OT: Is Kawhi kind of a choker?

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dork was checking the MVP when he was living at the FT line against OKC.........but Wade was the one that got whistles.

[FrostKing]

IMO

Injuries considered: Heat over Warriors. So I rank Dirk's performance higher and it is honestly coin toss so worthy of the difference maker

[Kawhitstorm]

IMO

Injuries considered: Heat over Warriors. So I rank Dirk's performance higher and it is honestly coin toss so worthy of the difference maker

Are we assuming that LeBrat actually shows up to the series? That Heat team had a shyt supporting cast outside of the "Big 3".

[FrostKing]

2019 Leonard would guard 2013 Dirk and I think the German would get a field goal

[i'm_still_beta]

Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

[FrostKing]

Are we assuming that LeBrat actually shows up to the series? That Heat team had a shyt supporting cast outside of the "Big 3".

Head to head I have those Heat winning. This is big hypotethical with injuries

[midnightpulp]

The guy in 2nd place in non other than '18 LeBrat who supposedly had his best scoring postseason run last season.
Enlighten me how last season's TS% pails in comparison to this season.

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points"

Are you this re ed (I forget, you are)? You're bringing up a ulative stat. Of course Kawhi is going to have a lot of post-season points compared to the past when he played 24 games. Many le runs don't beyond 20. And for a long time, only the top 8 teams made the playoffs, so there was no first round. Also, the first round used to be best of 5. Citing that stat as some evidence of "greatness" is useless.

Why don't we look at PPG/100? Jordan's CAREER playoff PPG/100 was 43.3. Kiwi's PPG/100 in his "historic run" was 39.5, and will drop after tonight to probably 38.

Again, citing efficiency via TS vs, past players is meaningless because this is the most efficient era in history because of the proliferation of the 3 point shot. Of course a player who's played in the last 5 years is going to be more efficient on paper than a player in the 1980s when teams only took like 6 threes per game. It's like citing Wilt's RPG vs. today's players.

[midnightpulp]

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

Yeah, this era is really known for elite defense, individual or otherwise . The .560 league wide TS really shows how hard it is to succeed against modern defenses.

[Kawhitstorm]

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

Durant was a shyt defender in '11. That team was wet behind the ears & Ibaka got cooked biting on every pump fake. Besides, Kidd/Marion/Chandler put the clamps on Westbrook/Snake.

[i'm_still_beta]

Yeah, this era is really known for elite defense, individual or otherwise . The .560 league wide TS really shows how hard it is to succeed against modern defenses.

Being guarded by Iggy, Klay, Dray is the same as by Haslem, Bosh and Joel Anthony.

[TimDunkem]

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points"

Sounds like Spurs basketball these days.

[midnightpulp]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

Yes, every all time great has choked at one time or another. Kawhi's MO as the 1st option, and still his MO, is monster over opening 3 or 4 games and then fade. He's had considerably more bad games 5,6,7s than good games.

[FrostKing]

Do the Heat dance on the sidelines pumping up opponent?

[Kawhitstorm]

Are you this re ed (I forget, you are)? You're bringing up a ulative stat. Of course Kawhi is going to have a lot of post-season points compared to the past when he played 24 games. Many le runs don't beyond 20. And for a long time, only the top 8 teams made the playoffs, so there was no first round. Also, the first round used to be best of 5. Citing that stat as some evidence of "greatness" is useless.

Why don't we look at PPG/100? Jordan's CAREER playoff PPG/100 was 43.3. Kiwi's PPG/100 in his "historic run" was 39.5, and will drop after tonight to probably 38.

Jordan attempted 160 more shots despite playing 2 LESS games for a single postseason run.

Again, citing efficiency via TS vs, past players is meaningless because this is the most efficient era in history because of the proliferation of the 3 point shot. Of course a player who's played in the last 5 years is going to be more efficient on paper than a player in the 1980s when teams only took like 6 threes per game. It's like citing Wilt's RPG vs. today's players.

Again, care to explain why Kawhi was just as prolific as LeBron was last post-season despite actually having to guard guys like Butler/Giannis? My bad I forgot 2018 was 20 years ago.

[midnightpulp]

Jordan attempted 160 more shots despite playing 2 LESS games for a single postseason run.

Do you realize the 3 ball wasn't that important in Jordan's era? He only averaged 3.2 3PA/100 over his playoff career. Kiwi averages 5.9 and averaged 7.8 this year. Jordan played in a different era, so there's no way he'll be able to match the efficiency of Leonard since his PPS suffers on account of not taking as many 3s, which are the second most efficient choice in basketball. This fact goes over your head for some reason. Kawhi's efficiency stats vs. players of that era don't mean anything.

Again, care to explain why Kawhi was just as prolific as LeBron was last post-season despite actually having to guard guys like Butler/Giannis? My bad I forgot 2018 was 20 years ago.

Again, my point is that elite players from the past 5 years will dominate some arbitrary list made by only you of players who scored the most points on the highest efficiency because this era is abnormally efficient. In any event, let's see how Kawhi's PP/100 plus TS% fares against other elite players who had le runs over the last few years.

Leonard: PP/100: 39.5, .621 TS. Will take a hit when tonight's game is factored.
Curry, 2016: 36.9, .607. 2017: 38, .659 TS.
Lebron, 2016: 35.6, .585 TS. He's had much better runs to reach the Finals, but we can't count those.
Durant, 2017: 38.4, .683 TS, 2018: 37.4, .604 TS.

So, um, Leonard is basically on par with other superstar runs in the "efficient era," but yet, this run is "historically great?"

[Reck]

Pop's ty management cost the Spurs a great franchise player to leave. His heavy restrictions on players does not allow them to be themselves.

Ujiri basically gave this team to Leonard and he made diamonds with ty role players. If you can even call them that.

[i'm_still_beta]

Pop's ty management cost the Spurs a great franchise player to leave. His heavy restrictions on players does not allow them to be themselves.

Ujiri basically gave this team to Leonard and he made diamonds with ty role players. If you can even call them that.

Raptors have great role players. Can't argue with first statement though

[midnightpulp]

Here's an example of how the TS stat punishes non-3 point shooting players. This is one of the greatest games in Spurs history that actual fans of the team and not just Kawhi fanboys will remember fondly. https://www.basketball-reference.com...305150LAL.html

Duncan played as about as perfectly as a big man could. The entire Lakers defense was focused on him and he scored 37 points on 16-25 shooting for a .640 raw FG. But yet his TS was "only" .659. A 3 point chucker can go 11-25 and 4/4 on FTs and have a .691 TS.

"Standards" were also mentioned. That Duncan game is a good standard of an all-time great game during an all-time great run. The Lakers tied up the series and almost came back from 25 down in game 5 to win, a Robert Horry inch away. Spurs fans were slitting their wrists after that game and feeling that if the Lakers can easily comeback from 25 against a Spurs team that still hasn't gotten over their primal fear of the Lakers, then the natural course of events will be Lakers blowing out the Spurs in game 6 at Staples and then breaking the Spurs hearts in game 7.

I don't care that the Lakers were tired from their 3 peat, Kobe/Shaq feud, whatever. They were the most feared team on the planet with the most feared player on the planet who looked poised to once again break the Spurs spirit. And Duncan, with not much of a supporting cast at the time, walked into Staples and extracted the collective Lakers soul. Kiwi has nothing comparable on his resume. lucky game 7 winners against the Sixers while scoring 41 points on 39 shots. He gets outplayed by Andre Igoudala in game 6 on the road against a team down two of its top 4 players.

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

[Kawhitstorm]

Do you realize the 3 ball wasn't that important in Jordan's era? He only averaged 3.2 3PA/100 over his playoff career. Kiwi averages 5.9 and averaged 7.8 this year. Jordan played in a different era, so there's no way he'll be able to match the efficiency of Leonard since his PPS suffers on account of not taking as many 3s, which are the second most efficient choice in basketball. This fact goes over your head for some reason. Kawhi's efficiency stats vs. players of that era don't mean anything.

Uhhhh, so you're telling me taking 3 more threes is going to cancel out taking a 160 shots while playing 2 less games in a SINGLE playoff run?

Again, my point is that elite players from the past 5 years will dominate some arbitrary list made by only you of players who scored the most points on the highest efficiency because this era is abnormally efficient. In any event, let's see how Kawhi's PP/100 plus TS% fares against other elite players who had le runs over the last few years.

Leonard: PP/100: 39.5, .621 TS. Will take a hit when tonight's game is factored.
Curry, 2016: 36.9, .607. 2017: 38, .659 TS.
Lebron, 2016: 35.6, .585 TS. He's had much better runs to reach the Finals, but we can't count those.
Durant, 2017: 38.4, .683 TS, 2018: 37.4, .604 TS.

So, um, Leonard is basically on par with other superstar runs in the "efficient era," but yet, this run is "historically great?"

LMAO, Curry/Durant were playing together w/ two other all-stars & Iggy. How is the is that comparable to Kawhi literally playing 1-on-5 against Philly once Embiid swtiched onto Siakam not to mention Iggy/Draymond/Klay checked the best players?

As far as LeBron, he didn't face a team better than the Sixers/Bucks in his run to the Finals & he also had Kyrie who was a much more dependable wingman than Siakam. Kevin Love & the supporting cast were also raining 3s on the entire Leastern Conference thus LeBron had the lane all to himself. Meanwhile, Van Vleet/Danny were in horrific slumps for a good chunk of the postseason & you had Gasol passing up shots. LeBrat still had a TS significantly lower than Kawhi's b/c of Bismack Biyombo

If Durant had to carry the load Kawhi did his TS would be 55% just like it was in the '16 postseason when he actually had to play defense for 4 quarters but was suddenly better than LeBron b/c he became a hired gun.

[Kawhitstorm]

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

Why didn't Kiwi chuck 35 shots over double teams when his teammates were making shots thus making the Duds pay for loading up. (Do you think Siakam was getting open running off screens or Ibaka getting dunks b/c they were helping off Kiwi?)

If Marc Gasol wasn't sleepwalking then the game wouldn't have been as tight, Kawhi was giving him the ball in 4-on-5 situation & dude wasn't even trying to attack or shoot whatsoever.

You are out here playing spreadsheet legacy like your idol Daryl Morey who I'm pretty sure invited you to the crowfest.

[i'm_still_beta]

z

Here's an example of how the TS stat punishes non-3 point shooting players. This is one of the greatest games in Spurs history that actual fans of the team and not just Kawhi fanboys will remember fondly. https://www.basketball-reference.com...305150LAL.html

Duncan played as about as perfectly as a big man could. The entire Lakers defense was focused on him and he scored 37 points on 16-25 shooting for a .640 raw FG. But yet his TS was "only" .659. A 3 point chucker can go 11-25 and 4/4 on FTs and have a .691 TS.

"Standards" were also mentioned. That Duncan game is a good standard of an all-time great game during an all-time great run. The Lakers tied up the series and almost came back from 25 down in game 5 to win, a Robert Horry inch away. Spurs fans were slitting their wrists after that game and feeling that if the Lakers can easily comeback from 25 against a Spurs team that still hasn't gotten over their primal fear of the Lakers, then the natural course of events will be Lakers blowing out the Spurs in game 6 at Staples and then breaking the Spurs hearts in game 7.

I don't care that the Lakers were tired from their 3 peat, Kobe/Shaq feud, whatever. They were the most feared team on the planet with the most feared player on the planet who looked poised to once again break the Spurs spirit. And Duncan, with not much of a supporting cast at the time, walked into Staples and extracted the collective Lakers soul. Kiwi has nothing comparable on his resume. lucky game 7 winners against the Sixers while scoring 41 points on 39 shots. He gets outplayed by Andre Igoudala in game 6 on the road against a team down two of its top 4 players.

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

Rules set up that way.
And 2003 Duncan > 2019 Kawhi as a player. His playoffs run is also more impressive. 2003 Duncan playoffs run is arguably greatest in nba history.
Kawhi is not goat-candidate, just mvp-level player. And he had great run. Raptors were laughing stock of the league and now they are champions. Team is not the same, they lucked with Warriors injuries, role players deserve lion's share of credit, but Leonard was driving force of the team. He carried team in tough moments, hit clutch shots, didn't shoot team out of games like some other stars, played great defense. He is true superstar-level player.

[midnightpulp]

Uhhhh, so you're telling me taking 3 more threes is going to cancel out taking a 160 shots while playing 2 less games in a SINGLE playoff run?

Yes it will. Take Jordan's 91 run. .524 raw FG vs. Kiwi's raw .492 FG. .385 3 point vs. Kiwi's .386. .845 FT vs. .885 FT. Their raw efficiencies in total are nearly identical. If each player took 20 two point shots, 10 three point shots, and 10 FTs, their respective PPGs would be: 40.96 Jordan, 40.11 Leonard. So why is Jordan's TS over his '91 run .600 vs. .621 for Leonard's 2019 run, even though Jordan is more efficient per raw percentages and PPS (if they take the same number of shots)? Jordan only took 2.8 threes per 100 vs. Kawhi's 7.8 per 100. , Jordan being able to manage a .600 TS in in' 1991 is basically otherworldly, but yeah, you want to sell Kawhi's run as an all-time run in the most efficient era in NBA history. Okay.

LMAO, Curry/Durant were playing together w/ two other all-stars & Iggy. How is the is that comparable to Kawhi literally playing 1-on-5 against Philly once Embiid swtiched onto Siakam not to mention Iggy/Draymond/Klay checked the best players?

As far as LeBron, he didn't face a team better than the Sixers/Bucks in his run to the Finals & he also had Kyrie who was a much more dependable wingman than Siakam. Kevin Love & the supporting cast were also raining 3s on the entire Leastern Conference thus LeBron had the lane all to himself. Meanwhile, Van Vleet/Danny were in horrific slumps for a good chunk of the postseason & you had Gasol passing up shots. LeBrat still had a TS significantly lower than Kawhi's b/c of Bismack Biyombo

If Durant had to carry the load Kawhi did his TS would be 55% just like it was in the '16 postseason when he actually had to play defense for 4 quarters but was suddenly better than LeBron b/c he became a hired gun.

at more Kobe fan level excuse making. "His supporting cast sucked! He's playing 1 on 5 while everyone else is choking. He's playing better teams!" You realize Lowry, a consistent top 10 player in RPM season after season, averaged 19 ppg on an eyepopping .700 TS in the ECF? Kawhi's supporting cast was great. If not, how do the Raps win 58 games last season? A supporting cast doesn't go into Oracle in a Finals game 6 and score what Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, and Ibaka did. He had a solid superstar run with some choking moments that could've been "all-time great chokejob" if not for his supporting cast. If the Raps lost tonight and went on to lose game 7, Kawhi's feet would've been held to the in' inferno.

[Isitjustme?]

Congrats nephew you earned this:*Won ship versus team who lost two of its three top players at crucial moments during series

[midnightpulp]

Why didn't Kiwi chuck 35 shots over double teams when his teammates were making shots thus making the Duds pay for loading up. (Do you think Siakam was getting open running off screens or Ibaka getting dunks b/c they were helping off Kiwi?)

If Marc Gasol wasn't sleepwalking then the game wouldn't have been as tight, Kawhi was giving him the ball in 4-on-5 situation & dude wasn't even trying to attack or shoot whatsoever.

You are out here playing spreadsheet legacy like your idol Daryl Morey who I'm pretty sure invited you to the crowfest.

Like other greats never faced 100 percent focused defenses on stopping them or had teammates who were "sleepwalking." Kawhi isn't special in that case, so quit Kobe-excusing him for not having memorable games 5 and 6, typically games where "all-time greats who are having all-time great runs" put their fingerprint on. Just be happy your hero won another FMVP and another le and move on.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yes it will, dumb . Take Jordan's 91 run. .524 raw FG vs. Kiwi's raw .492 FG. .385 3 point vs. Kiwi's .386. .845 FT vs. .885 FT. Their raw efficiencies in total are nearly identical. If each player took 20 two point shots, 10 three point shots, and 10 FTs, their respective PPGs would be: 40.96 Jordan, 40.11 Leonard.

So, you are literally supporting my claim that Jordan averaged more points per 100 possession b/c he took MORE shots.

"His supporting cast sucked! He's playing 1 on 5 while everyone else is choking. He's playing better teams!" You realize Lowry, a consistent top 10 player in RPM season after season, averaged 19 ppg on an eyepopping .700 TS in the ECF?

Remind me what happened to Lowry when he played against a team that didn't dare him to shoot: https://www.basketball-reference.com...s-raptors.html

Kawhi's supporting cast was great. If not, how do the Raps win 58 games last season? A supporting cast doesn't go into Oracle in a Finals game 6 and score what Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, and Ibaka did. Solid superstar run with some choking moments that could've been "all-time great" if not for his supporting cast.

Tell that to DeFrozen during story time when y'all both cry yourselves to bed.

If the Raps lost tonight and went on to lose game 7, Kawhi's feet would've been held to the in' inferno.

You would have creamed your pants but instead you ended up soiling yourself.