SLAM: Top 50: LeBron James, no. 1

[JamStone]

Sorry, that argument doesn't work in comparison to a shooting guard 3inches shorter, that weighs 50 pounds less being a better offensive rounder. Especially when Big Z is spreading the floor for James these past few years. The fact that Lebron takes more shots in the paint is even more indicative. By default it puts him the best position on the floor to rebound his own miss. 80% of Kobe's shots are jumpers.

And yes I'll say better. Watch when Kobe goes after an offensive board off a free throw compared to Lebron.

When LeBron attacks the rim, he gets fouled or dunks it. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks/lay-ups, thereby when he does attack the rim, he's not in position to rebound because he's not missing or he gets fouled. Zydrunas Ilgauskas has a career average of 3.1 offensive rebounds per game, 3.9 or per 36 minutes. Z may take a lot of jumpers, but when he isn't, he's positioning himself down low to rebound the offensive glass.

Again, LeBron isn't asked to attack the offensive glass. He attacks it, and if he isn't fouled and actually does miss, his front line teammates have generally been good offensive rebounders. Could he be a better offensive rebounder? Sure. But considering how much responsibility he already has on offense, I think it's a pretty petty criticism. And, if you're going to criticize his offensive rebounds, must mean he is all the more impressive as a defensive rebounder if he's the second best rebounding small forward even with being what you find as an underachieving offensive rebounder.

[JamStone]

You are both correct, the use of the triangle is a better argument but I was trying to put up an argument using numbers as I don't think Spurstrodamus has the ability to grasp the nuances of the triangle. With that said, I dont think its a real stretch to argue that when your passng to guys who shoot 39% on uncontested shots due to Kobe's commanding double and triple teams, that that will cost you 2 assists per game. But in fairness, that works both ways.

As for the 8 pts a game. Of course its a stark differense. But their shooting % was the same so it was obvioulsy done with more shots. I don't think taking more shots cons utes getting your players involved and making them better. Look at the stats that show when Kobe shoots less than 21 times a game they have a better winning % than when he shoots more.

Their numbers were pretty darn similar with the slight edge going to Lebron. Clearly not an obliteration! And the "making your teamates better" is way overblown. And you could never convince me that that the Lakers team of 06-07 is anywere near as talented as the 09 squad of the Cavs.

Kobe: 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player: 24 ppg, 2 apg, 3 rpg, 49% FG

If we were comparing Kobe to another player and the stats were above, would you say those stats are "pretty darn similar" with the "slight edge" to Kobe? I have a hard time believing you or any Laker fan saying that.

Not an "obliteration," but a convincing enough difference that saying they are "pretty darn similar" is more than a stretch to the other extreme as well.

[21_Blessings]

When LeBron attacks the rim, he gets fouled or dunks it. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks/lay-ups, thereby when he does attack the rim, he's not in position to rebound because he's not missing or he gets fouled.

Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all. Doesn't change the fact that Big Z brings his man out to the perimeter more often than not, giving Lebron an even bigger chance at grabbing that O board.

ydrunas Ilgauskas has a career average of 3.1 offensive rebounds per game, 3.9 or per 36 minutes. Z may take a lot of jumpers, but when he isn't, he's positioning himself down low to rebound the offensive glass.

Big Z still has no vertical to speak of. If there is a questionable rebound between the two he'll defer to Lebron every single time. Cleveland wasn't very good O rebounding team last season either. Contrast to previous years.

Again, Lebron played 19% of his minutes at PF. Which puts his man closer to basket. Which means a greater chance to grab rebounds in general.

Again, LeBron isn't asked to attack the offensive glass. He attacks it, and if he isn't fouled and actually does miss, his front line teammates have generally been good offensive rebounders. Could he be a better offensive rebounder?

Yes he could be a better offensive rebounder and should. Just like Shaq could and should have been a better defender. Lebron does alot of relying on his physical prowess.

Sure. But considering how much responsibility he already has on offense, I think it's a pretty petty criticism. And, if you're going to criticize his offensive rebounds, must mean he is all the more impressive as a defensive rebounder if he's the second best rebounding small forward even with being what you find as an underachieving offensive rebounder.

Yes James is a very good defensive rebounder. As I touched on above, the entire scheme of Cleveland's defense is to clear the paint so Bron can grab the board and bring the ball up the court. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact his team funnels him easy boards remains.

Good rebounder, just not fantastic for the most athletic 6'8, 265 forward the league has ever seen.

[JamStone]

The last three seasons, LeBron has had teammates with the following offensive rebounding numbers:

2008-09
Ilgauskas - 2.40 orpg
Ben Wallace - 2.40 orpg
Varejao - 2.00 orpg
Joe Smith - 1.70 orpg

2007-08
Ilgauskas - 3.60 orpg
Wallace - 2.70 orpg
Varejao - 2.80 orpg
Smith - 2.00 orpg
Dwayne Jones - 1.20 orpg

2006-07
Gooden - 3.30 orpg
llgauskas - 3.10 orpg
Varejao - 2.40 orpg
Donyell Marshall - 1.10 orpg


So, you have to understand that with multiple bigs who are very good offensive rebounders and with the toll LeBron already takes attacking the rim and carrying the scoring and playmaking load, to criticize him for not being a better offensive rebounder is a pretty shallow slam.

[21_Blessings]

Kobe played with rebounders like Shaq. Now with Odom, Gasol, Bynum.

It's not shallow at all. Being funneled D rebounds and then not putting effort to grab offensive rebounds when you have the best basketball body in the NBA is silly. With Lebron's size, quickness and strength he should be murdering the offensive boards.

[JamStone]

Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all. Doesn't change the fact that Big Z brings his man out to the perimeter more often than not, giving Lebron an even bigger chance at grabbing that O board.

So you're saying LeBron makes 64% of his close range shots? How many non-centers makes 64% of their close shots? That's actually pretty incredible considering how much he does attack the basket and take contact.

Big Z still has no vertical to speak of. If there is a questionable rebound between the two he'll defer to Lebron every single time. Cleveland wasn't very good O rebounding team last season either. Contrast to previous years.

Check those numbers I just posted.

Last year, Z averaged 2.4 orpg in 27 mpg. That would be 3.2 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes and would put him right near the top in the league, no hops or not.

Again, Lebron played 19% of his minutes at PF. Which puts his man closer to basket. Which means a greater chance to grab rebounds in general.

And, defensively, he was outstanding. Playing PF in a small ball line-up doesn't change his role on offense as perimeter facilitator, play maker, and scorer. His defensive rebounding was outstanding for a small forward who plays PF in small ball line-ups. So, your point carries little merit.

Yes James is a very good defensive rebounder. As I touched on above, the entire scheme of Cleveland's defense is to clear the paint so Bron can grab the board and bring the ball up the court. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact his team funnels him easy boards remains.

Good rebounder, just not fantastic for the most athletic 6'8, 265 forward the league has ever seen.

I guess defenses completely get out of the way as well so LeBron can pad his rebounds? What kind of is that argument? Oh right, a argument.

His Cavs teammates may have done that once in a while, like at that Madison Square Garden game when LeBron was trying to get a triple double with one more rebound in the final few possessions of a game that was over. But to say his teammates did that with regularity, which would compromise the team and its defense, is pretty far fetched. Come on now.

[JamStone]

Kobe played with rebounders like Shaq. Now with Odom, Gasol, Bynum.

It's not shallow at all. Being funneled D rebounds and then not putting effort to grab offensive rebounds when you have the best basketball body in the NBA is silly. With Lebron's size, quickness and strength he should be murdering the offensive boards.

Once again, stop with this. So, defenses down box out LeBron in fear of him not getting his rebounding averages? I don't doubt that if it's anyone's rebound to be had among the Cavs players with no chance of the other team getting it, his teammates will defer to LeBron at times. But, that's not happening very often, not even every game. And LeBron still has to go get it.

The hatorade in you is strong, young padawan.

[cobbler]

Kobe: 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player: 24 ppg, 2 apg, 3 rpg, 49% FG

If we were comparing Kobe to another player and the stats were above, would you say those stats are "pretty darn similar" with the "slight edge" to Kobe? I have a hard time believing you or any Laker fan saying that.

Not an "obliteration," but a convincing enough difference that saying they are "pretty darn similar" is more than a stretch to the other extreme as well.

Your manufactured stats aren't the same ratio as the real thing.

Shooting % is shooting %. There is no fudging there. They are equal.

You used a ratio of 2/5 (40%) and 3/6 (50%) for your numbers above for assists and rebounds respectively. The real life ones were 5/8 (62%) and 6/8 (75%).

So to answer your question. You are correct, I wouldn't, and i doubt any laker fan would call those close to similar.

Nice try though!

[21_Blessings]

Once again, stop with this. So, defenses down box out LeBron in fear of him not getting his rebounding averages?

How about you stop with the strawmans? You can do better.

I don't doubt that if it's anyone's rebound to be had among the Cavs players with no chance of the other team getting it, his teammates will defer to LeBron at times. But, that's not happening very often, not even every game. And LeBron still has to go get it.

Happens all the time on the defensive end. It's Cleveland's scheme for Bron to rebound the ball on defense.

The hatorade in you is strong, young padawan.

Not hating here at all. Pointing out why Lebron's "stats" aren't that much more impressive than Kobe's as you said. Look at what each player is working with. But it's cool we can disagree.

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room. Where the is Lebron Jame's post-game? He won't have that vertical and explosion forever.

[cobbler]

This is all conjecture and the bottom line is both are awesome players that put up outstanding numbers. I'd still take Kobe over Lebron at this stage simply for the mental and work ethic aspects. The scales are shifting though and will continue to do so. It happens to all of them... even the best.

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

[21_Blessings]

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

Kobe in Lebron's body wouldn't even be fair.

[cobbler]

Kobe in Lebron's body wouldn't even be fair.

Touchee! Can you imagine? I'd bet my house his numbers would blow what Lebron is doing today right off the charts.

With that said... watch out if LBJ actually figures it out and puts the game above molding the persona.

[JamStone]

Your manufactured stats aren't the same ratio as the real thing.

Shooting % is shooting %. There is no fudging there. They are equal.

You used a ratio of 2/5 (40%) and 3/6 (50%) for your numbers above for assists and rebounds respectively. The real life ones were 5/8 (62%) and 6/8 (75%).

So to answer your question. You are correct, I wouldn't, and i doubt any laker fan would call those close to similar.

Nice try though!

Ratios? 7 more points is 7 more points. 3 more assists is 3 more assists. Why should we use ratios?

But, fine, let's use ratios.

Kobe - 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player - 25 ppg, 3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 49% FG


That's using your "ratios." Would you say those stats are pretty darn similar with the slight edge to Kobe?

[JamStone]

How about you stop with the strawmans? You can do better.



Happens all the time on the defensive end. It's Cleveland's scheme for Bron to rebound the ball on defense.



Not hating here at all. Pointing out why Lebron's "stats" aren't that much more impressive than Kobe's as you said. Look at what each player is working with. But it's cool we can disagree.

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room. Where the is Lebron Jame's post-game? He won't have that vertical and explosion forever.

Why did you avoid responding to any of the actual points of substance?

You avoiding all of the substantive points completely... smh.

[cobbler]

Ratios? 7 more points is 7 more points. 3 more assists is 3 more assists. Why should we use ratios?

But, fine, let's use ratios.

Kobe - 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player - 25 ppg, 3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 49% FG


That's using your "ratios." Would you say those stats are pretty darn similar with the slight edge to Kobe?

Yes!

You are talking about 2 assists and 1.5 rebounds over an entire game. That's one or 2 deflected balls or tips. And one of the figures has a dependency on teammate production.

My point ORIGINALLY was that Kobe got absolutely villified and Lebron was considered the ultimate teammate with very similiar and outstanding numbers. I'll stand by that.

[JamStone]

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

I don't think there's any question that Kobe has the better skill set, more polished skill set. LeBron's physical strengths are what makes him so great. So why would you even ask this question?

It would be just like asking whether you would take Kobe's body with LeBron's style of play or LeBron's body with Kobe's style of play.

The question doesn't give any more insight to the discussion.

[cobbler]

I don't think there's any question that Kobe has the better skill set, more polished skill set. LeBron's physical strengths are what makes him so great. So why would you even ask this question?

It would be just like asking whether you would take Kobe's body with LeBron's style of play or LeBron's body with Kobe's style of play.

The question doesn't give any more insight to the discussion.

Was just a side thought... Lighten up.

[21_Blessings]

Why did you avoid responding to any of the actual points of substance?

Try and make a point that isn't a straw man.

You avoiding all of the substantive points completely... smh.

Your hypocrisy is grand. As you avoided all my points of substance completely.

[JamStone]

Yes!

You are talking about 2 assists and 1.5 rebounds over an entire game. That's one or 2 deflected balls or tips. And one of the figures has a dependency on teammate production.

My point ORIGINALLY was that Kobe got absolutely villified and Lebron was considered the ultimate teammate with very similiar and outstanding numbers. I'll stand by that.

I think you're full of , but ok.

So let me ask you this, in last year's playoffs, do you think that Brandon Roy was pretty darn close to being as good as Kobe with Kobe having merely a "slight edge" in his playoff performance?

KB - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, 45.7% FG
BR - 26.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 45.9% FG

Guess Laker fan should start speaking Brandon Roy's name in the discussion of the best players in the league. tlongII will be thrilled.

[23LeBronJames23]

[QUOTE=21_Blessings;3768722]Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all.

so he makes 64%. Thats pretty darn good. you know

[JamStone]

Was just a side thought... Lighten up.

Uh was just a response to your side thought... don't be so sensitive.

[cobbler]

I think you're full of , but ok.

So let me ask you this, in last year's playoffs, do you think that Brandon Roy was pretty darn close to being as good as Kobe with Kobe having merely a "slight edge" in his playoff performance?

KB - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, 45.7% FG
BR - 26.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 45.9% FG

Guess Laker fan should start speaking Brandon Roy's name in the discussion of the best players in the league. tlongII will be thrilled.

Yes... the are pretty darn close. And yes, Roy is in the discussion as one of the better players in the league.

The only edge I truly care about is with W's. And in that catagory... it's all Lakers and Kobe!

[cobbler]

Uh was just a response to your side thought... don't be so sensitive.

Oh yeah... Im so torn up over forum bantar.

[JamStone]

Try and make a point that isn't a straw man.



Your hypocrisy is grand. As you avoided all my points of substance completely.

Lol, I actually responded to your points.

Why didn't you respond to me responding to your "Z has no hops and therefore isn't a good offensive rebounder" with statistics to prove otherwise?

Why didn't you expound further on how defenses don't box out LeBron so that his teammates can funnel defensive rebounds to him?

Making 64% of close range shots is outstanding even for a big man, more especially for a small forward. Why didn't you respond to that after trying to flip the number by saying he misses 36% of his close range shots as if that meant he missed a lot of his shots.

Why don't you respond to the post I made that highlighted how many teammates he's had that were above average if not great offensive rebounders, rendering it unnecessary for LeBron to also crash the offensive glass?

Respond to those substantive points.

[23LeBronJames23]

Damn i like Kobe Bryant he is one of my favorite players but some laker fans make me wanna hate him.