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texbum knows what he is talking. Anyways good win by the mavs.
Here is the deal:
I think Dirk is superior to Duncan. Thats it. You guys are not going to change my mind. Tim has more rings yes. Tim has more awards yes. Tim has also had a MUCH better team and coach for the majority of his career, fact. Tim Duncan is one of a player but with a game on the line he is so far down the list of players I would go to its stupid. he isnt even top 5 on the Spurs!
texbum knows what he is talking. Anyways good win by the mavs.
Dirk also played for Don Nelson for the majority of his career. Don Nelson makes no secret about the fact that he doesnt care about defense. The Mavericks are not built around defense like the Spurs are. Tim Duncan is at the bottom of the funnel. Players funnel people into him. Its the defensive system. I am NOTsaying that Tim Duncan's numbers are a product of the system. I am saying he is in a system that helps his numbers.
Ah, I see, everybody else is wrong and you alone are correct.
Interesting.
Might I suggest that if you are the only person on God's green Earth that believes something, you are probably wrong?
The game is in the past, just so that you know. You might want to rethink your time argument. Or are you engaging in special pleading?
When you try to revise your statement to mean something other than what the vast majority of English speaking readers would understand it to mean, it is an indication that you yourself are aware that your argument is indefensible.
You are stating that you meant that Dirk was only better than Tim in the moment that you make the statement. Will you repeat the statement now?
Clearly, you can't. For that would reveal that past games do factor into your thinking.
You are out of your league. I'm running circles around you here.
Poor defenseless Mavs fan.
"far" more clutch might be too much then, Dirk is an outside shooter and is of course more clutch than Duncan.
I just remember the last playoff game of Dallas when Dirk messed up and they were eliminated.
Last year we still won against the Sonics and we got the champs rings.
I agree with you that tonight Dirk was much better than Duncan tonight, but Tim is known for starting slowly at the beginning of the season.
Look for Duncan after the All Star break!
dirk was really clutch vs houston last year when he hid in a hole vs mcgrady's d.
This whole argument was started by me saying Dirk is more clutch than Duncan. In all of your arguments none of you have done anything to disuade that. You have given me personal/team accomplishments that in no way reflect porrly on Nowitzki as a clutch player.
Lets end this now because its clear none of you will argue on a non-biased level.
Dirk plays no D for German NT. Dirk plays no D one-on-one. Dirk is soft as tissue paper on D. Where has your mind gone Texbum. Haven't you watched Dallas play the Spurs over the years? It doesn't matter what system Dirk's in.
There are not too many NBA players or coaches who would listen to your reasoning.
Dirk doesn't step up come playoff time? What the ?
The fact that Don Nelson doesn't care about defense isn't an excuse for Dirk sucking at Defense!
I think that if Donnie didn't care about defense, it was first of all because he didn't have players that can play good D (Nash, Dirk, Finley..)
Just because all Spurs fan believe it doesnt make it so
Agreed and I am glad. I am not a Mavs fan and I would rather forget the game.The game is in the past, just so that you know. You might want to rethink your time argument. Or are you engaging in special pleading?
Please quote to me exactly which statement I am revising as I had no idea I had done so. Perhaps in searching for holes in my logic you never bothered to grasp it in the first place.When you try to revise your statement to mean something other than what the vast majority of English speaking readers would understand it to mean, it is an indication that you yourself are aware that your argument is indefensible.
Dirk is better than Tim Duncan, right now. Period.You are stating that you meant that Dirk was only better than Tim in the moment that you make the statement. Will you repeat the statement now?
You're dillusional.Clearly, you can't. For that would reveal that past games do factor into your thinking.
You are out of your league. I'm running circles around you here.
Poor defenseless Mavs fan.
Manurules:
My original statement about Dirk being better than Duncan was in regards to this game. Thus it is in the "Game Blog". Then as it became a topic for such heated discussion I let it be known that was in fact how I meant it. As the argument continued I was forced to defend my reasons for thinking Dirk was a better player, thus the clutch argument as well as several other I have made. Its a progression and evolution of an argument, such as humans are accustomed to do.
Forgive my confussion over what statement you were speaking in regards to. I am going up against 5 of you trying to keep track of all the erratic statements you are making to me and forgetting my own. Though, from your posts its clear your doesnt stink so i am sure you will take this apology as a chance to mock.
I do think Dirk is better. Yesterday, tonight, and tomorrow.
Again, you have to attempt to explain away the statistics Tim has accrued and Dirk has not. You can't account for the actual data.
You have to constantly try to modify your theory to explain why Tim has better numbers all the way around.
A person could say to another person that martians exist. When the second person asks for proof, the first person could simply say that they are invisible to humans. There are two ways, then, of accounting for the lack of human sighting of martians: the most obvious and direct way- they do not exist and the less obvious and less direct way which tries to explain away the lack of support by modifying the theory to better accomodate the data= stating that martians are invisible to humans.
The simplest and most direct way of accounting for the facts is usually the best way. The simplest and most direct way of accounting for Tim's superior numbers- 8 times 1rst team all defense, all star every year, two time MVP regular season, 3 time finals mvp, having 3 championships, more double doubles by Tim, the fact that the Spurs in the Tim Duncan era have a higher winning percentage than any other US professional team in any major sport...
The easiest, most logical and direct way of accounting for these facts is to conclude that Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Dirk.
There are very few if any well known basketball analysts who would agree with your contention that Dirk is better than Tim.
A fairly large group of sportswriter relatively recently voted in favor of the proposition that Tim Duncan is the best power forward of all time.
Dirk does not having anything equivalent to this kind of acclaim from well respected sports writers.
Dirk is a better offensive player but Duncan has much better defense and is then a better overall player.
I didn't watch this game but I saw Duncan playing against the cavs, looks like he's more willing to pass the ball instead of shooting. I'm sure that if Tim was more aggressive tonight he would have scored 25+ points, it's just the beginning of the season and Tim doesn't look too motivated..
Its not "modifying" my theory, im explaining it.
Good point though grossly inapropriate in thsi situation.A person could say to another person that martians exist. When the second person asks for proof, the first person could simply say that they are invisible to humans. There are two ways, then, of accounting for the lack of human sighting of martians: the most obvious and direct way- they do not exist and the less obvious and less direct way which tries to explain away the lack of support by modifying the theory to better accomodate the data= stating that martians are invisible to humans.
I have not argued Tim superior numbers. All I have stated is that superior personal achievment and team achievments dont always equate to a better player. Horace Grant has how many more rings than Karl Malone? Does that make him better?The simplest and most direct way of accounting for the facts is usually the best way. The simplest and most direct way of accounting for Tim's superior numbers- 8 times 1rst team all defense, all star every year, two time MVP regular season, 3 time finals mvp, having 3 championships, more double doubles by Tim, the fact that the Spurs in the Tim Duncan era have a higher winning percentage than any other US professional team in any major sport...
That would be true if it was indeed black and white. However the measure of a players ability isnt just black and white. I feel Dirk has more ability. You believe Duncan does.The easiest, most logical and direct way of accounting for these facts is to conclude that Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Dirk.
Very true.There are very few if any well known basketball analysts who would agree with your contention that Dirk is better than Tim.
A fairly large group of sportswriter relatively recently voted in favor of the proposition that Tim Duncan is the best power forward of all time.
Must I quote Stephen A. Smith in a attempt to show you exactly how much what these "experts" say matters to me?Dirk does not having anything equivalent to this kind of acclaim from well respected sports writers.
The thing is between Dirk and Duncan is Dirk is slightly inconsistent game by game. When his shot is going he is clearly the better player. If it's not going Dirk isn't as effective. Duncan is usually pretty consistent since he hangs around the rim more. On defense Dirk has really improved at that. Calling him soft is dillusional. He is the opposite of that. At times he gets a little too aggresive. Duncan has had more success in the playoffs though so I would give it to Duncan.
i think this is a very logical statement and I agree with it 100%.
Tim Duncan is FAR more consistent.
themanurules, good arguing with you. You almost swayed mej/k.
Gotta bail, peace
delusional.
You originally stated that Dirk is a better basketball player than Tim Duncan.
When I challenged that statement, you revised your statement to mean that you only meant at the exact time that you were writing this. You indicated that past performance prior to this game did not count since you claimed that you were only stating that Dirk was better than Tim during the actual fleeting moments of the game then being played.
That modification suggests an improbable interpretation of your original statement. Very few, if any, basketball fans would express their belief that player x is better than player y as you did unless they believed that this truth could be supported by empirical evidence from the past.
When you say that Dirk is better than Tim, most people will understand you as thinking that there are statistics from the past which support that view.
Ruling out all past statistics as evidentiary information does not make sense.
In other words, if I say Kobe is better than TMac, most people will believe that I think that there is some relevant empirical support for that view in the past which should be counted as evidence. If after having made that statement, I was challenged to support it and I claimed that all past statistics were not relevant, most people would conclude that I know that I am wrong, but want to be an obscurantist.
What a totally ty game.
First serious oppoenent, and Spurs fold like a house of cards.
Spurs weren't tired, the season only started this week, last night was an easy game, nobody played any big minutes. Spurs are pooped 3 games into the season?
The Spurs didn't care, were lackadaisical, no intensity, no heads-up whatsoever. Mavs get 12 STLS?
Spus resting on their laurels?
Manu shoots 22%. If he's hurt, sit him.
The Spurs couldn't hit , 40% FG, and couldn't stop , Mavs shoot FG 50%, Spurs allow 103 pts.
Spurs nearly always lose when they lose the paint, and they lost the paint, 36 - 42 pts
Tony continues to be fricking amazing. Aggressive, but cool and ruthless. But 4 TO for only 3 AST.
Spurs had only 14 AST for 31 FGs, way under their avg AST and under their usual AST/FG %age. Poor team ball.
Finley fizzled again, stone cold.
Beno dribbled the ball off his foot, and generally looked as ty as possible in 4 minutes.
Well, Pop, how are you gonna get the Spurs to make an effort? If the Spurs continue like that, they'll 3 - 6 after the road trip.
Hopefully Pop won't have to do anything. Surely the players (those who should be) are embarrassed by their performance tonight and put a better effort out next game. And all the ones after that.
And hopefully they already have December 1st circled in red.
Comparing TD and Dirk is a joke...there is no comparison.
TD plays HIS position...he is a bigman, therefore he plays where BIGMEN play... INSIDE. Dirk is a very gifted and skilled player but he plays outside far too much. Dirk does not make his teamates better when he is on the court like Tim does.
I don't even know why this thread is even debating who is a better offensive or defensive player.
Don't confuse Dirk having a better stroke from range for Dirk being a better offensive player than Tim...lol thats just crazy.
When was the last time anyone EVER saw Dirk go down low and dominate a game inside?
Like I said, Dirk is a damn skilled player, but shooting from the 3pt line doesn't make the rest of your teamates better.
Why do you think the vast majority of GM's that were polled and asked if they were starting a new franchise and had 1 player in the entire league to pick to build around they would pick Tim?
The answer is simple...Tim can dominate his position and make his teamates better... PERIOD !!
No offense to Dirk, like I said, he is fun to watch and is a fine player, but better than Timmy?...hahahaha not hardly.
theManurules---good argument. You sounded like a trial lawyer. I had to go look up obscurantist in the dictionary. Good word.
Ok next year training camp needs to be in like Sibera... punishment time...
Awwwwwww!
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