minutes over Bertans isn't justifiable, and it isn't on Bertans. Bertans hasn't played bad enough to warrant getting dog-house treatment in favour of a guy that looks like should be retired. It's clear that Pop has something particular with Davis. I'm not saying something personal, but something about Bertans' game that irks him in a special and odd way.

Now watch Bertans get some random minutes on the third where he obviously plays without any confidence whatsoever and folks using those minutes to justify Pop's decision.

[Chinook]

Folks can try to rationale this all they want, but Pondexter getting minutes over Bertans isn't justifiable.

It's easily justifiable. Bertans is guaranteed to be on the roster for at least a couple more months. Pon's guaranteed money is about to run out. Gotta give him some run before deciding how to handle his contract.

[skookumchuck]

It's easily justifiable. Bertans is guaranteed to be on the roster for at least a couple more months. Pon's guaranteed money is about to run out. Gotta give him some run before deciding how to handle his contract.

You easily use words like 'easily' when trying to make your point, yet there's no point of playing Pondexter outside of garbage time to see if he can even still jog up and down the court during an NBA game. Where as Davis, barring a trade, can and should be a rotation player. He's been playing poorly to start the season, especially given the fact that he has more tools than he's previously displayed for us and he obviously keeps on working on his game on both sides. But Pop's dead wrong on benching him like he has done, and if you thing that continuity doesn't affect some people(often, more talented than others) more than some, then you're dead wrong, too.

[DAF86]

Now watch Bertans get some random minutes on the third where he obviously plays without any confidence whatsoever and folks using those minutes to justify Pop's decision.

Called it.