OT: Is Kawhi kind of a choker?

[midnightpulp]

rings aren't created equal... and imo the argument applies if you were a critical component of those teams (not somebody who is a role player that happened to hit a big shot here and there)

Robert Horry was extremely critical in '05. He didn't just hit big spot up shots. He actually took over game 5 like a superstar while Duncan was choking. Horry was the 3rd best player for the Spurs in the Finals. 10.6ppg (in a low offense era) on a .611 TS, second highest behind Manu. And depending on how you evaluate that series, it could be argued Horry was the second best player in the series behind Manu. Duncan was poor offensively by his standards, but obviously the reason he got the Finals MVP nod was because he was drawing so much attention inside, it opened things up for Ginobili and Co. He also nearly matched both Wallaces on the boards.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi absolutely murked LeBron after the series was tied 1-1 going to Miami. You know when kawhi "fades".......

but since that 2014 run, his playoff history has been spotty. Let's see:

Yeah, and the next season as the lead dog, he gets murked by Matt Barnes

That series is where my hate for you Kawhi fanboys began. You blamed those last 3 games he had in the series on everyone and anything but Kiwi. People probably think this thread was made out of saltiness because Kawhi turned his back on the Spurs. No. It's to myth bust the re ed opinions of Kawhi fans (e.g. helmet crew). You guys are the new Al Quobe.

[spurraider21]

Robert Horry was extremely critical in '05. He didn't just hit big spot up shots. He actually took over game 5 like a superstar while Duncan was choking. Horry was the 3rd best player for the Spurs in the Finals. 10.6ppg (in a low offense era) on a .611 TS, second highest behind Manu. And depending on how you evaluate that series, it could be argued Horry was the second best player in the series behind Manu. Duncan was poor offensively by his standards, but obviously the reason he got the Finals MVP nod was because he was drawing so much attention inside, it opened things up for Ginobili and Co. He also nearly matched both Wallaces on the boards.

dude went bonkers in game 5, no doubt.

his scoring in the other 6 games: 7, 12, 6, 5, 8, 15. he averaged 5 rebounds per game for the series in roughly 30mpg.

bowen holding rip hamilton to 39% shooting in a postseason where he otherwise was shooting 48% and had been their leading scorer was more important over the aggregate

[midnightpulp]

dude went bonkers in game 5, no doubt.

his scoring in the other 6 games: 7, 12, 6, 5, 8, 15. he averaged 5 rebounds per game for the series in roughly 30mpg.

bowen holding rip hamilton to 39% shooting in a postseason where he otherwise was shooting 48% and had been their leading scorer was more important over the aggregate

That era and that series, especially between those two teams, was much lower paced. I'm not saying 2005 Horry was AS important to that le as Kawhi was to the 2014 le, but Kawhi was still very much a role player, even if he was a super role player just a hair below star level, kind of like 2003 Ginobili. That said, Lkrfan was still making the basic rings argument. "Kawhi has two ships," as if he was the team leader/or even sidekick both times. He wasn't. Duncan, Manu, and Tony were still above him in the pecking order and the focus of opponent gameplanning.

[spurraider21]

That era and that series, especially between those two teams, was much lower paced. I'm not saying 2005 Horry was AS important to that le as Kawhi was to the 2014 le, but Kawhi was still very much a role player, even if he was a super role player just a hair below star level, kind of like 2003 Ginobili. That said, Lkrfan was still making the basic rings argument. "Kawhi has two ships," as if he was the team leader/or even sidekick both times. He wasn't. Duncan, Manu, and Tony were still above him in the pecking order and the focus of opponent gameplanning.

not in the finals

[midnightpulp]

not in the finals

Tony Parker had the matchup advantages in '07, as well. Is he an all-time great clutch player now? Was he the most important player over the totality of that run? Furthermore, you have to win other series to reach the Finals. Kawhi was a role player offensively for two of those series. It's kind of funny how people are making the same arguments for Kawhi to give his two les "equal weight" as Lakers fans used to make for Kobe in the Duncan comparisons. Sure, the latest ring is definitely a lead dog le, but for the sake of these players comparisons, Kawhi's 2014 ring doesn't have the same stature.

[BD24]

It wasn't an all time great performance, but to pretend anyone else but Kawhi should have been finals MVP is contrarian bull .

28.5 ppg 9.8 rpg 4.2 ast 1.2 blk and 2.0 steals. Fg% wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't awful. Anyone trying to pretend FVV was the FMVP is out of their god damn mind tbh

It was still a of a finals

[midnightpulp]

It wasn't an all time great performance, but to pretend anyone else but Kawhi should have been finals MVP is contrarian bull .

28.5 ppg 9.8 rpg 4.2 ast 1.2 blk and 2.0 steals. Fg% wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't awful. Anyone trying to pretend FVV was the FMVP is out of their god damn mind tbh

It was still a of a finals

Not arguing that at all. Arguing against this is one of the greatest post-season runs in the history of basketball. Some called it top 10 all-time. Maybe if you include narrative (which is more a result of the honeymoon phase than anything), but from a performance perspective, it wasn't. I referenced the on-off stat of the best runs since '01. Kawhi ranks 8th. For reference:

BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a le, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

This stat correlates pretty well with eye-test. Most basketball fans who don't follow the league through twitter and First take acknowledge Duncan's '03 run as the most impressive since the turn of the century. His on-off ranks 2nd for a complete le run. If anyone thinks I'm cherry picking, use BPM (or any stat you like). Kawhi still comes up well short in a list of best runs.

[BD24]

Not arguing that at all. Arguing against this is one of the greatest post-season runs in the history of basketball. Some called it top 10 all-time. Maybe if you include narrative (which is more a result of the honeymoon phase than anything), but from a performance perspective, it wasn't. I referenced the on-off stat of the best runs since '01. Kawhi ranks 8th. For reference:

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a le, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

This stat correlates pretty well with eye-test. Most basketball fans who don't follow the league through twitter and First take acknowledge Duncan's '03 run as the most impressive since the turn of the century. His on-off ranks 2nd for a complete le run. If anyone thinks I'm cherry picking, use BPM (or any stat you like). Kawhi still comes up well short in a list of best runs.

Fair enough. The only series he was holy dominate was against the 76ers. If he could have maintained that for the totality of the playoffs that would have been all time great

[midnightpulp]

Fair enough. The only series he was holy dominate was against the 76ers. If he could have maintained that for the totality of the playoffs that would have been all time great

And an "all-time" great run needs to be capped with a dominating Finals performance, as well. Kawhi was shaky in games 1, 5 and 6. You don't get outplayed by Andre Iguodala in a Finals closeout game during an "all time great run." That '03 Duncan run, for instance, he capped it with a 20/20 game, nearly missing a quad double.

[spurraider21]

Tony Parker had the matchup advantages in '07, as well. Is he an all-time great clutch player now? Was he the most important player over the totality of that run? Furthermore, you have to win other series to reach the Finals. Kawhi was a role player offensively for two of those series. It's kind of funny how people are making the same arguments for Kawhi to give his two les "equal weight" as Lakers fans used to make for Kobe in the Duncan comparisons. Sure, the latest ring is definitely a lead dog le, but for the sake of these players comparisons, Kawhi's 2014 ring doesn't have the same stature.

heh? kawhi didn't have a matchup advantage in 2014, he was up against lebron.

[midnightpulp]

heh? kawhi didn't have a matchup advantage in 2014, he was up against lebron.

The Spurs didn't play one-on-one matchup basketball in that series. Kawhi was basically freelancing and hit a lot of shots created for him or in transition. It's not like he was busting up Lebron in iso sets called for him. They didn't even call plays for Kawhi then. In any event, what's the Philo here? Are you claiming Kawhi's 2014 ring is "lead dog" and has the same stature as rings won by players who were the number 1 or 2 guys on the team? Kawhi indeed gave us a hint of his role to come in the Finals, but over the whole run, he was inbetween role player and star.

[Kawhitstorm]

If Brook Lopez can turn himself into a 35 percent 3 shooter, I don't think Jordan has much problem turning himself into a high percentage 3 point threat.

Your last point confirms what I'm saying. If Jordan took 3 or 4 more 3s per game in lieu of long twos, his TS would be much higher, especially in this era where you can't breathe on perimeter players.

Dad Killer played in the WNBA regulation 3 point line era where Dennis Scott was chucking 3s at the same rate a Klay. After being credited 3 points while shooting long 2s, DK turned into DeMar DeFrozen when the line was extended back to NBA regulation.

Brook Lopez actually had the ability to shoot, the Bucks simply allowed him to showcase his skillset via their 5 out offense. DK didn't need anybody to set him up, he was just a Kirby tier 3 point shooter at best.

In any event, your argument is still with the arbitrary, "Kawhi is 3rd on points scored on X TS percentage," because Kawhi plays in an era with the highest league wide TS in history. As I've shown, Kawhi's points plus efficiency stat over a le run ranks 3rd just in the past 3 years, behind Curry and Durant, further confirming how "not" all-time great this run was. In addition, his on/off ranks now ranks behind Dirk's '11 run, placing it 8th since 2011.

Yeah keep cherry picking just like you pick your nose & butthole while you eat lard in your mom's basement.

Kawhi COMBINATION of efficiency, raw stats & impact numbers is unmatched by any of those during a championship run.

[Kawhitstorm]

And an "all-time" great run needs to be capped with a dominating Finals performance, as well. Kawhi was shaky in games 1, 5 and 6. You don't get outplayed by Andre Iguodala in a Finals closeout game during an "all time great run." That '03 Duncan run, for instance, he capped it with a 20/20 game, nearly missing a quad double.

"All time great" Dork sure smoked em w/ those 41% shooting & stout defense against Haslem/Joel Anthony while capping the series w/ a 9/27 performance. (Barea/JET also closed out Gm 5)

DRtg: 105
ORtg: 105
Net:

[midnightpulp]

Dad Killer played in the WNBA regulation 3 point line era where Dennis Scott was chucking 3s at the same rate a Klay. After being credited 3 points while shooting long 2s, DK turned into DeMar DeFrozen when the line was extended back to NBA regulation.

Brook Lopez actually had the ability to shoot, the Bucks simply allowed him to showcase his skillset via their 5 out offense. DK didn't need anybody to set him up, he was just a Kirby tier 3 point shooter at best.

Yeah, and during the years Dennis Scott shot the most 3s, he had a .577 and .589 TS respectively, despite having a .44 raw FG percentage. Maybe now you'll see through your Dennis Scott reference how TS is boosted through 3 point shooting. Thanks for proving my point, re .

. Now Brook Lopez had "hidden 3 point shooting" ability, despite averaging 0.0 and 0.1 three point attempts over the majority of his career.

Kawhi COMBINATION of efficiency, raw stats & impact numbers is unmatched by any of those during a championship run.

Yeah, so unmatched that he's behind/equal to Lebron, Durant, and Curry just over the past few years in all those areas. Let's review:

2019 Kawhi: 15.9 on/off, 27.9 PER, 8.6 BPM, .619 TS.
2016 Lebron: 21.1 on/off, 30 PER, 13.1 BPM, .585 TS. Lebron wins 3 of 4 cats (note, I'm using PER because it's a summation of impact via raw per game stats).
2017 Durant: 6.0 on/off, 27.5 PER, 8.7 BPM, .683 TS. 2 of 4.
2017 Curry: 20.6 on/off, 27.1 PER, 10.8 BPM, .659 TS. 3 of 4

Yeah, "unmatched." . Maybe try to find a Raps forum in which you can be Kawhi's "fluffer" (notice how I spelled that right). You're too re ed for this site, and that's saying something when posters like hater and dabom exist.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, and the next season as the lead dog, he gets murked by Matt Barnes

That series is where my hate for you Kawhi fanboys began. You blamed those last 3 games he had in the series on everyone and anything but Kiwi. People probably think this thread was made out of saltiness because Kawhi turned his back on the Spurs. No. It's to myth bust the re ed opinions of Kawhi fans (e.g. helmet crew). You guys are the new Al Quobe.

Maybe it would help if you could provided context instead of churning out narratives based on spreadsheet numbers like your boy Morey.

Porker literally had the worst postseason series by a starting point guard since the merger & the starting lineup had one shooter (Danny) who was in a horrific slump. Once Kawhi cooked Barnes in Gm3/4, Doc Rivers TOLD the media (you can find the article) that they had to double him & that's when Blake essentially gave Diaw the Tony Allen treatment so he could double Kawhi when ever he tried to postup. (Tim was hitting scoring against DeAndre but that didn't help the spacing b/c he was scoring in the paint)

Pop did nothing while Doc River run a train on him on BOTH ends (he actually benched Patty when he was the only one hitting open shots) & Kawhi started forcing shots out of frustration which resulted in an ugly offense performance. You would have a point if he was unable to score in the post against JJ Barea or was being guarded by midget like Dirk was in '07 when he was at his PEAK.

[midnightpulp]

Maybe it would help if you could provided context instead of churning out narratives based on spreadsheet numbers like your boy Morey.

Porker literally had the worst postseason series by a starting point guard since the merger & the starting lineup had one shooter (Danny) who was in a horrific slump. Once Kawhi cooked Barnes in Gm3/4, Doc Rivers TOLD the media (you can find the article) that they had to double him & that's when Blake essentially gave Diaw the Tony Allen treatment so he could double Kawhi when ever he tried to postup. (Tim was hitting scoring against DeAndre but that didn't help the spacing b/c he was scoring in the paint)

Pop did nothing while Doc River run a train on him on BOTH ends (he actually benched Patty when he was the only one hitting open shots) & Kawhi started forcing shots out of frustration which resulted in an ugly offense performance. You would have a point if he was unable to score in the post against JJ Barea or was being guarded by midget like Dirk was in '07 when he was at his PEAK.

Like other players have never had teammates stink it up and thus had to deal with increased defensive pressure as a result. You're the one churning out narratives to excuse your boy for being outplayed by Matt Barnes.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, back to that Clippers series. Tim Duncan had little problem being stellar in the later games despite Tony sucking and having one shooter, which hurts a post-player's game much more than a perimeter player's. And this was with Duncan having to contend with DeAndre and Blake, while all Kawhi had to do was not get outplayed by Matt in' Barnes. Let's review:

Tim Duncan:

Game 5: 21, 11, 4 on .615. Had 3 steals to the "Klaw's" 0.

Game 6: 12, 13, 3 on .667.

Game 7: 27, 11, 1 on .688.

Now go visit BBRef and tell me how your hero did in games 5-7. No spin. No excuses. I want you to post the stats.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, and during the years Dennis Scott shot the most 3s, he had a .577 and .589 TS respectively, despite having a .44 raw FG percentage. Maybe now you'll see through your Dennis Scott reference how TS is boosted through 3 point shooting.

I see, your head can't comprehend how Kawhi can shoot from 2s as well as Jorn & shoot 3s as well as Klay. He has broken you.

Marinate on this career playoff stat: (FG%/2P%)
DK: 48.7 / 50.4%
Kawhi: 50.6% / 54%
THAT'S NOT FAIR

Now Brook Lopez had "hidden 3 point shooting" ability, despite averaging 0.0 and 0.1 three point attempts over the majority of his career.

You mean like how Channing Frye's total 3 point makes for his first 3 season was less than 10 b/c bigmen didn't shoot 3s?

Yeah, so unmatched that he's behind/equal to Lebron, Durant, and Curry just over the past few years in all those areas. Let's review:

2019 Kawhi: 15.9 on/off, 27.9 PER, 8.6 BPM, .619 TS.
2016 Lebron: 21.1 on/off, 30 PER, 13.1 BPM, .585 TS. Lebron wins 3 of 4 cats (note, I'm using PER because it's a summation of impact via raw per game stats).
2017 Durant: 6.0 on/off, 27.5 PER, 8.7 BPM, .683 TS. 2 of 4.
2017 Curry: 20.6 on/off, 27.1 PER, 10.8 BPM, .659 TS. 3 of 4

The last two aren't quite like the others

-Snake should be automatically disqualified with his putrid +6 on/off
-Wardell is a system superstar that's dependent on all-star teammates (he had 3 of them + Iggy)

-LeBrat didn't have the efficiency despite having a cakewalk to the Finals although his impact is undeniable

Again, Snake was shooting 55% when he had to play defense for 4 quarters which is why he jumped ship & cooked his numbers. Wardell has been proven time & again to not have the ability to carry role players to promise land without MULTIPLE all-stars along with defensive specialists .

[Kawhitstorm]

Like other players have never had teammates stink it up and thus had to deal with increased defensive pressure as a result. You're the one churning out narratives to excuse your boy for being outplayed by Matt Barnes.

You mean like how LeBrat shot 39% & committed an ungodly amount of turnovers against the Bulls in '15 when Kevin Love (still had Kyrie) went down thus didn't have adequate spacing? The Cavs would have been bounced by the Clippers but he had his cakewalks in the Leastern conference.

[Kawhitstorm]

Oh, back to that Clippers series. Tim Duncan had little problem being stellar in the later games despite Tony sucking and having one shooter, which hurts a post-player's game much more than a perimeter player's. And this was with Duncan having to contend with DeAndre and Blake

Wrong, Tim was being guarded 1-on-1 by DeAndre (+Big Baby) who has ALWAYS been an overrated defender. Blake was either ball pressuring/boxing out Diaw (Blake had a bunch of grab-and-go plays in the series) or playing off him & doubling Kawhi at the midpost area. (It was Chris Paul that would occasionally try & dig when Tim got going but he usually had ducked/sealed DeAndre thus didn't need too many dribbles)

[midnightpulp]

Post the stats. All players face different defensive looks. Quit acting like Kiwi was facing anything insurmountable. Also like the additional spin. Now DeAndre is an very overrated defender. . Only your hero faces the toughest challenges, every time, all the time.

[midnightpulp]

You mean like how LeBrat shot 39% & committed an ungodly amount of turnovers against the Bulls in '15 when Kevin Love (still had Kyrie) went down thus didn't have adequate spacing? The Cavs would have been bounced by the Clippers but he had his cakewalks in the Leastern conference.

No, I mean when like Kawhi was outplayed by Matt Barnes when Tim Duncan was trying, at 38, to drag his ass to the 2nd round and a chance at a repeat.

[Kawhitstorm]

No, I mean when like Kawhi was outplayed by Matt Barnes when Tim Duncan was trying, at 38, to drag his ass to the 2nd round and a chance at a repeat.

You mean to tell me the best player of his generation worked the most overrated defensive player of his time 1-on-1?

Tim was an All-NBA player that season, he wasn't a zombie like Dork.

......and we all know what happened when Matt Barnes tried to guard Kawhi 1-on-1, just ask Glenn.

[midnightpulp]

I see, your head can't comprehend how Kawhi can shoot from 2s as well as Jorn & shoot 3s as well as Klay. He has broken you.

Marinate on this career playoff stat: (FG%/2P%)
DK: 48.7 / 50.4%
Kawhi: 50.6% / 54%
THAT'S NOT FAIR

These players don't play in the same era. Quit trying to cross compare stats. Every NBA player has seen massive efficiency boosts over the past 5 years. The league's collective TS is the highest it's ever been. So yes, I believe Jordan would be an overall more efficient player than Kawhi today. What's your core argument anyhow? Are you trying to suggest that because he has slightly higher playoff efficiency than Jordan, he's the better post-season performer overall? If so, . Are you trying to suggest this most recent run was on the level of Jordan's best? If so, . In Jordan's best runs, he didn't get outplayed by the other team's role players nor had shaky closeout games. Here's an example. https://www.basketball-reference.com...206140CHI.html

That would be like Jordan getting outplayed by Clifford Robinson in that game .

The last two aren't quite like the others

-Snake should be automatically disqualified with his putrid +6 on/off
-Wardell is a system superstar that's dependent on all-star teammates (he had 3 of them + Iggy)

-LeBrat didn't have the efficiency despite having a cakewalk to the Finals although his impact is undeniable

Again, Snake was shooting 55% when he had to play defense for 4 quarters which is why he jumped ship & cooked his numbers. Wardell has been proven time & again to not have the ability to carry role players to promise land without MULTIPLE all-stars along with defensive specialists .

Runs that were better than Kawhi's don't count now because reasons. Christ, do you love to make excuses for your hero. Just like Kobe fans.