1. #41101
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    Sorry to hijack thread


    lets go back to flynn/mueller/russia imo

  2. #41102
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    This Supreme Court Case Could Impact The Mueller Probe And Boost Trump's Pardon Power

    The double-jeopardy clause of the Cons ution says a person can't be prosecuted twice for the same crime.

    But, in fact, for 170 years, the Supreme Court has said that separate sovereigns — state and federal governments — can do just that, because each sovereign government has separate laws and interests.

    the argument produced an interesting debate among the justices about when it is appropriate to reverse a long line of decisions.

    The dual sovereigns rule at issue in Thursday's case raised a red flag over the Mueller investigation, because

    if such double prosecutions were barred, some of those already convicted in the Mueller probe could not be tried for the same crimes in state court if Trump were to pardon them, something that he has openly flirted with doing.


    Thursday's arguments, however, strongly suggested

    the court is unprepared to toss out the separate sovereigns rule.

    At least five of the nine justices, from liberal to conservative, expressed clear doubts about overruling nearly two centuries of precedent.

    Double prosecutions most often come in high-profile cases, frequently civil rights cases, when there is a sense that justice has not been done.

    A get-out-of-jail-free card for Trump associates?

    The case has attracted extra attention because of

    Trump's comments that
    he could possibly pardon his onetime campaign chairman Paul Manafort and other Trump associates

    who have been — or could be — convicted in prosecutions brought by Mueller.

    If the Supreme Court were to bar dual prosecutions,

    "there is a concern that a president of the United States could pardon an individual for all federal offenses" and

    it would effectively be a "pardon for everything,"

    These concerns, he noted, extend from the president down to governors or local prosecutors.

    They could "bestow great gifts upon friends or family by rushing to prosecute them for certain crimes," Saltzburg pointed out, by obtaining minimal punishments.


    That would be "cutting off" the ability of the federal government to bring prosecutions, for the same conduct, particularly in corruption cases.

    some in liberal circles have speculated that one reason the Trump administration was in such a hurry to get Kavanaugh confirmed to the Supreme Court was his demonstrated affinity for presidential power.

    However,

    the Trump administration is urging the Supreme Court to preserve the status quo by upholding the separate sovereigns doctrine,

    as are 36 states, including states that lean "red" and "blue" politically.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/06/67344...rumps-pardon-p




  3. #41103
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Seems like more defendants would take their chances at trial and more lawyers would encourage them to, if the law were so heavily tilted in their favor.
    I think both you and he have a point. Obviously, if the law were so favorable to criminal defendants, you’d imagine there would be more who rolled the die. But the presumption of innocence and evidentiary burden are unique to criminal trials. You can’t discount that either.

  4. #41104
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    I think both you and he have a point. Obviously, if the law were so favorable to criminal defendants, you’d imagine there would be more who rolled the die. But the presumption of innocence and evidentiary burden are unique to criminal trials. You can’t discount that either.
    I am just going on common sense - and the fact (IMO) that most defendants are guilty.

    If you are completely innocent and the charges are completely made up you most definitely want to go to trial to clear your name. If you did zero wrong and some attorney is trying to convince you that 3-5 years of prison time is a great deal - you will most likely tell him/her to go himself/herself.

    If you know - as most defendants do - that you robbed the bank/raped the girl and some attorney is telling you that instead of going to trial and possibly doing 20-25 years if found guilty - or take the guilty plea now, avoid trial and just do 3-5 years with only 12-15 months of "real" jail time - you know you are taking the 12-15 months because you know deep inside you are guilty.

    This is what I am referring to.

  5. #41105
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    "If you did zero wrong and some attorney is trying to convince you that 3-5 years of prison time is a great deal -

    you will most likely tell him/her to go himself/herself."

    not if you're an innocent black, where "plea for 3-5" or no plea and it's "40 or life", with racist prosecutors and cops withhold exonerating evidence.



    Last edited by boutons_deux; 12-15-2018 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #41106
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I think both you and he have a point. Obviously, if the law were so favorable to criminal defendants, you’d imagine there would be more who rolled the die. But the presumption of innocence and evidentiary burden are unique to criminal trials. You can’t discount that either.
    Fair enough, but that seems proper: the sword the state wields can separate people from their liberty and their lives.

  7. #41107
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Fair enough, but that seems proper: the sword the state wields can separate people from their liberty and their lives.
    Agreed 100%. Those are important features along with other like the right of
    Confrontation, mandatory disclosure of evidence, etc. Philosophically, I’m of your bent as well. But I’m not willing to go so far as to say the law always disfavors one side or another.

  8. #41108
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    If you are completely innocent and the charges are completely made up you most definitely want to go to trial to clear your name. If you did zero wrong and some attorney is trying to convince you that 3-5 years of prison time is a great deal - you will most likely tell him/her to go himself/herself.

    If you know - as most defendants do - that you robbed the bank/raped the girl and some attorney is telling you that instead of going to trial and possibly doing 20-25 years if found guilty - or take the guilty plea now, avoid trial and just do 3-5 years with only 12-15 months of "real" jail time - you know you are taking the 12-15 months because you know deep inside you are guilty.
    This is incorrect to the extent you believe the innocent always go to trial and always are exonerated. Given the risks, and the costs of hiring counsel, innocent people cop pleas all the time. It’s not as black and white as you suggest.

  9. #41109
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    lol

  10. #41110
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    This is incorrect to the extent you believe the innocent always go to trial and always are exonerated. Given the risks, and the costs of hiring counsel, innocent people cop pleas all the time. It’s not as black and white as you suggest.
    Never said never - but I believe that a huge percentage of incarcerated people did what they have been accused of.

    I don't believe - like some here do - that there are tons of people wrongfully accused by the system. Are there people wrongfully accused by other people? (angry girlfriends) - yes absolutely. Is there tons of defendants that are wrongfully accused by a corrupt DOJ? I doubt that.

    I never did say that the innocent ALWAYS go to trial - but yes - if their cases go that far and their charges are bogus? I'd say they have to choose trial over accepting years of prison for something they didn't do IMO.

  11. #41111
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    "If you did zero wrong and some attorney is trying to convince you that 3-5 years of prison time is a great deal -

    you will most likely tell him/her to go himself/herself."

    not if you're an innocent black, where "plea for 3-5" or no plea and it's "40 or life", with racist prosecutors and cops withhold exonerating evidence.




    yeah - I have to agree with you here.

    Like I said - when it comes to race or money - justice is biased heavily against poor and minorities.

  12. #41112
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    "If you did zero wrong and some attorney is trying to convince you that 3-5 years of prison time is a great deal -

    you will most likely tell him/her to go himself/herself."

    not if you're an innocent black, where "plea for 3-5" or no plea and it's "40 or life", with racist prosecutors and cops withhold exonerating evidence.



    yeah - I have to agree with you here.

    Like I said - when it comes to race or money - justice is biased heavily against poor and minorities.
    yall are both wrong and talking out your asses without any such experience to relate to in order to talk on such a subject. two dip s like yall have no clue.

  13. #41113
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    yall are both wrong and talking out your asses without any such experience to relate to in order to talk on such a subject. two dip s like yall have no clue.

    LOL -

    so angry and bitter

  14. #41114
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    LOL -

    so angry and bitter
    angry and bitter about what? you claim it so own it and let us all know the play pretend you do up in your hollow skull.

    is this the new trolling of weak ing wannabe men? time to just call everyone angry, bitter, meltdown, etc just because people don't agree with you and call you out for the you are?

    i can count on 1 hand the stupid s here who have your same weak mentality.

  15. #41115
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    angry and bitter about what? you claim it so own it and let us all know the play pretend you do up in your hollow skull.

    is this the new trolling of weak ing wannabe men? time to just call everyone angry, bitter, meltdown, etc just because people don't agree with you and call you out for the you are?

    i can count on 1 hand the stupid s here who have your same weak mentality.
    Funny - all the potheads I know are happy and mellow and chill.

    You are just an unhappy lil .

    lighten up francis!

  16. #41116
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    Funny - all the potheads I know are happy and mellow and chill.

    You are just an unhappy lil .

    lighten up francis!
    because you and the other gots here say so huh? too funny how you weak s have to label others due to the fact they don't hold your same insane opinions of this world. i'm far from angry and anyone who actually knows me knows that. you sir are just a made got that thinks parroting the same bs the other gots here parrot is somehow truth when it's far from it.

    keep on assuming i suppose. my assumption of you being made is more spot on with every reply you make towards me.

    btw, i'm no pothead. i love bud but i'm far from your stereotypical "pothead".

  17. #41117
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    lol meltdown

  18. #41118
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  19. #41119
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    the usual suspects... i could've told you exactly who would chime in right after me because you made gots are all the same.

  20. #41120
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    I chime in right after your meltdowns because they're funny as .

  21. #41121
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    Kori calling people made behind his computer screen per par

  22. #41122
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    the usual suspects... i could've told you exactly who would chime in right after me because you made gots are all the same.
    Still angry


  23. #41123
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    Agreed 100%. Those are important features along with other like the right of
    Confrontation, mandatory disclosure of evidence, etc. Philosophically, I’m of your bent as well. But I’m not willing to go so far as to say the law always disfavors one side or another.
    There's something for the defense to be sure. That's why foreigners and natives still admire it.

  24. #41124
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    So Rudy G admitted on national television that Trump’s campaign conspired with Russia

  25. #41125
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    So Rudy G admitted on national television that Trump’s campaign conspired with Russia
    On CNN, Trash fellator says Trash has thick skin and doesn't mind criticism, to rounds of laughter.

    Julie Annie says "over my dead body" will Trash interview with Mueller.

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