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will bump this thread after July 1st. We'll then see the results
So, the consensus around here is that Spurs got their pushed in with the Toronto trade. But did they really???
I beg to differ, at least to date.
Spurs are increasingly likely to win more games this year despite a damn near complete roster turnover, and might have a better seed. Toronto is likely to lose more games, cannot lose another one or they will, and have a lower seed despite the clear upgrade in talent.
Playoff picture in the East no longer has to go through Lebron so Toronto is likely to make it to the conference finals but they don't seem to be a much more likely candidate to win the whole thing. Spurs still have to get by arguably the most talented team in modern sports history.
Sooo, addition by subtraction? Yes, they might have had a better record had someone played more but that person is what he is.
Nevermind that neither player we traded to Toronto might not still be in Toronto next year yet Poeltl at minimum looks to be a longtime Spur, and I say it's a push at best. Also, we still don't know which player or players end up coming our way due to the pick we get out of the trade.
will bump this thread after July 1st. We'll then see the results
Spurs got their pushed in in the sense that they should have gotten more for Leonard. They did pretty well in the sense that Pop had a plan for Poeltl and DeRozan, and he has given the team a higher ceiling than they would have had in most scenarios. I don't think PATFO are good trade negotiators, though they obviously did really well with the Hill trade. I think it's important to separate real offers from fantasy offers, so saying the team should have held out for Embiid or Simmons doesn't make sense. But giving up Green and not getting OG or Siakam was a big deal, and even if West would never have included both lotto picks with Harris, getting something else as compensation along with Tobias and one of those picks still seemed realistic.
I also criticize the team not going for that rumored third star regardless of what happened to Leonard. I guess I understand not wanting to give up Murray. But if they could have picked up Walker or Beal or whomever, adding that to Harris and Aldridge might have made the Spurs a darkhorse team. Something like Harris, 12 and 13 for Leonard and 18, then doing something like 13 and Green for Kemba, then drafting Lonnie or Mikal Bridges at 12 was one of my great hopes. It would have been interesting if they had gone that route, but I really don't think they should be regretting passing up on the Lakers' right now.
I can't think any positive about this trade for the Spurs side.
Anyway, if some fans think "Spurs won this move/Owned Raptors/DeMar>>>>Kawhi/we got a pick/whatever"...it's fine. Being in denial helps people to protect themselves by refusing to accept the truth about this trade.
Just Kawhi? Lowry played 58 games this season, Kawhi 54. Their entire roster was plagued by injuries all season.
This game vs Hornets was just 3rd time in the whole season.
Last edited by YGWHI; 03-25-2019 at 12:14 AM.
Kawhi isn't injured. He just doesn't play.
I don't know what people expect could have happened. Kawhi ed the team but good and they had few options. If he'd at least played along with the idea of sticking with the team that traded for him, more could have been had. But he didn't. him.
That said, what trades were out there? Last summer people were talking Boston, but we now know Ainge is a lunatic who overrates what he has and wouldn't put a basket together of the meager talent he has. Philadelphia's basket, from what we know, was pretty lame. , people were even suggesting trying to pull Fultz, a dude they dumped for almost literally . Los Angeles's players now look terrible, especially after injury and personality concerns.
This leaves Toronto. Tons of people were wanting Siakam, which wasn't going to happen for a player that might leave them after this year. Tons wanted Anunoby, who looks pretty bad. The fact that the Spurs pulled a player of DDR's caliber while getting what looks like a very serviceable, mobile center, who can block shots and bang around, is pretty ing great. They got a semi-star for the utter disaster that is Kawhi Leonard. You may dislike what DeRozan can bring to the game, but you. I'm frustrated at times, too, but he gives this team a dynamic dimension they wouldn't have otherwise. What's wrong is this board's completely idiotic presumptions about what was possible. Also, blaming the wrong people. This is 100% Kawhi Leonard's fault. The fact that the Spurs got a compe ive team regardless is pretty good.
If he's injured or not has nothing to do with my post.
He said Raptors would get #1 seed if he would have played more. I said they could have had a better record if the rest of guys wouldn't have missed many games too.
I mean if he missed 20 and Lowry just 10 or FVV would have bee healthy...they could get #1.
spurs should've moved kawhi for kemba.
and then could've moved murray for an above average 3&D SF.
Walker is a free agent. It's plausible he does not resign for whomever he was traded too. Raptors took the deal and made further trades for a year ride to the finals.
This.
And I don't think we're in denial. DeMar, Poeltl and a #1 are pretty good, given what KL did to kill the suitors. We definitely win the trade if Toronto doesn't win the le and Leonard bolts, both of which seem more likely than not. All those saying we should have hung onto Danny, were those telling us how washed up he was last year.
But, yeah, the loss of Leonard made the Spurs worse. But once that was inevitable, Spurs did OK. Not great, but that, again, was Leonard/Uncle's fault.
The winner is still TBD, depending on how this summer shakes out, but I'll be honest, I thought the pre-summer eval would be a more clear Toronto ass-kicking.
As for the 3 times on 74 games that they've had their rotation of choice available, I'm wondering how many of those were JUST minus Kahwi and his loaded diaper management.
We shouldn't talk about "loaded" diapers while DeRozan is still on our fav team roster...He could take this concept to a new dimension in these playoffs.
I see what you are trying to do here, and I am agreeing with you in the sense that we are better this year, but TOR will probably make the conf. finals, and we will not. With Kawhi we were contenders, without him we are not. It is what it is, he is not healthy and who knows how he is physically in 5 years from now. So I get it, the Spurs were not that excited to give him the supermax AND he plays ISO ball AND was not a leader. But he is one of BEST in this league, if not the BEST. I would take Kawhi over pretty much anyone right now.
you mean how you took gargling Kawhi's nutsack to a new dimension?
Right, that Kawhi Leonard was among the best in the League. But my post deals with the last Kawhi we had which was 9 games Kawhi. As such, my point remains. Spurs made a push trade at worst. If Kawhitter does Kawhitter things and leaves Toronto like many expect, Spurs won the trade hands down.
Can't judge the trade off of fictional Kawhi. We got 9 game Kawhi. And he ed us on getting anything else.
I did not read your post that closely, I will admit to that. But really, your point is moot. In your sense we won the trade because Toronto lost the trade? That's silly. We both lose the trade. Argue all you want about a 9 game Kawhi, we are a better team with him in the roster. Not sure what happens 5 years from now, but this season we are.
Uh, no. Who needs Mr. can’t wipe his own ass, his drama, and his group? If he’s not playing, he’s worthless, and he wouldn’t be playing. His group made that clear. 0 game Kawhi.
I think it's still yet to be determined how good or bad this trade was for the Spurs. In the short term, if Kawhi was on the roster with Danny, this team would be contenders but still probably not enough to beat the warriors. We still have to see what happens with Toronto's pick and Poetl is going to be a solid player for us for years to come. I expect his offense to develop and his defense will only get better. DDR has surprised me with his playmaking skills and his defense has been considerably better in 2019. If he can only do a better job of playing within the team concepts and not try to be Kobe Bryant, he could consistently be solid for us.
As far as KL, I've been saying this all year but he doesn't look right and there is a lot of unknowns regarding his long-term health. He's still a top 10 player but in 2017, people were saying he might be the best player in the league but he hasn't looked like it this year. Also, I fully expect for him to leave Toronto in the off season even if they make the finals. His people seem determined to get him in LA and since they purposely sabotage the relationship with the Spurs, leaving the Raptors is nothing for them.
Lastly, I think the Spurs have done a great job filling in the roster with young talent. Don't sleep on Walker next year and I fully expect him to be in the rotation. I'm also high on Metu but he may need another year in Austin.
Metu's not even a good g-league player. Someone with his length and athleticism should be shooting better than 51% from the field, and probably shouldn't be out rebounded by like 3 guys on his own team, including g-league lifer Brimah, and 6'8" Ben Moore.
The Situation:
After some talks with Leonard, it was clear for the Spurs and everybody on the League, that he was not willing to play another minute for the Spurs. Unlike the Butler or Davis Situation, there was no possibility anymore to showcase that Leonard is healthy.
Remember that his health was an issue in the Summer. So he had to be traded and everybody in the League knew. The best possible offer they could have gotten, where from the Lakers at that time. But because the Spurs have a Vendetta against the Lakers running, this was off the Table. Everybody else knew, that Leonard is a Rental at best and the Spurs are a little desperate, so why give up much? At this point, PATFO had to evaluate what the best possible offer could be.
Possible Trade Partners:
As i mentioned the Lakers were quickly of the table. Besides them the Celtics had some interest and some other teams. But none of them were willing to give much, cause they knew that the Spurs had to trade and Leonard could be rental at best.
His mindset was on L.A. (Clippers or Lakers), which made it for everybody else a risky move.
So the only hope the Spurs had at this moment was for another team that also was a little desperate and willing to give up some Value.
Which leads us to the Raptors.
Their Situation was between a le Run or Rebuild after Lowry/DeRozean Choked again in the Playoffs. The Young Talent was there and known as the bench mob during the regular season, but not ready for the playoffs. Ibaka and Valanciunas are good complementary players but neither are a 1st or 2nd options. So they had at this point fired Dwayne Casey (who in my opinion made big mistakes in the Playoffs against Cleveland) and the hope with a new coach that it would be better.
So we have now 2 Teams in the Summer who have the incentive to do something in the summer.
Before the Trade:
Some Clarification: Noone knows what happend during the negotiations besides rumors which i cannot verify. So we do not know, which players were offered by the Raptors or which were requested by the Spurs.
So what i try is to make an objective view of what was the Trade itself and what were the possibilities.
Step 1:
The Swap between DeRozean and Leonard i hope is obvious so i wont delve into that. What about the rest.
Step 2:
Also i believe that Danny Green was for some specific reasons an obvious choice to be part of the trade.
- His Contract was in his last year, which made it interesting for the Raptors. If the bargain with Leonard does not pan out, they have 31 Million $ of the Books and a core of young Talent with which they can rebuild. (Midseason they got all-in with the MARC Gasol Trade). At that time it was believed that the Bench Mob (including Poeltl at the time), could easily be a Playoff Team in the East by themselves. Adding Valanciunas, Ibaka and Lowry which than would only have one year left they are still a good team.
- He is a valuable Rotation Player with more experience than any of the young guys on the Roster. Which can help in the playoffs.
- He does not create problems in the Lockerroom.
- From the big Contracts that the Spurs had his was the easiest to move. The other Players with Big Contracts where at that time Gasol 16 Mil, Mills 11,5 Mil, Gay 10 Mil, Bertans 7 Mil, Belinelli 6 Mil. I did not include Aldridge, cause he definitly would never have been traded. We can agree that Gasol is overpaid and useless (as we have seen), Mills overpaid for what he brings to the table, Gay was traded away from Toronto by Ujiri and compared to Green has less Value overall (remember that Gay plays meshes well with the spurs but everywhere else he was a problem, even though a good scorer), Bertans and Belinelli though cheaper dont move the needle for a Contender as the Raptors see themselves.
These are the main reasons why i believe that Green was obvious.
Step 3:
So what is left is to see what you can get back for Green and Leonard besides DeRozean.
Assumption 1: Spurs want to have on of the good young Players. The Group consists of: Anunoby, Siakam, Poeltl, Wright and Van Vleet (which contract was extended shortly before the Trade).
Assumption 2: Spurs and Raptors know the Value of those Players and both know what they want to get or to give up.
Assumption 3: Spurs want to get someone they actually need.
Starting with Assumption 3 i take VanVleet and Writh of the table, cause the Spurs have in Murray a good PG so even to thin on that position the need was not great.
Assumption 1: All three Players would fill a need for the Spurs. With losing Leonard you can get a young solid Defender in Anunoby at multiple positions. Siakam is a valuable hustle Player which match the Spurs philosophy. At that time it was not a given that he has the breakout season and if he can mantain that level for years to come. Poeltl who as a raptor already has proven to be a good rim protector and could relieve Aldridge a little from his responsibilities as a Center and let him fall back to his natural PF position.
I know many here wanted one of the first two, but i believe that Anunoby was not really an option. Yes he is a good Defender and this year would have been an asset, but those kind of Defenders are not as hard to come by as you might think. Also it is easier to teach defense than offense. When i think of Players like Trevor Ariza or Tony Allen, these kind of Players have the right mindset and effort to be a good Defender. Ask Kobe Bryant what he thinks of Tony Allen. I believe those Players are often overlooked and can be found for a cheapter value on the market. Also compared to Poeltl you cant teach a 7 Footer. Which is still a commodity.
So it comes down down to Poeltl and Siakam, and here i can only speculate. Either Raptors were not willing to give Siakam up or Spurs really wanted Poeltl. Either Way the Spurs would end up with a solid young talent. So you could not really go wrong here.
Just dont tell me, you already knew that Siakam could be the player he at least was this season. And he is not at an Allstar level as some already claim. His stats prove him to have a good season, not to be an Allstar.
The Trade:
In the end Poeltl became the player to be traded along a 1st Round Pick in which Spurs time and time again they are good at drafting and developing player.
So who won than the Trade?
I have a seperate answer for both teams.
The Spurs .....
in my opinion already won. They got what they could get and both players have proven to be good in their role. Poeltl battled his way into the starting lineup and DeRozean had a good season despite all the negative comments i read here about him. Yes he is still a choker, but i think in combination with LMA it can work. Both are #1 and #2 option at the same time. If they run with the Hot hand like against Boston, it can be a winning startegy. If they dont like against the Rockets, where DeRozean was choking hard, they will lose. They can cancel each other slumps out if they are willing to give up the ball on a bad shooting night. Also the Bench of the Spurs have proven to be good enough to hold their fort or even take advantage of the opposing benches.
DeRozean is also in his prime so the next two years are the best years the spurs have out of him and than they just can decide not to resign him if he declines.
Poeltl on the other hand can be a long term asset and if healthy can be a beast on the rim and the boards. Having a good Defending Center that actually can guard on the perimeter is gold.
The Raptors lose ....
if they choke again in the Playoffs. I dont mean that they actually have to win a le to have success. But if they fizzle out like against the Cavs last year, than this is a huge disappointment and guarantees that Leonard leaves.
The Raptors lose ....
if they dont reach the Eastern Conference Finals and Leonard leaves.
The Raptors win ....
if Leonard resignes and stays the Superstar he is for years to come. In this situation it does not matter if this season was a success.
The Raptors win ....
if they at least reach the Eastern Conference Finals regardless if Leonard stays. (Just dont choke there 4-0)
This is my humble opinion were i already know many of you readied your insults in disagreement but i only reflect what i see and draw conculsions.
Have a nice day.
Last edited by Shakril; 03-26-2019 at 04:02 PM.
All depends on poodles develoment really and what the spurs do with these two picks in 2019
Danny Green's shooting 46% from 3 on 6 attempts per game. How could they throw his expiring contract in the deal while we have to watch that piece of Mills every game?
Danny Green played like garbage in the previous three seasons, and was only in the trade because he opted in. Someone else would have been included, had he not.
Most Toronto media thought Raptors would have to give half team in the trade...
But PATFO didn't play it well
If Kawhi was more than a 1-year rental, you might have a point. If he bails for Cali, not so much. There won't be any consensus until we see what Kawhi does in the offseason, and what the Spurs get with the pick.
Sort of makes the rest of the discussion moot.
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