The Democratic plan for a 42% national sales tax

[spurraider21]

200 annually with no premiums is definitely affordable for all except the completely unemployed. And even those can probably get welfare through TANF to cover that.

how are the completely unemployed currently getting treatment and medication?

the people who lose out on this are generally the wealthy who are going to pay for more than "their share"

you know, these guys https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-wealthy.html

[Millennial_Messiah]

and what happens to those people who are 15 years old but need surgery and chemotherapy but havent paid taxes yet? them?

thats how a risk pool works

Definitely not them, but their parents have likely paid taxes and such. So medicare for all would consider pre-people too such as minors? Wouldn't that eliminate the need for Medicaid and CHIP.

Then what is the incentive to advance biomedical technology to the point where people live to be 110, 120, 150 on average (with higher quality long lives)? If such a system would bankrupt the economy. In the US nothing is ever done for the good of humanity, just for the good of the overall economic system.

[Millennial_Messiah]

how are the completely unemployed currently getting treatment and medication?

the people who lose out on this are generally the wealthy who are going to pay for more than "their share"

post-2012 ACA plans which usually offer low premiums, copays and deductibles but are otherwise garbage (tiny network, quack doctors etc). In texas there are 2, Oscar and Ambetter and they're both .

[clambake]

wow

[spurraider21]

Definitely not them, but their parents have likely paid taxes and such. So medicare for all would consider pre-people too such as minors? Wouldn't that eliminate the need for Medicaid and CHIP.

Then what is the incentive to advance biomedical technology to the point where people live to be 110, 120, 150 on average (with higher quality long lives)? If such a system would bankrupt the economy. In the US nothing is ever done for the good of humanity, just for the good of the overall economic system.

ok then what about a 20 year old who has paid some taxes for a few years and has a catastrophic illness requiring hundreds of thousands of dollars. sometimes you have those people. sometimes you have the 47 year old who never got sick then suddenly dropped dead who paid for nothing. thats called a risk pool

[spurraider21]

Then what is the incentive to advance biomedical technology to the point where people live to be 110, 120, 150 on average (with higher quality long lives)? If such a system would bankrupt the economy. In the US nothing is ever done for the good of humanity, just for the good of the overall economic system.

plenty of medical advancements have been made without the profit motive. thats ludicrous. you think university researchers are making billions?

[Millennial_Messiah]

plenty of medical advancements have been made without the profit motive. thats ludicrous. you think university researchers are making billions?

they're certainly making well into the six figures, that's for sure. With next to no progress since the 1970s.

wake me up when US life expectancy gets on par with the rest of the civilized world. As of last year, we're 43rd... pathetic. You have countries where it's close to 90 avg. and here it's barely 80, even a shade less for us men.

[spurraider21]

they're certainly making well into the six figures, that's for sure. With next to no progress since the 1970s.

wake me up when US life expectancy gets on par with the rest of the civilized world. As of last year, we're 43rd... pathetic. You have countries where it's close to 90 avg. and here it's barely 80, even a shade less for us men.

wow, so those countries with nationalized healthcare have better medical advancements than our for-profit system?

[Millennial_Messiah]

wow, so those countries with nationalized healthcare have better medical advancements than our for-profit system?

Yes.

BUT... Caveat. Immigrants to these EU nationalized healthcare nations can't participate unless they pay in.

[spurraider21]

Yes.

awesome. so your notion that the industry will collapse without a profit motive was debunked by you yourself

BUT... Caveat. Immigrants to these EU nationalized healthcare nations can't participate unless they pay in.

what does the latter have to do with the former?

[Millennial_Messiah]

awesome. so your notion that the industry will collapse without a profit motive was debunked by you yourself


what does the latter have to do with the former?

then again, the lines are really long, and whether an individual is treated/attempted to be saved in those countries often falls onto a utilitarian decision, and sometimes people end up having to pay a premium for private healthcare even in those places. A rich couple will have to pay to save their 94 year old mother/mother in law because there's a lot of younger people who need care first because they're more "important" or whatever. It's a double edged sword so there really is no perfect answer until we have biomedical enhancements.

[spurraider21]

then again, the lines are really long, and whether an individual is treated/attempted to be saved in those countries often falls onto a utilitarian decision, and sometimes people end up having to pay a premium for private healthcare even in those places. A rich couple will have to pay to save their 94 year old mother/mother in law because there's a lot of younger people who need care first because they're more "important" or whatever. It's a double edged sword so there really is no perfect answer until we have biomedical enhancements.

lines are long here too depending on where you live. thats a function of how many facilities/doctors there are relative to the population/demand. thats not going to change based on the coverage system.

but im not surprised to hear the death panel conspiracy theory lives on

[Millennial_Messiah]

lines are long here too depending on where you live. thats a function of how many facilities/doctors there are relative to the population/demand. thats not going to change based on the coverage system.

but im not surprised to hear the death panel conspiracy theory lives on

I'm not denying that patient pay healthcare is garbage, I'm just pointing out the downsides of socialized healthcare.

[spurraider21]

I'm not denying that patient pay healthcare is garbage, I'm just pointing out the downsides of socialized healthcare.

long lines are not exclusive to socialized healthcare... thats a product of supply and demand. how many healthcare facilities there are vs how many people need services.

thats independent of socialized vs privatized systems, though.

[Millennial_Messiah]

long lines are not exclusive to socialized healthcare... thats a product of supply and demand. how many healthcare facilities there are vs how many people need services.

thats independent of socialized vs privatized systems, though.

Technically Yes, but it tends to be a worse problem in socialized healthcare systems, since there are less providers in the industry because there is less gold to be dug. Let's face it... humans in general, not only Americans, are on the greedy side of optimal, on average.

Then you have the other confounding factor that Americans eat way too much candy and fast food compared to the EU, and you get a higher demand, which in turn creates a really high supply of providers looking to profiteer off a larger supply of patients. For as much as they'll say otherwise, the doctors and providers' organizations really want you to smoke like a chimney, eat fast food 3 times a day, and loaf around the couch and snack on potato chips and candy whenever you're not wolfing down a burger and fries combo. It's kind of obvious as to why.

There's really a lot more to consider and more to the picture than meets the eye

[spurraider21]

Technically Yes, but it tends to be a worse problem in socialized healthcare systems, since there are less providers in the industry because there is less gold to be dug. Let's face it... humans in general, not only Americans, are on the greedy side of optimal, on average.

this is the problem when you talk out of your ass, as usual

https://www.nationmaster.com/country...r-1,000-people

[monosylab1k]

[CosmicCowboy]

they're certainly making well into the six figures, that's for sure. With next to no progress since the 1970s.

wake me up when US life expectancy gets on par with the rest of the civilized world. As of last year, we're 43rd... pathetic. You have countries where it's close to 90 avg. and here it's barely 80, even a shade less for us men.

Drugs and suicide blow the averages.

[baseline bum]

It's bad because the nigger two doors down gets his healthcare costs lowered too.

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm pretty sure that middle class taxes will go up more than they currently pay for insurance if free health care for all passes.

[spurraider21]

I'm pretty sure that middle class taxes will go up more than they currently pay for insurance if free health care for all passes.

what is your pretty sure assessment based on?

[CosmicCowboy]

what is your pretty sure assessment based on?

What is your blue sky optimism based on?

[spurraider21]

What is your blue sky optimism based on?

A) your burden of proof since you are the one who was pretty sure about it

B) knocking out the insurance company middle man is a built in cost cutting mechanism. our medical costs are already much higher per person than just about every other developed nation. single payer system provides the best avenue to drive those costs down by increasing negotiating leverage against providers

C) if overall cost is driven down, and the tax which will fund it is progressive in nature, its very hard to come up with numbers where middle class taxpayers have an increased net cost

[CosmicCowboy]

A) your burden of proof since you are the one who was pretty sure about it

B) knocking out the insurance company middle man is a built in cost cutting mechanism. our medical costs are already much higher per person than just about every other developed nation. single payer system provides the best avenue to drive those costs down by increasing negotiating leverage against providers

C) if overall cost is driven down, and the tax which will fund it is progressive in nature, its very hard to come up with numbers where middle class taxpayers have an increased net cost

What's your definition of the "rich" that will pay for your insurance?

[ducks]

I would rather pay my 400 a month to insurance then to the gov for my insurance
Gov stuff does not work well