'16-'18 Fools Gold Regular Seasons Were Worst Thing That Could Happen

[TD 21]

In particular, the minor miracle series win vs Rockets and 25 point game 1 lead vs Warriors.

Instead of realizing that the game was passing them by and that they were mostly winning at that level because they lucked into an MVP caliber player, an All-Star (who wanted to play in San Antonio more than he wanted to be a Spur), continuity and defense, they ignored their structural issues, increasingly believed their own hype and doubled down on intangibles and tertiary things.

It culminated in their becoming so brazen that they actually had the audacity to think that this horrifically assembled roster could improve upon 47 wins, instead of realizing the error of their ways and why they were covered up.

The more enlightened, knowledgeable posters pointed out the festering issues during those seasons, but were scoffed at for supposedly being contrarians, pessimists, etc. In reality, we were seeing the forest from the trees.

Now, it's all come to a head and this franchise is increasingly becoming the laughingstock of the league.

[apalisoc_9]

Half right.

The Spurs built the 15-17 team as a direct way to compete against pace and threeballs. The team was all about limiting fastbreaks, killing teams in areas they're not accustomed to defending (Aldridge), Midrange and being set defensively in the halfcourt better than anyone in the league. It got them back to back 60 wins.

The issue is that Leonard is gone and to recreate the same team requires specific skillsets thats not as abundant in the NBA anymore.

They screwed up with the Gasol and Mills contract, but the philosophy itself is not without merrit.

[Dex]

Half right.

The Spurs built the 15-17 team as a direct way to compete against pace and threeballs. The team was all about limiting fastbreaks, killing teams in areas they're not accustomed to defending (Aldridge), Midrange and being set defensively in the halfcourt better than anyone in the league. It got them back to back 60 wins.

The issue is that Leonard is gone and to recreate the same team requires specific skillsets thats not as abundant in the NBA anymore.

They screwed up with the Gasol and Mills contract, but the philosophy itself is not without merrit.

Surprisingly on point.

[TD 21]

Half right.

The Spurs built the 15-17 team as a direct way to compete against pace and threeballs. The team was all about limiting fastbreaks, killing teams in areas they're not accustomed to defending (Aldridge), Midrange and being set defensively in the halfcourt better than anyone in the league. It got them back to back 60 wins.

The issue is that Leonard is gone and to recreate the same team requires specific skillsets thats not as abundant in the NBA anymore.

They screwed up with the Gasol and Mills contract, but the philosophy itself is not without merrit.

Fatigue and Parker falling off a cliff prevented them from being a 60 win team in '15, but they were going to be a 60 win team with Leonard's ascenion, Aldridge's arrival, continuity and defense. They lucked into the first 2 and the last 2 were remnants of the previous era.

Thinking they could beat math period was a combination of arrogant and stupid. Thinking they could do so with inferior talent was insane.

[Leetonidas]

Half right.

The Spurs built the 15-17 team as a direct way to compete against pace and threeballs. The team was all about limiting fastbreaks, killing teams in areas they're not accustomed to defending (Aldridge), Midrange and being set defensively in the halfcourt better than anyone in the league. It got them back to back 60 wins.

The issue is that Leonard is gone and to recreate the same team requires specific skillsets thats not as abundant in the NBA anymore.

They screwed up with the Gasol and Mills contract, but the philosophy itself is not without merrit.

The Spurs were an elite team especially in '16 and again in '17. FO has made some atrocious decisions since then than have royally ed us so they obviously deserve criticism. But you can't blame them for assembling an elite back to back 60 win team just because the team is garbage now. Who could have predicted nephew quitting on us and forcing a trade?

[Pavlov]

Oh look, a hot take OP.

[Lonnie Walker IV]

Oh look, a hot take OP.

It's not even "Trash take" worthy.

[Lonnie Walker IV]

quitter left. End of story got.

[apalisoc_9]

Fatigue and Parker falling off a cliff prevented them from being a 60 win team in '15, but they were going to be a 60 win team with Leonard's ascenion, Aldridge's arrival, continuity and defense. They lucked into the first 2 and the last 2 were remnants of the previous era.

Thinking they could beat math period was a combination of arrogant and stupid. Thinking they could do so with inferior talent was insane.

Basketball is not math. Theoretically speaking, you can beat 3 ball basketball by slowing pace via efficient offense that modern teams are more than willing to give. It's not their philosophy that killed them, but it's their scouting within the NBA landscape.

The Spurs arent going to willingly play with lesser talent because they want to, they're playing with less talent because there is deficiency in their decision making in terms of personel buildup.

I suppose you are right in that they were arrogant for thinking they could beat the league that way after Leonards departure.

Its just that their philosophy is hard in terms of application because of the needed talent to make it work.

They need new blood in the organization that is in touch with modern day talent. They seem to be doing good drafting college players but struggle to properly evaluate existing NBA talent.

[Chillen]

Reality is setting in for Spurs. You trade away a top 5 NBA player this is what happens. It's not their fault Leonard forced his way out of San Antonio though.

The injuries have not helped this team at all. As it is they have enough to sneak into the playoffs but the defense has been awful so they are losing games and playoffs in jeopardy.

They need a trade because at this point what difference does it make really this team probably is not going to reach playoffs the way things are looking now.

The loss of Parker, Kawhi, Manu, Green sure did not help.

[Chinook]

Half right.

The Spurs built the 15-17 team as a direct way to compete against pace and threeballs. The team was all about limiting fastbreaks, killing teams in areas they're not accustomed to defending (Aldridge), Midrange and being set defensively in the halfcourt better than anyone in the league. It got them back to back 60 wins.

The issue is that Leonard is gone and to recreate the same team requires specific skillsets thats not as abundant in the NBA anymore.

They screwed up with the Gasol and Mills contract, but the philosophy itself is not without merrit.

Amazing that you're one of the few folks who seems to have really understood this. It wasn't just Leonard, though. They'd have a chance at being a solid second-tier team if they still had some semblance of defense to go along with DeRozan's scoring. If they find two great defensive forwards (like OG/Siakam) in the draft and gets Murray to shoot threes at a high rate, they can get back to being a top team. Issue is that Aldridge will be even farther from his 2017 self. I've maintained that Gasol failing to punish smaller players is the single biggest reason the Spurs had a limited ceiling in the last couple of years. There was no point in having Pau play next to Aldridge, because Gasol doesn't play like a big 70 percent of the time. Had they had Zach Randolph from a couple of years ago, they'd've been able to punish smaller teams. Now Aldridge can't even pretend to play the four, so they'd need a legit PF who is also a talented post player. Don't know of one that exists. Maybe that could be Hachimura.

[apalisoc_9]

Reality is setting in for Spurs. You trade away a top 5 NBA player this is what happens. It's not their fault Leonard forced his way out of San Antonio though.

The injuries have not helped this team at all. As it is they have enough to sneak into the playoffs but the defense has been awful so they are losing games and playoffs in jeopardy.

They need a trade because at this point what difference does it make really this team probably is not going to reach playoffs the way things are looking now.

The loss of Parker, Kawhi, Manu, Green sure did not help.

They need a trade but not for the reasons the fans want. The season is lost because of Murray injury and obviously Derozan being derozan.

They need to trade before Gay, Derozan, Aldridge value plummets even more.

Probablem is ownership. They probably want to remain compe ive. I get it. Its business.

[apalisoc_9]

Amazing that you're one of the few folks who seems to have really understood this. It wasn't just Leonard, though. They'd have a chance at being a solid second-tier team if they still had some semblance of defense to go along with DeRozan's scoring. If they find two great defensive forwards (like OG/Siakam) in the draft and gets Murray to shoot threes at a high rate, they can get back to being a top team. Issue is that Aldridge will be even farther from his 2017 self. I've maintained that Gasol failing to punish smaller players is the single biggest reason the Spurs had a limited ceiling in the last couple of years. There was no point in having Pau play next to Aldridge, because Gasol doesn't play like a big 70 percent of the time. Had they had Zach Randolph from a couple of years ago, they'd've been able to punish smaller teams. Now Aldridge can't even pretend to play the four, so they'd need a legit PF who is also a talented post player. Don't know of one that exists. Maybe that could be Hachimura.

It would be arrogant to continue with this philosophy, imo. It's great and I personally think before zaza injuries the spurs had a better chance than the fans give them credit but the reality is that talent from college and overseas are all within the new era.

Like you said, you dont know one that exist. It's suicide to continue moving with the same philosophy. College and Europe arent birthing Tim Duncans and rasheed wallaces. To add to that, Kawhi is a generational player. The best route is to adapt and embrace the new NBA because that gives PATFO more options in terms of personel buildup.

The Spurs gave derozan way too much credit. Its crazy how they didnt get OG at least in that trade. Anunoby is a good fit for the modern NBA and will be a decent fit if they do decide to continue with the Anti pace approach.

If by a mircale, they

[SpurSpike]

Never thought id say this but apalisoc is on point.

[TD 21]

Basketball is not math. Theoretically speaking, you can beat 3 ball basketball by slowing pace via efficient offense that modern teams are more than willing to give. It's not their philosophy that killed them, but it's their scouting within the NBA landscape.

The Spurs arent going to willingly play with lesser talent because they want to, they're playing with less talent because there is deficiency in their decision making in terms of personel buildup.

I suppose you are right in that they were arrogant for thinking they could beat the league that way after Leonards departure.

Its just that their philosophy is hard in terms of application because of the needed talent to make it work.

They need new blood in the organization that is in touch with modern day talent. They seem to be doing good drafting college players but struggle to properly evaluate existing NBA talent.

Not in a single game, but over the long haul, it is. You need as much variance as possible if you're even going to think about being teams with more elite talent and it starts with not hamstringing yourself by intentionally matching up poorly. Low event/variance basketball wasn't getting it done in 4 out of 7 or less. The Rockets got this and gave themselves a punchers chance.

They played with lesser and poorly assembled talent in large part because they were arrogant enough to think they could continue to out IQ teams instead of realizing that the '14 team was its own separate en y, with underrated talent.

Amazing that you're one of the few folks who seems to have really understood this. It wasn't just Leonard, though. They'd have a chance at being a solid second-tier team if they still had some semblance of defense to go along with DeRozan's scoring. If they find two great defensive forwards (like OG/Siakam) in the draft and gets Murray to shoot threes at a high rate, they can get back to being a top team. Issue is that Aldridge will be even farther from his 2017 self. I've maintained that Gasol failing to punish smaller players is the single biggest reason the Spurs had a limited ceiling in the last couple of years. There was no point in having Pau play next to Aldridge, because Gasol doesn't play like a big 70 percent of the time. Had they had Zach Randolph from a couple of years ago, they'd've been able to punish smaller teams. Now Aldridge can't even pretend to play the four, so they'd need a legit PF who is also a talented post player. Don't know of one that exists. Maybe that could be Hachimura.

So their thinking wasn't flawed because if they only had a bunch of pieces that are difficult to attain and could turn the clock back with a specific player, they could be good (but not good enough)? Great logic.

[Seventyniner]

Another thread from someone who will find any reason to pat himself on the back. Good job. I guess.

[Chinook]

So their thinking wasn't flawed because if they only had a bunch of pieces that are difficult to attain and could turn the clock back with a specific player, they could be good (but not good enough)? Great logic.

The actual logic was established by Apa and backed up by data. They've never had a problem keeping up with three-point shooting teams, because their D and efficient offense could always make up that advantage. It's plum ludicrous to argue that '16 and '17 were fool's gold. They were way closer to competing than a bum-ass team like Houston. Games are between two teams, not between two averages on a stat sheet. It doesn't matter how well a team shoots from three if in a series versus the Spurs, they can't seem to get enough open looks or stop the Spurs from using judicious offense to erase the TS% gap. By and large in every series the Spurs have played, they've either won or been right there in the shooting battle.

[apalisoc_9]

Not in a single game, but over the long haul, it is. You need as much variance as possible if you're even going to think about being teams with more elite talent and it starts with not hamstringing yourself by intentionally matching up poorly. Low event/variance basketball wasn't getting it done in 4 out of 7 or less. The Rockets got this and gave themselves a punchers chance.

They played with lesser and poorly assembled talent in large part because they were arrogant enough to think they could continue to out IQ teams instead of realizing that the '14 team was its own separate en y, with underrated talent.

So their thinking wasn't flawed because if they only had a bunch of pieces that are difficult to attain and could turn the clock back with a specific player, they could be good (but not good enough)? Great logic.

They won back to back 60 with that philosohpy so yes it was working in the long-run. I dont even think the spurs expected to win 60 in both those seasons. Their philosophy was more tailor made for a 7 game series.

Thankfully the league is not full of GSW so they're always going to win 50+ with their appraoch and I firmly believe everything they did was to counter golden state.

No one is beating Golden State playing threeball. You beat Golden state with an Elite wing and a competent big. Ala Cavs. And its what the spurs had before Kawhi left.

[RC_Drunkford]

They won back to back 60 with that philosohpy so yes it was working in the long-run. I dont even think the spurs expected to win 60 in both those seasons. Their philosophy was more tailor made for a 7 game series.

Thankfully the league is not full of GSW so they're always going to win 50+ with their appraoch and I firmly believe everything they did was to counter golden state.

No one is beating Golden State playing threeball. You beat Golden state with an Elite wing and a competent big. Ala Cavs. And its what the spurs had before Kawhi left.

Absolutely on point. Especially in 2017 the Spurs were absolutely built to defeat GS. GS couldn't guard Kawhi nor LaMarcus and Jonathon Simmons gave them problems as well. They had a mobile big who can switch pick and rolls in Dedmon and since Parker got injured Dejounte would've gotten minutes at PG to check Livingston. Add to that wing defenders like Danny Green and Kyle Anderson. And even David Lee played well for us and wasn't a bad defender that year. That team if healthy might have beaten Golden State and even if not, they were only a point guard away. Put Kemba on that roster and they ring. George Hill with the way he played in Utah that year might've even been enough, but he demanded way too much money in the offseason.

[tenbeersbold]

Is Gasol what's missing...Spurs had a 6-3 record when he went down

[BlackAndWhite]

2016 wasn't fools gold. They were legit before Duncan's second knee collapsed. If Parker, Kwad, and David Lee wasn't injured we had a good chance of beating the warriors in 2017.

[Bad Takes]

Another thread from someone who will find any reason to pat himself on the back. Good job. I guess.

Always the same poster with the hot take.

[TD 21]

The actual logic was established by Apa and backed up by data. They've never had a problem keeping up with three-point shooting teams, because their D and efficient offense could always make up that advantage. It's plum ludicrous to argue that '16 and '17 were fool's gold. They were way closer to competing than a bum-ass team like Houston. Games are between two teams, not between two averages on a stat sheet. It doesn't matter how well a team shoots from three if in a series versus the Spurs, they can't seem to get enough open looks or stop the Spurs from using judicious offense to erase the TS% gap. By and large in every series the Spurs have played, they've either won or been right there in the shooting battle.

Those teams were as fool's gold as it gets, which is why the national media never took them all that seriously to begin with. There was no way their archaic, low variance style was beating elite talents in a series. They were fortunate the '17 Rockets lacked anything resembling a 2nd star.

They won back to back 60 with that philosohpy so yes it was working in the long-run. I dont even think the spurs expected to win 60 in both those seasons. Their philosophy was more tailor made for a 7 game series.

Thankfully the league is not full of GSW so they're always going to win 50+ with their appraoch and I firmly believe everything they did was to counter golden state.

No one is beating Golden State playing threeball. You beat Golden state with an Elite wing and a competent big. Ala Cavs. And its what the spurs had before Kawhi left.

And the '18 Raptors won 59, narrowly missing 60 by losing their finale in overtime to the Heat: Were they not fool's gold?

Who cares about fattening up the record on run of the mill teams? With the championship in mind, only the Warriors, Cavaliers, Clippers and '16 Thunder mattered.

There's a happy middle between trying to mimic the Warriors and obstinance, but the Spurs were too consumed with trying to look smarter than everyone else as opposed to trying to strike that balance.

The Cavs were a lethal 3-point shooting team in their own right and need a series of breaks to win that series.

[R. DeMurre]

The 67 win team was absolutely legit, but they had the natural issues of aging & change to deal with.
You can't blame the FO for keeping Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, & Diaw around for a last hurrah while transitioning to a more Kawhi-centric team while also incorporating their first Big Time free agent signing in LMA... In many ways, the LMA experiment worked great that year: He had both the best DRtg and the best FG% of his career... It was also a big deal for the Spurs generally-- I still remember the conventional wisdom that summer being that there was no way LMA would wind up in San Antonio because major free agents "never" considered the Spurs... He wasn't (and isn't) perfect, but it was still a good move at the time, considering Duncan was close to retirement, and there weren't any better options.

I dunno, in a way I find all of this hand-wringing and analysis kind of funny... A team that over two seasons lost Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, and Danny Green, and also lost their young new PG to injury is struggling and having a (relative) down year?? Unimaginable!
In a year of incredible parity in the West so far, the absolute worst season in twenty years finds the Spurs 5.5 games out of first place after 26 games... that's a pretty mild mannered disaster if you ask me.

[apalisoc_9]

Those teams were as fool's gold as it gets, which is why the national media never took them all that seriously to begin with. There was no way their archaic, low variance style was beating elite talents in a series. They were fortunate the '17 Rockets lacked anything resembling a 2nd star.

And the '18 Raptors won 59, narrowly missing 60 by losing their finale in overtime to the Heat: Were they not fool's gold?

Who cares about fattening up the record on run of the mill teams? With the championship in mind, only the Warriors, Cavaliers, Clippers and '16 Thunder mattered.

There's a happy middle between trying to mimic the Warriors and obstinance, but the Spurs were too consumed with trying to look smarter than everyone else as opposed to trying to strike that balance.

The Cavs were a lethal 3-point shooting team in their own right and need a series of breaks to win that series.

Why compare the 18 raptors to the 17 spurs. We're talking about basketball philosophies here and wether or not it has its merits.

You beat Golden state playing slow with a dominant wing and a big. Thats exactly what the spurs were trying to do. Take the midrange the league is gonna give them, set your defense up as a result.