Murray is expendable

[Chinook]

Well, just two things: we obviously are watching different games. I believe he shoots most of his fadeaways outside the paint - way outside the paint. You believe otherwise. I suspect neither one of us has the time or inclination to either compile or watch a compilation of all of LMA's fadeaways this season. Push.

Second: I do not accept "post-ups" as a valid statistical category. That category has become such a catch-all it is virtually meaningless. Basically any time a player has his back to the basket, regardless of proximity to the basket, it is somehow called a "post-up." Chinook replied to one of my posts earlier that bank shots count as post-ups. Proximity to the basket was inherent in the meaning of "post-up" for most of the history of the game - including when I was an undersized center who had to have a fadeaway move. I know it when I see it, and it isn't 18 feet from the basket.

If you accept the current understanding of a post-up, then we will simply have to agree to disagree. The bottom line, regardless of categories or semantics, is that, except for face-ups, I want LMA to play closer to the basket and play as big and strong as his physique allows. That is maximizing his stature and strength and maximizing his advantage over most defenders.

A post-up is a type of play, not a spot on the court. A pick-and-roll is usually started outside the arc, but it doesn't have to be. Same with spot-ups, isos, curls, cuts and whatever. Duncan, who was old school and obviously not soft, would post up to get the ball, then turn around to size up the opposing big en route to shooting his bankers. Dirk posted up constantly to shoot his fadeaways. Davis posts up to do his drives. I understand that you mean a back-to-the-basket kind of post-up. I'm just saying that that general playtype has never just been one thing. Aldridge's post-up rate isn't misleading compared to other players. I doubt any one near him on that list backs down their guys significantly more frequently.

[sasaint]

A post-up is a type of play, not a spot on the court. A pick-and-roll is usually started outside the arc, but it doesn't have to be. Same with spot-ups, isos, curls, cuts and whatever. Duncan, who was old school and obviously not soft, would post up to get the ball, then turn around to size up the opposing big en route to shooting his bankers. Dirk posted up constantly to shoot his fadeaways. Davis posts up to do his drives. I understand that you mean a back-to-the-basket kind of post-up. I'm just saying that that general playtype has never just been one thing. Aldridge's post-up rate isn't misleading compared to other players. I doubt any one near him on that list backs down their guys significantly more frequently.

I doubt anybody near him on that list shoots fadeaways as frequently as LMA, either. Semantics aside, when LMA plays up to his stature and strength, he is an excellent player, but when he settles for long fadeaways... Softridge, and not an asset.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

LMA has been running the floor very hard in recent games (now that he got his lard-ass in shape) and has been living in the paint. He has had several fast break dunks. He also has been rolling a few times in the pick n roll which is something he never really did before. He prefers the pic n pop routine. I honestly believe that having a consistent second ball handler on the starting line up is really helping him. White may still be young but he has great chemistry with LMA and consistently looks for him. He has thrown him some great pocket passes, some ally oops, and some wrap around passes for easy buckets as well. LMA is positioning himself great this season bc frankly he knows that there are rewards for doing so. He also has been fighting for boards. I know people hate the idea that he has to get "his touches" but it's really annoying when you fight for position and bang in the post with 250 pound guys only to not get the ball all game. He really has dominated every single all star big man this year and honestly I don't know what more you can ask of him this year. As far as the playoffs go, well we have to get there first, and he matches up well with anybody not named Houston or Golden St. Hopefully those 2 teams meet in the second round and we don't have to worry about them.

As far as Murray goes. Everyone has been ing and moaning about having small point guards who can't defend, jack up bad shots on offense, ball hog, or dribble dribble dribble. We finally get a point guard with speed, height, athleticism, and defense, doesn't shoot tht much, and ppl still . Sorry guys but it's hard to draft this fictional player that ya'll want. Even if Murray is overrated a bit on some stuff, we still need him. By all accounts he shot thousands of 3s during the summer and worked on his body as well as his shot mechanics. You could definitely see the difference in his form this year in the preseason and ppl still complained that it was too slow. It takes YEARS to get an NBA shot when you have to work from scratch, even Kawhi took like 4 years (remember most of his rookie and sop re 3s were open from the corner ala Bowen). All we could really ask of Murray was to get some semblance of a jumper and hit the open 3 when dared to. I believe he showed his willingness to work hard in the offseason and the capability to do just that.

Nobody is going to pay Derrick White a ton of money when he does become a free agent so we can afford to keep him and Murray. They work well together theoretically in that White doesn't need to shoot all the time and is a great off ball player. What I hope does happen is that Murray comes off the bench next year and finds his game again while pairing him with Lonnie so that Lonnie can make some defensive mistakes while Murray covers them up. Kind of like how White does for DDR. Then Murray spends all of the offseason working on his jumper and he's no longer a liability for the offense in the starting line up. There's a gamble involved, but the risk is worth the reward in that we would be FREAKING AWESOME if everything came together.

[R. DeMurre]

U think Boogie takes a fade away 18 footer in a playoff game that has harden guarding him in the post with foul trouble?

Cousins has never been near a playoff game.

[sasaint]

LMA has been running the floor very hard in recent games (now that he got his lard-ass in shape) and has been living in the paint. He has had several fast break dunks. He also has been rolling a few times in the pick n roll which is something he never really did before. He prefers the pic n pop routine. I honestly believe that having a consistent second ball handler on the starting line up is really helping him. White may still be young but he has great chemistry with LMA and consistently looks for him. He has thrown him some great pocket passes, some ally oops, and some wrap around passes for easy buckets as well. LMA is positioning himself great this season bc frankly he knows that there are rewards for doing so. He also has been fighting for boards. I know people hate the idea that he has to get "his touches" but it's really annoying when you fight for position and bang in the post with 250 pound guys only to not get the ball all game. He really has dominated every single all star big man this year and honestly I don't know what more you can ask of him this year. As far as the playoffs go, well we have to get there first, and he matches up well with anybody not named Houston or Golden St. Hopefully those 2 teams meet in the second round and we don't have to worry about them.

As far as Murray goes. Everyone has been ing and moaning about having small point guards who can't defend, jack up bad shots on offense, ball hog, or dribble dribble dribble. We finally get a point guard with speed, height, athleticism, and defense, doesn't shoot tht much, and ppl still . Sorry guys but it's hard to draft this fictional player that ya'll want. Even if Murray is overrated a bit on some stuff, we still need him. By all accounts he shot thousands of 3s during the summer and worked on his body as well as his shot mechanics. You could definitely see the difference in his form this year in the preseason and ppl still complained that it was too slow. It takes YEARS to get an NBA shot when you have to work from scratch, even Kawhi took like 4 years (remember most of his rookie and sop re 3s were open from the corner ala Bowen). All we could really ask of Murray was to get some semblance of a jumper and hit the open 3 when dared to. I believe he showed his willingness to work hard in the offseason and the capability to do just that.

Nobody is going to pay Derrick White a ton of money when he does become a free agent so we can afford to keep him and Murray. They work well together theoretically in that White doesn't need to shoot all the time and is a great off ball player. What I hope does happen is that Murray comes off the bench next year and finds his game again while pairing him with Lonnie so that Lonnie can make some defensive mistakes while Murray covers them up. Kind of like how White does for DDR. Then Murray spends all of the offseason working on his jumper and he's no longer a liability for the offense in the starting line up. There's a gamble involved, but the risk is worth the reward in that we would be FREAKING AWESOME if everything came together.

I can agree with what you have said except the last paragraph. Re-read your own first paragraph. You make the case yourself: DWhite is the natural PG. If Dijon develops a 3-ball, he still will not have the natural PG instincts of DWhite. White is the PG and Dijon with a 3-ball is the SG. I have no idea what you think the "good money" is that nobody would offer DWhite. Keeping DWhite, Dijon and LWIV will be very difficult down the road.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

I can agree with what you have said except the last paragraph. Re-read your own first paragraph. You make the case yourself: DWhite is the natural PG. If Dijon develops a 3-ball, he still will not have the natural PG instincts of DWhite. White is the PG and Dijon with a 3-ball is the SG. I have no idea what you think the "good money" is that nobody would offer DWhite. Keeping DWhite, Dijon and LWIV will be very difficult down the road.

I don't think people are going to offer him anymore than fathead got. 9 million a year sounds very reasonable for him. I could be very wrong about that of course... And yeah DJ is never going to be a natural point guard, this year really screwed up his timeframe in that regard. He has a lot to work on and a lot to learn, but I have faith in him for some reason. But my first paragraph had to do with this year specifically while my last paragraph had to do with like 2021. I don't think LMA will be our focal point by then so his my touches thing kinda doesn't matter. Let DJ and Lonnie start in 2021 with DDR as a 3 and we have a good place to start. White can be the main guy off the bench who controls the tempo and changes the flow of the game.

I do understand what you're saying though in that we could have a potential OKC problem with all 3 guys demanding money and the ball and playing time. But I don't think that will be an issue for us (mainly bc none of them will be as good as OKC's big 3). But the Spurs have shown interest in going over the salary cap to keep talent, while OKC refused to.

[sasaint]

I don't think people are going to offer him anymore than fathead got. 9 million a year sounds very reasonable for him. I could be very wrong about that of course... And yeah DJ is never going to be a natural point guard, this year really screwed up his timeframe in that regard. He has a lot to work on and a lot to learn, but I have faith in him for some reason. But my first paragraph had to do with this year specifically while my last paragraph had to do with like 2021. I don't think LMA will be our focal point by then so his my touches thing kinda doesn't matter. Let DJ and Lonnie start in 2021 with DDR as a 3 and we have a good place to start. White can be the main guy off the bench who controls the tempo and changes the flow of the game.

I do understand what you're saying though in that we could have a potential OKC problem with all 3 guys demanding money and the ball and playing time. But I don't think that will be an issue for us (mainly bc none of them will be as good as OKC's big 3). But the Spurs have shown interest in going over the salary cap to keep talent, while OKC refused to.

I am much higher on White. He is the best natural PG prospect. I don't like making him a 6th man. The team has thrived since he took the reins. He's my PG going forward. Dijon and Lonnie may be more athletic, but I would rather have the natural PG leading the starting unit and a great athlete coming in to give juice as the 6th man.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

I am much higher on White. He is the best natural PG prospect. I don't like making him a 6th man. The team has thrived since he took the reins. He's my PG going forward. Dijon and Lonnie may be more athletic, but I would rather have the natural PG leading the starting unit and a great athlete coming in to give juice as the 6th man.

I love me some DWhite. I was very high on him coming into the season and called him a James Harden lite (offensively). I had no idea he would be so good on defense. The dude is great. It just might turn into a Manu v Parker thing where Manu obviously was starter material but bench needed Manu badly so they put him as the 6th man. I trust Derrick more to be an entire offense like Manu was rather than Murray. Plus with DDR and Lonnie in the mix, we might not need as much of Whites strengths for the starters as the bench would. But he may very well be the starter and murray with him and lonnie off the bench. Or murray off the bench. Who knows. Either way we can agree its a good problem to have

[sasaint]

I love me some DWhite. I was very high on him coming into the season and called him a James Harden lite (offensively). I had no idea he would be so good on defense. The dude is great. It just might turn into a Manu v Parker thing where Manu obviously was starter material but bench needed Manu badly so they put him as the 6th man. I trust Derrick more to be an entire offense like Manu was rather than Murray. Plus with DDR and Lonnie in the mix, we might not need as much of Whites strengths for the starters as the bench would. But he may very well be the starter and murray with him and lonnie off the bench. Or murray off the bench. Who knows. Either way we can agree its a good problem to have

As a Spurs fan, I am not accustomed to having such an embarrassment of riches in the backcourt. Yeah, right now it feels great!

[BillMc]

As a Spurs fan, I am not accustomed to having such an embarrassment of riches in the backcourt. Yeah, right now it feels great!

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

[sasaint]

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

That was certainly extraordinary Quality, but beyond them, pickins were usually slim. I was really talking about the quan y this season.

[Mr. Body]

Murray and White as a starting backcourt could be sick, especially if Murray develops a jumpshot.

[vander]

I'd rather Murray still be the starter when he comes back, Murray can just play D and feed DeMar/LMA. when White's out there he needs to be running the show.
White coming in with the 2nd unit will destroy teams

[K...]

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

Even then, third guard was so spotty, we never had young talent, just rotating vets until wingstop.

[SpursDynasty85]

Murray wouldn't fetch much right now. Walker might fetch a greater price but he did fall because of his injury concerns. This team has too many guards for next year. Thats why I think Walker will probably still spend half the time in G League.

[John B]

Murray and White as a starting backcourt could be sick, especially if Murray develops a jumpshot.

Add Walker to that and boy that's a defensive juggernaut.. Pops can run 3 guards with Demar and LMA in smallball. I get a boner just thinking about it.

[skin27]

Spurs will trade Murray next season

[John B]

Spurs will trade Murray next season

I doubt Pops trade a defensive guy. Pops always want to run that 3 guards and next year will be the best 3 guards combination he ever had, no defensive liability whatsoever, and not even counting Demar who can also play guard - that's 4 guards and a 6'11" bully try to stop that.

[Slippy]

Trade could end up being the best option . White on current form is cementing his spot as starting PG which leaves Dj as backup or defensive stopper role off the bench. His outside shooting isn't good enough to supplant Forbes so extra mins is limited. Spurs could fetch more value off a trade and fill a glaring need (sf) at same time.

[Pavlov]

Eh, looks like either could start at this point with the Forbes/DDR/Gay/LMA lineup.

I think White especially would be a nightmare for opposing teams off the bench, but who knows how DJ is going to develop?

[John B]

Trade could end up being the best option . White on current form is cementing his spot as starting PG which leaves Dj as backup or defensive stopper role off the bench. His outside shooting isn't good enough to supplant Forbes so extra mins is limited. Spurs could fetch more value off a trade and fill a glaring need (sf) at same time.

My take before, but seeing the Dubs imploding, and Pops showing that 3 points-chucking is not really the best way to go, but rather ball-movement, finding the best shot and team defense, 5 players switching - that's Murray with the length and size. Our 2nd unit is clicking with Mills, Forbes, Belli, Davis and Poeltl, moving the ball, finding the best shot. Now, put White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMA - everybody can pass and penetrate. White and Walker can shoot. If Murray can get that consistent outside shot, it's history. Nope I wouldn't trade Murray for a prototype SF. I'd get that somehow, or even better - Metu is that and we have 3 picks next year, Pau expiring. Too many ways to get the prototype SF without trading Murray. Just imo.

[Pavlov]

White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMA

Unless someone else becomes a volume three point shooter, you're gonna still need Forbes and Gay in there.

[Slippy]

My take before, but seeing the Dubs imploding, and Pops showing that 3 points-chucking is not really the best way to go, but rather ball-movement, finding the best shot and team defense, 5 players switching - that's Murray with the length and size. Our 2nd unit is clicking with Mills, Forbes, Belli, Davis and Poeltl, moving the ball, finding the best shot. Now, put White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMA - everybody can pass and penetrate. White and Walker can shoot. If Murray can get that consistent outside shot, it's history. Nope I wouldn't trade Murray for a prototype SF. I'd get that somehow, or even better - Metu is that and we have 3 picks next year, Pau expiring. Too many ways to get the prototype SF without trading Murray. Just imo.

ya that five can pass /create but spacing is the killer . Sagg off DJ or Demar every single time on offense.

[Slippy]

Also whatever hope we had of Demar progressin/growing to a consistent outside threat ain't happening. Chip hasn't being able to work that magic. Demar's outside shot seems to be regressing on what was an already shaky looking shot.

[John B]

ya that five can pass /create but spacing is the killer . Sagg off DJ or Demar every single time on offense.

I'm working on the assumption that Murray is hitting 1000 3's every day . But no need for volume 3 point shooter. The Beautiful Game didn't really have a volume 3 point shooter, just who gets the best shot. TP learned to take 3 point shots when the ball found him open, and was not a liability. I expect the same from Murray.