Lakers: Beating the 73-9 Warriors made me the GOAT

[Killakobe81]

I would say Jordan was a pretty good passer if he wanted to. The young Jordan had the Same issue kobe had in terms of not trusting his teammates but the presence of KfC and Pippen allows him to change. He became a very good passer later in his career, especially during the first three peat.

There were quite a few really good passing SG. Outside of McGrady Jordan and manu, Drexler, wade, Steve smith, Ron Harper, Brandon Roy, moncrief, carter, Maravich, fat lever and harden were all better or just as good as kobe as a passer. I know you mentioned some of the names but I wouldn’t put kobe in that extraordinary passing SG list. Pretty much only manu, pre-chucker harden, drexler, Maravich and pre injury Roy should be there.

I agree on ROy.
Pistol pete is before my time and like i stated i dont include dudes i never saw play on lists like those . i have seen highlights and even a few classic games (especially LSU ones) but not fair imho to judge those guys by stats alone or cherrypicked games on NBA classic that show those players at their utmost best.
Its like judging Magic only on Game 6 in 1980 or Wade only on his first finals vs. Mavs. You watch those games and you could argue Magic is better than Lebron or Wade better than Jordan/Kobe.
I need the context of watching players in multiple playoffs and big regular season games to rate them fairly.

[DMC]

"Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

in' Lakers fans are so delusional
Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.

[Will Hunting]

"Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

in' Lakers fans are so delusional
Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.

12

[Laker_1995]

"Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

in' Lakers fans are so delusional
Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.

personally I think Kobe cracks the top 10 barely.

[Killakobe81]

personally I think Kobe cracks the top 10 barely.

that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

[KobeScored81]

that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

[Killakobe81]

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

[Killakobe81]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

[DMC]

I agree on ROy.
Pistol pete is before my time and like i stated i dont include dudes i never saw play on lists like those . i have seen highlights and even a few classic games (especially LSU ones) but not fair imho to judge those guys by stats alone or cherrypicked games on NBA classic that show those players at their utmost best.
Its like judging Magic only on Game 6 in 1980 or Wade only on his first finals vs. Mavs. You watch those games and you could argue Magic is better than Lebron or Wade better than Jordan/Kobe.
I need the context of watching players in multiple playoffs and big regular season games to rate them fairly.

that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

You're the one who drops both names together as if they are at the same level.

Imagine someone saying "you're trying to say Gobert is as good as Hakeem/Splitter"

[DMC]

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

Said no one ever outside of LG.com

[DMC]

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

The fact you have Stephen Curry in the top 10 all time says about all anyone needs to know about your recency bias and BB IQ

[Killakobe81]

Please let the guy above know, I dont think they are interchageable ...it was an example.
I obviously know Jordan is superior to Kobe I never have said otherwise and I will quit ST today if anyone can fiond a post where I said Kobe was better or they are equals.

Most I have ever said Kobe is a better all around scorer (skillset wise) vbut that is based on eye test ... he is not as efficient, consistent or even as good in the finals as MJ. I am just saying footwork/moves etc.
I never thought he was better than Jordan.
I had hoped he would surpass him and he failed.
I also wanted Bron to surpass him and he has failed sor far, IMHO but he has some that feel he is greater.
MJ is still the GOAT and i dont even Like MJ but he just is imho.

[lefty]

Not saying that zeke sucked but he is pretty much unanimously on the top 15 of all time, top 20 at a minimum but when you look at it, is he that much better than say kidd, Stockton, or even iverson? I think he’s benefitted from being the face of a b2b winning franchise while players like dumars and Laimbeer just didn’t get the recognition they deserved.

I would take Robinson, Barkley, Garnett, and dirk over Thomas if I was building a team.

He was their leader.
No way they b2b without him

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

nope. kd is not going to be anything more than a ringchasing afterthought on people's all time lists, and kd knows it and is salty as eff about it

kobe in everybody's discussion for best SG of all time behind GOAT MJ

[ambchang]

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

It is your method but it’s not the most logical. C and PG historically have loaded talent. PF has been the weakest until the recent glut of great PF came in at boosted the position (duncan, dirk, Garnett). SG is still painfully weak though. After Jordan, there is a huge drop to the kobe, wade, Drexler level.

Also interesting you put curry that high already. He’s still unproven in the playoffs even though he absolutely changed the game. While zeke really got his reputation from performing in the playoffs. Besides, you can’t possibly put curry in the top 10. He’s not even dirk Garnett level.

Top 10 (in order in which they pop to my head):
Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Wilt

[ambchang]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

This is just getting crazy. Durant is working towards being the most overrated player in league history. Paul george is now having OKC at the level before Durant left with a similar/weaker cast.

Your bird hate is just irrational.

[ambchang]

He was their leader.
No way they b2b without him

I’m not sure about that. Chuck Daly was their leader. Zeke with his poisonous personality would have ruined that team if Daly didn’t keep them in check.

[spurraider21]

The fact you have Stephen Curry in the top 10 all time says about all anyone needs to know about your recency bias and BB IQ

well he made it clear he's not determining that irrespective of position. there are a lot more bigs that would fit ahead of steph, but only 4 "big man" spots available with his method

[RsxPiimp]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

inhave to disagree with that. bird still owns durant in total mvps. his total body of work > kd.

[Killakobe81]

This is just getting crazy. Durant is working towards being the most overrated player in league history. Paul george is now having OKC at the level before Durant left with a similar/weaker cast.

Your bird hate is just irrational.

what I had him as the GOAT SF (which makes him top 5) pre 2016 ... dont act like a freaking kid. saying someone is pitentiall better is not "hating".
How is that hate because I think Bron is better? he has some # of rings with better counting numbers alonger peak etc.
Magic and Bird are extremely debatable but play different positions, but I admit I am biased.
KD is a two time finals MVP something that mattered in our previous debates ... (but apparently means nada now because you love Bird)
Imagine what KD can do with another HOF player and two other all stars ...LARRY never had THAT kind of support ...

Saying someone is "coming for" doesnt mean they will get there, KD can blow out his knee.
But a case can be made if we are just talking hoops, not legacy just skill ... like scoring shooting etc. that KD has already passed Bird. he will never rebound or pass as good as Bird but he is a better defender and based on our previous debates that matters also or only when it suits your side of the argument? KD has better range is a better driver has better handles. better at dunking finishing in transition. I could go on but you get the point.

Saying KD who is one of the most gifted natural scorers ever MAY surpass Larry Bird on my all time SF list is not some out of left field "hate". its based in tangible facts as well as teh eye test. you just value Bird's passing (We all do) and rebounding but KD is better at a lot more things than bird is better than him at.

Just because he is a BAN ...doesnt mean he is not still great.

[Killakobe81]

inhave to disagree with that. bird still owns durant in total mvps. his total body of work > kd.

feel free its debatable i said coming for ...not has passed but lets play that out.

Bird has more MVP's than KD so he is greater, right?
Jordan has more than Lebron.
Kareem has more than Lebron
Nash has more than Hakeem, Robinson, Westbrook, Harden, KD etc ...so he is greater than those guys?
Derek rose has an MVP and Kawhi does not is his body of work greater?

MVp's dont mean ish nowadays.
Now when Bird won his they were all well deserved and legit ..I admit that but MVP's in teh grand scheme dont mean crap since they went poloitical post Jordan winning them.

[Killakobe81]

It is your method but it’s not the most logical. C and PG historically have loaded talent. PF has been the weakest until the recent glut of great PF came in at boosted the position (duncan, dirk, Garnett). SG is still painfully weak though. After Jordan, there is a huge drop to the kobe, wade, Drexler level.

Also interesting you put curry that high already. He’s still unproven in the playoffs even though he absolutely changed the game. While zeke really got his reputation from performing in the playoffs. Besides, you can’t possibly put curry in the top 10. He’s not even dirk Garnett level.

Top 10 (in order in which they pop to my head):
Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Wilt

1. doesnt matter what you are saying ... I agree that some of those positions are weaker than others bet those are the breaks.
2. They are being judged amongst their peers. Sure it might be cheating to put steph at Pg or duncan at PF .... I have always listed Zeke but decided Steph's impact puts him slightly over, so sue me ...it's my list. steph (along with Mike D) has revolutionalized hoops whether you hate it or love it ...
3. all this comparing big vs small makes no sense ... I rate guys based on rings/impact/stats/eye-test those are the best at what they did at their "designated positions".

We all know Tim/hakeem were really centers if we gonna play the positional game, but I wanted to split the diffrence and get all three on my top two teams. To me its close enough that Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq to make sure they all were represented and I think are better choices than KG/Dirk/Malone/chuck etc.

[Beartrucci]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents?

[Laker_1995]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents?

facts.

[DMC]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents?

Can you imagine what Usain Bolt would have done to Jesse Owens?