Democrats Looking To Ramp Up The Fascism

[DMC]

I would agree there's something "abnormal" (ie: an altered state, not necessarily right or wrong, otherwise, these people wouldn't suffer). Dysphoria in general is "a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction", which I think you'll agree it's pretty vague (this is why I'm not a fan of psychology/psychiatric). Normal common people experience dysphoria in their daily lives all the time for all sorts of reasons. Some get over it, some end up with anxiety, depression, etc. which in turn can end up in suicide, etc.

Like I said, there's still debate in academia about gender dysphoria. The DSM used to use the "gender iden y disorder" term, but now has changed it to "gender dysphoria". This again, IMO, goes straight to the lack of a solid understanding of the psyche (chemical, electric, etc). While we don't know all about it, there's people still facing these issues, so it makes sense we try different approaches, especially when we already know that further stigmatization and social shunning only deepens the condition (as seen forever with, say, sexuality).

When I brought up the Cons utional protections for religion, my point was squarely aimed at your comment about disallowing people to indulge in the self-delusion. However, if that has therapeutic value, and the societal cost is relatively minor (I believe it is, the major argument against it, besides the direct rationality case, which is valid, is tearing down traditionalism), then let's provide that tool. For some people it's going to be entirely make-believe, that's fine, but for these people it could be a valuable way to overcome.

The issue arises when these people get into positions of power and create and enact legislation that supports or enforces their dogma (religion) or their delusion (gender dysphoria).

Personal freedom: I have the right to not acknowledge your tradition. You have the right to not acknowledge mine. This is true only for individual rights.

I disagree with Koriwhat's take on it. I don't think either shows a spine or weakness. I think though that denying reality (i.e. biological factors) in favor of fantasy and desire (in both religion and gender iden y because let's face it, the gender iden y issue is becoming a religion) cannot have a socially positive outcome eventually. Once you break down the fabric of rationality in favor of comforting the social fringe, all things are up for sale.

[koriwhat]

The bolded is a social construct based on traditionalism. Has nothing to do with biological sex, s or vaginas. Once you have that understanding, then we can analyze why it takes a much bigger spine for a boy to wear pink in our society without being shunned. Pointing fingers at somebody else for what they wear or what they want to do with their bodies or names because it defies your notion of what's traditional doesn't involve having a spine at all, it goes directly to having your traditional social values threatened.

who's pointing fingers? idgaf how someone wants to express themselves even if that means chopping off their s and s; doesn't bother me one bit. what bothers me is this notion that we regular folk have to play pretend with them and if not we get shamed, fired from our jobs, etc... they've got problems obviously but now we're all supposed to act like they don't.

like i said, i have 3 trans friends and i treat them with the utmost respect and have even before we were friends. as well, i call them by the name they want to use and the pronoun they associate with because i respect them. if you're just off the street and come at me a certain way i won't give a about you or anything you wish of me. it's how it is.

if i had to lay odds on what really transpired between that student and teacher i'd probably assume the student was making a bigger deal out of this then it should be. either way, the teacher deserves respect too, right? why's it all one sided?

[ElNono]

The issue arises when these people get into positions of power and create and enact legislation that supports or enforces their dogma (religion) or their delusion (gender dysphoria).

Personal freedom: I have the right to not acknowledge your tradition. You have the right to not acknowledge mine. This is true only for individual rights.

I disagree with Koriwhat's take on it. I don't think either shows a spine or weakness. I think though that denying reality (i.e. biological factors) in favor of fantasy and desire (in both religion and gender iden y because let's face it, the gender iden y issue is becoming a religion) cannot have a socially positive outcome eventually. Once you break down the fabric of rationality in favor of comforting the social fringe, all things are up for sale.

And now we get to the actual political meat of the problem. I understand your concern, and share it, since it then would affect me individually, however here is where the at udes split up: some people don't really care about tradition and will like to afford these people the possibility of better integrating to society (provided the therapy works for them, and being cognizant there's a fine line), and other people feel themselves uncomfortable with breaking tradition and the potential slippery slopes (that when you actually dig a bit deeper, have a lot to do with what's 'normal', where 'normal' means traditional social constructs), and they rather just close the door to this threat to their traditional values from the get go.

This doesn't happen just with this specific issue, we've gone through this with a lot of items: from same sex marriage, to religion, to women's suffrage, to slavery, to political correctness, to immigration (ie: DACA). So this really isn't new, just part of a general shift of looking at ourselves and our social rules and re-prioritizing what we individually think it's important.

And that's actually rational. Also rational is for people that are suffering greatly in the framework of our social construct due to it, that they'll seek solutions to that suffering. Whether they're a minority or a majority is really immaterial in so far as that their struggle is real. Rationality and tradition are not the same, and they don't go hand in hand. As I pointed out before, the fact that men could only vote was irrational on it's face. It took a fairly massive social movement to change that however, and now we look at that as the normal, but it clearly wasn't back then, and at some point it was also a fringe. It also opened the same slippery slope you mention, things like what happens when women are a majority and their vote decide who our president is going to be, which would affect everybody. We can also surmise that the notion of a change in the status quo prompted dysphoria on the majority at the time.

So, personally, I'm not that big of a fan of social traditions and I don't fear them going away. I find some of them arbitrary, and sometimes even irrational. I'm also mindful that if you indulge too deep into that, you could end up in the moral relativism end, which is also a trap. So there's a careful balance, and there has to be a constant re-evaluation of where we're at and where we're headed. With the advances in science, this will only get more pronounced. From IVF, to AI, there's much bigger possibilities for disruption (and thus, social unease), and I honestly don't think people can just obviate this or outright forbid it, if they want to shape it.

[ElNono]

who's pointing fingers? idgaf how someone wants to express themselves even if that means chopping off their s and s; doesn't bother me one bit. what bothers me is this notion that we regular folk have to play pretend with them and if not we get shamed, fired from our jobs, etc... they've got problems obviously but now we're all supposed to act like they don't.

like i said, i have 3 trans friends and i treat them with the utmost respect and have even before we were friends. as well, i call them by the name they want to use and the pronoun they associate with because i respect them. if you're just off the street and come at me a certain way i won't give a about you or anything you wish of me. it's how it is.

if i had to lay odds on what really transpired between that student and teacher i'd probably assume the student was making a bigger deal out of this then it should be. either way, the teacher deserves respect too, right? why's it all one sided?

Well, you mentioned that one way to battle this would be to have a spine, stand up to them, even if we look like assholes. That might work to allay your concerns, but I don't think it really does anything for them, or makes the issue go away. Ask your trans friend about it.

As far as the teacher, I think it's stupid simply because even in the case where he might've been just looking for an excuse to get fired, this was possibly the worst way to do it, due to the almost guaranteed immediate media attention. Just to be sure, that doesn't imply the kid and school are right and the teacher is wrong (we can debate that). I'm talking strategy here.

[DMC]

And now we get to the actual political meat of the problem. I understand your concern, and share it, since it then would affect me individually, however here is where the at udes split up: some people don't really care about tradition and will like to afford these people the possibility of better integrating to society (provided the therapy works for them, and being cognizant there's a fine line), and other people feel themselves uncomfortable with breaking tradition and the potential slippery slopes (that when you actually dig a bit deeper, have a lot to do with what's 'normal', where 'normal' means traditional social constructs), and they rather just close the door to this threat to their traditional values from the get go.

This doesn't happen just with this specific issue, we've gone through this with a lot of items: from same sex marriage, to religion, to women's suffrage, to slavery, to political correctness, to immigration (ie: DACA). So this really isn't new, just part of a general shift of looking at ourselves and our social rules and re-prioritizing what we individually think it's important.

And that's actually rational. Also rational is for people that are suffering greatly in the framework of our social construct due to it, that they'll seek solutions to that suffering. Whether they're a minority or a majority is really immaterial in so far as that their struggle is real. Rationality and tradition are not the same, and they don't go hand in hand. As I pointed out before, the fact that men could only vote was irrational on it's face. It took a fairly massive social movement to change that however, and now we look at that as the normal, but it clearly wasn't back then, and at some point it was also a fringe. It also opened the same slippery slope you mention, things like what happens when women are a majority and their vote decide who our president is going to be, which would affect everybody. We can also surmise that the notion of a change in the status quo prompted dysphoria on the majority at the time.

So, personally, I'm not that big of a fan of social traditions and I don't fear them going away. I find some of them arbitrary, and sometimes even irrational. I'm also mindful that if you indulge too deep into that, you could end up in the moral relativism end, which is also a trap. So there's a careful balance, and there has to be a constant re-evaluation of where we're at and where we're headed. With the advances in science, this will only get more pronounced. From IVF, to AI, there's much bigger possibilities for disruption (and thus, social unease), and I honestly don't think people can just obviate this or outright forbid it, if they want to shape it.

There's not really a careful balance though. What would facilitate that?

[DMC]

Well, you mentioned that one way to battle this would be to have a spine, stand up to them, even if we look like assholes. That might work to allay your concerns, but I don't think it really does anything for them, or makes the issue go away. Ask your trans friend about it.

As far as the teacher, I think it's stupid simply because even in the case where he might've been just looking for an excuse to get fired, this was possibly the worst way to do it, due to the almost guaranteed immediate media attention. Just to be sure, that doesn't imply the kid and school are right and the teacher is wrong (we can debate that). I'm talking strategy here.

My sister is a psychiatrist and deals with this stuff regularly. She was saying a couple days ago that at least some of the issues we are facing when dealing with gender dysphoria is that the person isn't always necessarily looking to fix anything by transitioning. They want to get out of what they are, and not long after they transition they come to realize that they are still the same person. They didn't get away from themselves as they'd hoped. Often this leads to suicide attempts. This is why I said it's a mental illness, just as BPD would be. We wouldn't take a bipolar person and try to get society to act as if there's nothing going on there.

[DMC]

who's pointing fingers? idgaf how someone wants to express themselves even if that means chopping off their s and s; doesn't bother me one bit. what bothers me is this notion that we regular folk have to play pretend with them and if not we get shamed, fired from our jobs, etc... they've got problems obviously but now we're all supposed to act like they don't.

like i said, i have 3 trans friends and i treat them with the utmost respect and have even before we were friends. as well, i call them by the name they want to use and the pronoun they associate with because i respect them. if you're just off the street and come at me a certain way i won't give a about you or anything you wish of me. it's how it is.

if i had to lay odds on what really transpired between that student and teacher i'd probably assume the student was making a bigger deal out of this then it should be. either way, the teacher deserves respect too, right? why's it all one sided?

These folks want to be accepted into the gender they choose, but they rarely if ever truly are accepted. This cannot be changed by wishcasting (waiting for someone to collect all the time's I've used that term lately). If your best friend (guy) tells you he's now a girl, you'll spend 10 years thinking of that person as a guy, maybe never think anything but that. Just as if you take a Volkswagon frame and put a Ferrari chassis on it, you'll think of it as a Volkswagon with a Ferrari chassis. You'll never think of it as a Ferrari no matter how much the owner wants you to. Had you never known, you could be fooled.

[ElNono]

There's not really a careful balance though. What would facilitate that?

The same social shunning/rejection when somebody tries to crowbar dogma into the government, for example. I mean, sometimes it's not entirely preventable from happening, but the irrationality eventually comes to the forefront, and normally ends up being deflated by it's own vapidity. A good example du jour of indulging into delusion is the border wall. (And notice I'm not against comprehensive immigration reform)

My sister is a psychiatrist and deals with this stuff regularly. She was saying a couple days ago that at least some of the issues we are facing when dealing with gender dysphoria is that the person isn't always necessarily looking to fix anything by transitioning. They want to get out of what they are, and not long after they transition they come to realize that they are still the same person. They didn't get away from themselves as they'd hoped. Often this leads to suicide attempts. This is why I said it's a mental illness, just as BPD would be. We wouldn't take a bipolar person and try to get society to act as if there's nothing going on there.

There's an iden y crisis for sure. I honestly don't think mental health is taken as seriously as it should be. A lot of people think we'll just pop a pill or two, or people will just get over it, and move on. Sometimes it's temporary, sometimes it's deep rooted. It has serious consequences, including deaths or suicides and affects the fabric our society. If anything, progress in the form of automation, etc, have brought additional societal pressures and anxiety. And sometimes there's really no easy answers. I just think being dismissive doesn't help the situation at all (not that you are, but some people do take that route).

[DMC]

The same social shunning/rejection when somebody tries to crowbar dogma into the government, for example. I mean, sometimes it's not entirely preventable from happening, but the irrationality eventually comes to the forefront, and normally ends up being deflated by it's own vapidity. A good example du jour of indulging into delusion is the border wall. (And notice I'm not against comprehensive immigration reform)

There will be a border wall, if for no other reason than other GOPers saw that Trump got elected running that scam. It might not happen in the next few years but I believe there will be a wall, because Mexico isn't gaining any ground in the "developing" part of "developing countries".

There's an iden y crisis for sure. I honestly don't think mental health is taken as seriously as it should be. A lot of people think we'll just pop a pill or two, or people will just get over it, and move on. Sometimes it's temporary, sometimes it's deep rooted. It has serious consequences, including deaths or suicides and affects the fabric our society. If anything, progress in the form of automation, etc, have brought additional societal pressures and anxiety. And sometimes there's really no easy answers. I just think being dismissive doesn't help the situation at all (not that you are, but some people do take that route).

Folks are often dismissive of anything that doesn't directly affect them. I believe a lot of conservatives see the gender iden y issue as a "look at me" moment for socially awkward people, a way to be noticed when they never really have been. I don't know how true that is, but there are enough examples of people jumping on the gender iden y bus to at least cause me to raise an eyebrow. Like the #MeToo movement, there are genuine, core cases that need to be examined and then a lot of attention seekers who cloud the issue with their own agenda.

[koriwhat]

Well, you mentioned that one way to battle this would be to have a spine, stand up to them, even if we look like assholes. That might work to allay your concerns, but I don't think it really does anything for them, or makes the issue go away. Ask your trans friend about it.

my trans friends have nothing to say tbh... they never went out of their way to draw attention to them being trans in the first place. i'm 3 for 3 at this point in calling a spade a spade and all three of them are great people. i feel like most trans are like my friends who don't care to put themselves out there and just go about their "transitioning" on their own terms.

it's like politics, you have both sides at each others throats but more so the far left & far right. the regular folk in each party sit back and just observe.

I'm talking strategy here.

there is no strategy when you allow the loons to run the asylum.

[ElNono]

there is no strategy when you allow the loons to run the asylum.

Sure there is. People deal with things they find offensive/contrarian all the time. I mean, what does the loon and asylum look like are fairly debatable, tbh.

[spurraider21]

Also the suicide rate of transgender and transexual people is exponentially higher than cisgendered people. That alone should support the notion that gender dysphoria is a mental condition (perhaps illness is too strong a word) that needs to be addressed.

well i think you have to ask the next question and figure out why their suicide rates are higher. is it because of the social shame they have to endure? in that case, you can pin the blame on the society around the individual, and not the individual himself.

that's supported by the finding that suicide rates among the trans community are nearly 50% higher when the person is "out" of the closet... in that they have to openly face a world that likely doesn't accept them.

Suicide rates post op vs pre op aside

this also contemplates that all transgendered people are going to go under the knife. there have also been studies showing that suicide rates drop after surgery...

https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ss/...746/1017478ar/

ast-year serious consideration of suicide was highest among those who were planning a medical transition (55% considered suicide in this group), significantly higher than among those who had completed a transition, and among those who were not planning to or did not need to transition. Those planning or in process of medically transitioning sex also had very high prevalences of past-year attempts (27% and 18%, respectively), each significantly higher than prevalences of attempts in the other two groups: 1% among those who completed medical transition and 3% among those not planning a transition or for whom the concept did not apply.

[DMC]

Suicide as an answer to the fact that they cannot smoothly transition physically and socially to what they feel they should be clearly indicates a disorder. Neither medicine nor the social landscape can be customized to fix that.

Adults commit suicide because of how they feel about themselves. This is the reason they transition as well. Even cisgendered people abuse cosmetic surgery, some do it because they dont like who they are. So should we also pretend homely people are attractive? Should they get modeling jobs?

So do you suggest everyone pretend to believe men are women to prevent suicides? Do you think thats a viable solution?

In airport, will address your orher points later.

[spurraider21]

Suicide as an answer to the fact that they cannot smoothly transition physically and socially to what they feel they should be clearly indicates a disorder. Neither medicine nor the social landscape can be customized to fix that.

Adults commit suicide because of how they feel about themselves. This is the reason they transition as well. Even cisgendered people abuse cosmetic surgery, some do it because they dont like who they are. So should we also pretend homely people are attractive? Should they get modeling jobs?

So do you suggest everyone pretend to believe men are women to prevent suicides? Do you think thats a viable solution?

In airport, will address your orher points later.

“Pretend to believe men are women”

i think this mischaracterizes the issue because of the sex/gender distinction. Nobody expects you to believe a penis is a vagina. But that person with a penis, on a social level, behaves and relates a lot closer to the “female” role ie wearing pink and enjoying dolls more than action figures. That has nothing to do with physiology. what would prevent somebody with a vagina from primarily wearing blue, and preferring to play with action figures/toy trucks instead of pink and dolls? and yet socially, we would call those "male" behaviors.

the confusion is inherent because we use the same male/female nomenclature to define both sex and gender, and further because a vast majority of the population is cis

[Chris]

[spurraider21]

imo sports eligibility should be based on sex and not gender where strength/physique are paramount to the sport.

that said, if you're biologically a female who is taking hormones in an attempt to transition, then you should also be disqualified from women's sports due to the unfair advantage. let them move up to play with men, if they wish to participate. but i dont see a cir stance where a biological male should be able to compete with female athletes.

[Chris]

[Chris]

[Nathan89]

Another Dem gem.

[Isitjustme?]

Twitter gave you access back?

I know they banned you for posting like a bot iirc lmao

[Chris]

[Winehole23]

FASCISM! LEAVE LAURA LOOMER ALONE!

[Pavlov]

lol felon

[Chris]

lol felon

lol you didn't watch

lol snarky troll

[Pavlov]

lol you didn't watch

lol snarky troll

Describe what he says in your own words.

I predict it's something something slavery, something something KKK, something something Jim Crow and history stops at 1968.

Right?