OT: Is Kawhi kind of a choker?

[apalisoc_9]

Its gonna be remebered as an all time great run.

Give it up Mid. You're just gonna grow older quicker trying to explain kawhi is a "choker"

[midnightpulp]

Its gonna be remebered as an all time great run.

Give it up Mid. You're just gonna grow older quicker trying to explain kawhi is a "choker"

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

[LkrFan]

Choke on this mid:

[Kawhitstorm]

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

LMAO, muphucka out here contradicting himself claiming point in the 4th quarter don't count any more than the rest of the game while glorifying Dirk scoring 9 point (transition buckets & a single 1-on-1 layup without getting blitzed)

Kawhi ended game 4 in the 3rd quarter but I guess that doesn't count b/c it wasn't in the "magical" 4th quarter

Btw, LeBrat might as well have sat out the '11 series & Jason Terry hit the daggers to closeout the series.

[midnightpulp]

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a le, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8

Guess I'll get a Kobe burn in. He's actually never had a le run of an on-off over +13.

Kawhi, '19: +17.7. He was -2 in the raw +/- tonight, so I expect a drop after tonight that likely puts him behind Dirk in the stat. But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

And I reiterate, this is only since '01, and Kawhi ranks 7th/8th in a pretty reliable impact stat. I don't see all time great run here aside from the cute narrative that he brought a Canadian city a le in a sport they've never won anything in before.

[apalisoc_9]

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

Give it up man. People will remeber this playoff run as Kawhi locking Giannis, Hitting Game 7 Game winner, scoring the third most points in a playoff run ever, winning finals MVP.

Even if someone played better in a game 6.

Its just the way its going to be remebered.

[midnightpulp]

LMAO, muphucka out here contradicting himself claiming point in the 4th quarter don't count any more than the rest of the game while glorifying Dirk scoring 9 point (transition buckets & a single 1-on-1 layup without getting blitzed)

Kawhi ended game 4 in the 3rd quarter but I guess that doesn't count b/c it wasn't in the "magical" 4th quarter

Doesn't matter. Kawhi was inefficient in both games 5 and 6, getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala and letting KL1 and Siakam hold his hand. And if you read the thread, dip , you'll see that I acknowledge Kawhi is a monster up until game 5, where Matt Barnes and the like are known to outplay him thereafter.

Nice fanboy avatar . May want to update that my team section, though.

[midnightpulp]

Give it up man. People will remeber this playoff run as Kawhi locking Giannis, Hitting Game 7 Game winner, scoring the third most points in a playoff run ever, winning finals MVP.

Even if someone played better in a game 6.

Its just the way its going to be remebered.

using cute media narratives over stats and logic. You're basically a Kobe fan who just happened to pick another player.

[Kawhitstorm]

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a le, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8

Guess I'll get a Kobe burn in. He's actually never had a le run of an on-off over +13.

Kawhi, '19: +17.7. He was -2 in the raw +/- tonight, so I expect a drop after tonight that likely puts him behind Dirk in the stat. But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

And I reiterate, this only since '01, and Kawhi ranks 7th/8th in a pretty reliable impact stat. I don't see all time great run here aside from the cute narrative that he brought a Canadian city a le in a sport they've never won anything in before.

Terry/Kidd/Chandler had a better BPM than Dork meahwhile Kawhi has double the BPM than the next closest.

[Kawhitstorm]

Doesn't matter. Kawhi was inefficient in both games 5 and 6, getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala and letting KL1 and Siakam hold his hand. And if you read the thread, dip , you'll see that I acknowledge Kawhi is a monster up until game 5, where Matt Barnes and the like are known to outplay him thereafter.

Nice fanboy avatar . May want to update that my team section, though.

cRaptors would have been 2nd round fodder if Kawhi didn't take promise land while holding their hands.

Too bad the strategy to blitz Kawhi after he annihilated them didn't work like it did for Doc in '15 b/c Van Vleet can actually shoot unlike Porker & Siakam decided to make corner 3s for a change but I guess Kawhi should have been forcing shots over double teams like Kirby as if it was 2008.

Proceed with your strawman argument to keep you warm b/c Kawhi has taken a dump on ST.

[midnightpulp]

Terry/Kidd/Chandler had a better BPM than Dork meahwhile Kawhi has double the BPM than the next closest.

BPM. That's just raw box plus/minus. On-off is MUCH better.

There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

This is why Duncan was always an on-off monster. Digging up 2004 level stats to try and make an argument. If the +/- isn't adjusted, it's basically worthless. Unfortunately, BBallRef doesn't do RAPM.

[midnightpulp]

Proceed with your strawman argument to keep you warm b/c Kawhi has taken a dump on ST.

No, you are strawmanning. This is what I said:

The whole game matters. 4th quarter points aren't worth more than 1st quarter points. You're being results oriented. I've always said that if a player scores around or over his average on what is considered an efficient percentage, he was "clutch," regardless of whether or not he missed a 4th quarter shot or freethrow.

Tell me, did Kiwi meet his season/playoff averages efficiently over the last two closeout games? Yes or no? And granted, there's two sides of the ball, and 'phew let his ass get outplayed by Andre Igoudala. , Durant outplayed him in game 5 and he was only on the floor for 10 minutes . That's to be expected, though. Durant has always been Kiwi's daddy.

[Kawhitstorm]

Tell me, did Kiwi meet his season/playoff averages efficiently over the last two closeout games? Yes or no? And granted, there's two sides of the ball, and 'phew let his ass get outplayed by Andre Igoudala. , Durant outplayed him in game 5 and he was only on the floor for 10 minutes . That's to be expected, though. Durant has always been Kiwi's daddy.

Watch the defensive strategies of the Duds after he cooked them in Gm 4 & get back at me. After the Raptors rained 3s in Gm 3 the Duds decided not to blitz & got torched by Kawhi. In Gm 5, they decided to blitz & Kawhi gave up the ball before eventually forcing shots when Siakam/Danny couldn't make a corner 3 to save their lives. Tonight he let the other players cook & took only 16 shots.

Doc Rivers did the same shyt after Kawhi torched the Clippers in Gm 3/4 & Danny was the only shooter in the starting line but he was in a horrific slump. Kawhi proceeded to force shots when the shooters couldn't loosen the defense & we all know how that turned out.

[midnightpulp]

Watch the defensive strategies of the Duds after he cooked them in Gm 4 & get back at me. After the Raptors rained 3s in Gm 3 the Duds decided not to blitz & got torched by Kawhi. In Gm 5, they decided to blitz & Kawhi gave up the ball before eventually forcing shots when Siakam/Danny couldn't make a corner 3 to save their lives. Tonight he let the other players cook & took only 16 shots.

Like other players have never dealt with "defensive strategies" before . Quit semen shielding for your hero and just take the L that this wasn't some Jordan level all time great run that will be remembered for generations. It was a solid, competent superstar run with a couple of shaky Finals closeout games. You're spinning like a Kirby fan when they tried to make arguments for his transcendent greatness that was largely based on narrative and selective memory.

[apalisoc_9]

Mid no amount of arguing is going to take away the fact that Kawhi with one leg won FMVP and a championship

[Kawhitstorm]

Like other players have never dealt with "defensive strategies" before . Quit semen shielding for your hero and just take the L that this wasn't some Jordan level all time great run that will be remembered for generations. It was a solid, competent superstar run with a couple of shaky Finals closeout games. You're spinning like a Kirby fan when they tried to make arguments for his transcendent greatness that was largely based on narrative and selective memory.

The weakest part of his game is his playmaking thus teams are always going to resort to blitzing him if they have no answers unless the secondary playmakers & shooters are cooking. When his teammates are doing a competent job then there are no answers for him even without a superstar teammate nor defensive specialists to shield him like Curry/Dork. Dude finished with the 3rd most total point in a postseason run on a better efficiency than anyone in the top 10.

[midnightpulp]

Mid no amount of arguing is going to take away the fact that Kawhi with one leg won FMVP and a championship

now he's on one leg.

And I'm not arguing that he won a FMVP and a le. That's in' obvious. This wasn't an all-time great run.

[Kawhitstorm]

now he's on one leg.

And I'm not arguing that he won a FMVP and a le. That's in' obvious. This wasn't an all-time great run.

Dork didn't have a better postseason run than Kawhi especially considering Kawhi had to guard Butler/Giannis for his team to have a chance. If Dork's run was an "all-time great" then so is Kawhi's.

[midnightpulp]

The weakest part of his game is his playmaking thus teams are always going to resort to blitzing him if they have no answers unless the secondary playmakers & shooters are cooking. When his teammates are doing a competent job then there are no answers for him even without a superstar teammate nor defensive specialists to shield him like Curry/Dork. Dude finished with the 3rd most total point in a postseason run on a better efficiency than anyone in the top 10 & did it while playing on a bum knee.

ulative stats. Play more games, score more points. Efficiency stats aren't one to one, either, since everyone has a high TS% these days. League average TS% in 2005 for instance was .529 vs .560 today. Chucking 3s in a league that doesn't allow defense anymore tends to raise that stat.

And "He was playing hurt!" More Kobe/Jordan level myth building garbage. Everyone at this time in the season is banged up to a degree. He played, therefore he's healthy. Players like Durant are injured.

[Kawhitstorm]

But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

TOSB Haslem was Looney status in '11 although he DID outplay Dork in '06 along w/ Shimmy Walker

Iggy at least can score in transition with the best of them & has the ability to have outlier games from 3.

[TimDunkem]

this thread worse than beisbol

It's close...But beisbol is definitely worse. At least this thread was entertaining.

[Kawhitstorm]

ulative stats. Play more games, score more points. Efficiency stats aren't one to one, either, since everyone has a high TS% these days. League average TS% in 2005 for instance was .529 vs .560 today. Chucking 3s in a league that doesn't allow defense anymore tends to raise that stat.

The guy in 2nd place in non other than '18 LeBrat who supposedly had his best scoring postseason run last season.
Enlighten me how last season's TS% pails in comparison to this season.

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points"

[i'm_still_beta]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

[midnightpulp]

Dork didn't have a better postseason run than Kawhi especially considering Kawhi had to guard Butler/Giannis for his team to have a chance. If Dork's run was an "all-time great" then so is Kawhi's.

Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

[Kawhitstorm]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

According to Mid, Jordan is a choker b/c of the '96 Finals.