Reply With Quote
it's not even an argument... you specifically cited that season, i just wanted to know where u got that number from. it's cool if you dont have a source, btw
Bro, you know that's a bull argument, stopwell, the article is for 2011-2012, but you said 2013-2014
Go to basketball-reference and filter the White Americans for 2013-2014 if you don't believe it..I did it for a research paper in the past, it was between 9 and 10%..
it's not even an argument
It was actually one of the best assignments I have ever submitted, tbh
It was regarding White people and their at ude towards Lebron, as I've discussed here several times(made a few threads about it..pretty sure spurraider was upset about the results back then, as well
yeah i remember u posting several articles by ethan sherwood strauss about it
but i'm glad we cleared up that the specific season by season numbers you provided aren't backed up by much
So, do you have a theory on the decline of the White American NBA player?
lack of athleticism when the state of the league is largely predicated on it? i dont know
So all of a sudden he doesn't countBolt is one athlete, an outlier. You can't just refer to him as an example of athletic evolution across the board as much I can't use David Robinson (still unequaled as far as size/speed/athleticism ratio go in the NBA) as an example of how much better athletes were overall in the 90's. All of Bolt's comp aside from Powell still has the traditional ~6ft, 160-180lb sprinter build.
The NFL is a much better example because like the NBA their athletes have to make cuts, move laterally, start and stop, actually make bodily contact with each other. Many NBA/NFL athletes are interchangeable, Matt Barnes and Kawhi Leonard could've been NFL players, Julius Peppers could've been an NBA player etc. If you really think 90's NFL athletes are comparable to today's you're delusional, you hand picked very few genetic freaks that by today's standards are actually pretty common.
Athletes as a whole are far more athletic, and it's not close. Something as simple as Google has made that possible with all the things we know about nutrition and weight training, not to mention the 5.5 Million children playing youth basketball honing their games from young ages. Private coaching has done wonders for NBA basketball, without it you wouldn't see players like Curry.
I also see you keep referring to the jump shooting, ball handling, passing evolution among bigger players. That is a SKILL evolution, not an athletic evolution, and with regard to perimeter oriented bigs who can shoot and dribble (many bigs still can't even do that), that is an evolution that was dictated by rule changes more than any kind of natural progression. For all the skills gain in those areas, bigs lost skills in the post. DeAndre, Dwight Howard, Whiteside, Davis are all flat out in the post. Again, why do you think Duncan can still play against these guys on one leg? Bird and Magic were Boris Diaw 30 years ago. I also like the way you deflect to his weight as if that's a positive. If he wasn't a fatass, he'd be even more dangerous, as he was when he was a lean 210-220 when he first came into the league. Andat LMA being 270lb.
So yeah, you haven't proven there has been any great leap in athleticism from the 60's to today. There's been progress with better training methods and nutrition, but not some exponential leap that has produced 50" verticals for most NBA players.
Do you know what "much" means? You think a microsecond gain in the 40 is a "leap." Or a 100th of inch in vertical leap is a leap. I don't. And I would contend that point. The Patriots won the Superbowl with a midget, white receiving core and a running back by committee who are all pretty underwhelming athletically. Gronk is the only "freak" in that bunch. The 80's had Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, etc, etc, all with pretty much identical size/speed/athleticism ratios to their modern superstar counterparts. Even Charles Woodson, who was a young contemporary of that group in the 90's is leading the league (or was) in INTs
See above. If you're an athlete, lateral quickness is not something magically foreign to you. If they need to train that attribute, they would.
I've also seen D-Rob cross Cedric Ceballos out of his shoes (literally). And there wasn't some leap from 80's basketball to the early 90's. And where is your cut off point for bigs?
6'9, 260:
Most of those clips are of past his prime Malone. He was even better on the break and open floor in the 80's/90's. Still a choker, though. And lol at bigs being as mobile as Hakeem, David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, 20-25 year old Sabonis. Duncan still ranks ahead of all these modern lops. Yeah, bigs today have very imposing and unstoppable athleticism that the supposedly slowfooted bigs of the past can't handle on either end. And yeah, Duncan can't step out and guard stretch 4s. I mean, he is 40 with one leg. In any event, for as much as a Kevin McHale couldn't guard Blake on the perimeter, Blake couldn't guard him in the post (and neither could DeMonkey).
Boban runs the court like a deer
Sure, but an evolution of medicine isn't an evolution of innate human athleticism. If you want me to concede the massive superiority of today's players compared to a period like the 80's (which isn't a fair comparison, since they trained very differently for the game back then, since it was much more high tempo), I want to see raw numbers: vertical leaps, baseline-to-baseline times, shuttle times, etc, etc. You seem to be all too impressed by physique and muscle definition. Yeah, they had that even in the 60's.
Are players today superior? Sure. But not massively so compared to post-merger NBA players (there was a leap from 60's to 70's ball prompted by the ABA, and guess what, great players from the mid-60s EVOLVED their skillsets to keep up in the 70's. You act like this is impossible to achieve). We've seen Jordan evolve his skillset from a wiry, quick penetrator to a more imposing presence who can operate in the post. And even at 40, he was dropping 22ppg per game in '01 on modern players weened on your Eastern Bloc training.
http://www.nba.com/history/players/pippen_bio.html
SGs like who? A broken down D-Wade is still putting up good numbers. You mean SGs like Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, CJ McCollum, Eric Gordon, etc, etc? No bigger than SGs of the 90's (admittedly the 80's players were leaner, but it was more of a stamina game then, and those same players put on weight as the game changed).
The SF position has pretty much remained steady at the 6'6"-6-9" height since the 80's. They were even around 230!
http://www.nba.com/history/players/wilkins_bio.html
Bigs are more mobile, but have tier fundamentals in the post. Blame AAU and Kevin Garnett for this, since after KG, every big wanted to play as a jumpshooter. It was only AFTER the rule changes that soft jumpshooting perimeter bigs became a strength rather than a liability as they were in the early-mid-00s grit and grind era. The Spurs and Lakers ate those type pace-and-space teams alive in those days. Don't get me wrong, I prefer pace-and-space, but rule changes are what made it an effective strategy, not because athleticism and skillsets changed necessitating its use.
Ah, I see what the problem is here. You don't realize the NBA didn't start employing strength and conditioning coaches until I believe around either '88 or '90? Strength and conditioning coaches helped revolutionize athleticism in both the NFL and NBA. The NFL first started hiring them in the 70's, they taught athletes how to remain injury free, how to workout in an explosive manner, how to work out properly and target muscles they didn't even know they had, also most importantly what to eat which is extremely important when lifting. The final product are 6'11 274lb PF's like Aldridge, 270lb SF's like Lebron, 240lb SF's like Leonard, 6'10 260lb ball handlers like Griffin etc.
A lot of athletes in the 80's were on their own, they didn't have guidance athletes do now, they didn't have something as simple as google in their lives. That is why 80's players were so lightweight, many of them did not lift weights because they didn't know how. Diet wise a lot of guys didn't know wtf they were doing, and if you lift weights you'll know how vital a proper diet is. You can workout all you want, but if your diet isn't on point, you'll see piss poor results.
Strength and conditioning coaches are now hired by colleges too, players bodies are being molded from very young ages and have access to these facilities whenever they please.
Michael Jordan did not start lifting weights until 1989
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/WpxTIZz...is-airness.htm
Jordan was one of the first few players to utilize a strength and conditioning coach named Tim Grover, prior to that he'd tried working out but injured himself. He was a 190-195lb stick when he entered this league, it took him years to fill out his frame. That is what you're not understanding, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Wilkins, Malone, they did not enter the league at the weights they're listed at paper, they were significantly smaller.
When you're posting footage of Jordan, Pippen, or Olajuwon against Bird they were all very inexperienced and hadn't come close to filling out their bodies, their opponents on the other hand were heavily experienced vets that had matured their bodies, although not to the extent you see today because the lack of overall knowledge about nutrition and working out.
The NBA and players saw the effects Tim Grover had on Jordan, soon you had strength and conditioning coaches in every franchise, players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Robinson all followed in Jordan's footsteps. All of them, Pippen, Barkley and Olajuwon trained with Jordan's S&C coach, Grover. The whole NBA found out Jordan's secret and applied it to all of their players.
190-195lb rookie.
In the '92 off season Jordan said he was in the 213lbs in 1992 and was barely benching 265lbs:
FF to 29:40
By the time he came back after his retirement Jordan was in the 220lb range and significantly stronger, it really helped his post game out as he relied on his size in the post.
-Dominique Wilkins is listed at 230lbs but he like the others, took years to fill out physically. Wilkins was barely 200lbs as a rookie, around 215-220 in his prime, and filled out late in his career around 230lbs:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...-Wilkins-4866/
-Charles Oakley is listed at 245lbs but like the others, it took him years to fill out his body, he was a 225lb rookie
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...s-Oakley-3801/
-Scottie Pippen was also a 212lb rookie that took years to physically mature, he didn't reach the 220's until the mid to late 90's.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...e-Pippen-3959/
-David Robinson is listed at 250lbs but like the others it took him years to fill his body out, he was a 227lb rookie, he later reached 236 in the 90's and peaked at 250 in the late 90's-00s
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/doc/292853770.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&da te=May%2021,%201988&author=MARK%20HEISLER&pub=Los% 20Angeles%20Times%20(pre-1997%20Fulltext)&edition=******page=&desc=U.S.%20O lympic%20Men%27s%20Basketball%20Trials%20The%20Rea l%20David%20Robinson%20Surfaces%20Again
Leonard was already around 230 in his rookie year the size of Charles Oakley and Oakley doesn't have a quarter of Leonard's skill lmao, as a 21 year old rookie he was just as big as Pippen at his physical peak as a man lol . You've been comparing the rookie weights of modern players that haven't been updated to physically peaked 80s-90's players weights.
All of these players have been working on their bodies for years with the help of strength and conditioning coaches which didn't become a staple of the NBA until around the 90s, they didn't even exist in NCAA sports at that time either.
-Lamarcus Aldridge is 274lbs, he's still listed at 240lbs his rookie weight like most players are, it's taken him years to fill out his body:
http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/in...anged_his.html
-Davis' rookie weight is 220lbs, like Aldridge's it has not been updated:Over the past six seasons, Aldridge has added a staggering 41 pounds of muscle to his frame, transforming a 234-pound string bean as a rookie into what teammates and opponents say is now an immovable object.
http://www.slamonline.com/nba/anthony-davis-put-on-12-pounds-of-muscle-this-summer/#l6VfcOH7XzU12FUp.97
The 22-year-old Davis, now weighing 253 lbs, is coming off averages of 24.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 1.5 blocks
-Players like Kevin Durant have been working with strength and conditioning coaches since he was 16 years old, he was 185lbs in high school, around 215 as a rookie, and has now filled out to 240lbs, it's taken him YEARS of training:
http://newsok.com/article/3873172
-Even Kawhi Leonard has been the beneficiary of having 1 on 1 private coaching by a former SDSU player named Marvin Lea, in fact he guided him towards basketball instead of football:
http://www.pe.com/articles/leonard-6...ing-kawhi.html
Leonard also used to workout with Richard Jefferson at SDSU, a lot of these college athletes now have the opportunity to play and practice against a lot of these guys just by hitting up someone with a text or contacting them on social media, it's that easy. They get a ton of work in, private coaching that a lot of players never had access to in the 80's or even 90's.
-Players are receiving all sorts of help and guidance from youth development programs which MILLIONS of kids now benefit from like Leonard and Stephen Curry.
"Private coaching and being able to have access to it was a big part of my development as a basketball player," Curry said. "...
http://www.si.com/nba/2015/03/30/steph-curry-coachup-youth-basketball-golden-state-warriors
Last edited by KL2; 12-01-2015 at 01:12 AM.
man, i really dont want to read walls of texts about sprinting and jumping...
Wade, Dirk, and KG? Gtfo
Larry Bird was a bad mutha. Of course everyone will put Jordan over him, but I say Bird over Jordan. He might not have been a guy that could fly like Mike, but he had the smarts and a of a shot. His defense was also very good and he was a decent all around rebounder. His heart and tenacity, and will to never quit made him the greatest ever. The best thing he did though, was make his team better, and give them the belief that they were better than they were. To me, he's the best ever.
either way, HarlemHeat37 i dont get the point... the % of white players is roughly the same. are you contending that white internationals are significantly more athletic than white americans?
Jordan
Jabbar
LeBron
Magic
Malone
Kobe
The Big O
Bird
Wilt
Duncan
It's strange. It's not a genetic thing, since a lot of white Americans are of the same "stock" as the foreign born whites who have taken their place. My guess is that foreign born players are forged in tougher conditions, playing professional ball in the various Euroleagues as early as 16. The compe ion is much better there than it is in the NCAA/AAU. I also think white Americans have lost interest in basketball due to its image as a "black/hip-hop" sport. Fathers probably push their kids at a young age to play baseball or football rather than basketball. I mean, white American basketball players are pretty underwhelming athletically compared to Mike Trout, Gronk, Woodhead, etc. , Kevin Pillar on your Blue Jays probably has a higher vertical than 99% of white American basketball players
In a lot of European countries, especially in Eastern Europe, basketball is a "religion." Funny enough, basketball exchanged places with baseball over the past 80 years in this regard. Basketball was once a good old boy "white" sport that blacks had little interest in, preferring to play baseball. Now baseball has that image in the US (but baseball is the "hip/cool" sport in a lot of Latin countries), with blacks viewing the game as "uncool."
tl;dr it's a cultural thing.
Boit "counts," but he's not portending the next stage of sprinter/athletic evolution as much as David Robinson didn't advance 7 foot basketball players to all look and play like him. Bolt is not the norm. He's 1 in a billion, like Robinson. We haven't seen another David Robinson from an athletic/size/height standpoint. Closest we have is probably Lebron.So all of a sudden he doesn't count
If you're going to make these claims, I want data, not qualitative "eye test" examinations of what you believe is "cutting edge" athleticism. For you to make such a claim would have to assume some giant leap in innate human athleticism over 2/3 decades. Sports science can only take human biomechanical limitations so far, and from what I've read on the subject, we've peaked a while ago. I would say the biggest gains in the sports medicine area have to do with prolonging careers. If what you say is true, then running back 40 times should be averaging 4.2. They're not. They're still at about their 4.4/4.5 averages as they were in the 80's and 90's (no handpicking on my part needed). Herschel Walker, Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, any top tier great from the 80's/90's is top athlete in today's game. Walker, for instance, ran the 100m in 10.10 at 6'1" 225 and held the 55m world record. If you want to credit his athleticism to "Eastern Bloc" methods, fair enough, but your contention that NFL athletes are FAR superior today is re ed. I'm sure there's been a gain, but it's less than 10%. If it were anything more, we'd see players running sub-4 40s and having 50" verts as the norm across the league.The NFL is a much better example because like the NBA their athletes have to make cuts, move laterally, start and stop, actually make bodily contact with each other. Many NBA/NFL athletes are interchangeable, Matt Barnes and Kawhi Leonard could've been NFL players, Julius Peppers could've been an NBA player etc. If you really think 90's NFL athletes are comparable to today's you're delusional, you hand picked very few genetic freaks that by today's standards are actually pretty common.
Private coaching and more kids playing all translates into an skill evolution, not an athletic one. And like I said, when we look at sports history, the players from the previous era typically transition into the "new and improved" era without much problem, provided they're still relatively young. You talk like google and proper diet are magical or something. It's not turning a 5.0 40yd runner into a 4.3 runner.Athletes as a whole are far more athletic, and it's not close. Something as simple as Google has made that possible with all the things we know about nutrition and weight training, not to mention the 5.5 Million children playing youth basketball honing their games from young ages. Private coaching has done wonders for NBA basketball, without it you wouldn't see players like Curry.
We've had this misunderstanding in the past, and you ignore it when I point it out to you every time. Your REVOLUTION is my SLOW LINEAR progress. I've demonstrated, despite how "advanced we are," that human athleticism has only generally improved by about 10% over the past 120 years. Bolt did not cut the 100m time in half from when it was first ran in compe ion in 1891. The most cutting edge runner the world has ever seen has only improved on that 10.8 1891 time by 1.2 seconds. And that guy no doubt had poor technique. Transport him to today, spend a month with him showing him modern sprinting technique (you don't even need to give him modern training), and he probably breaks 10 easily. And given the fact he wasn't a sub-saharan African, he probably wasn't the "fastest man in the world." And when you break that progress up into a per year basis, and it's ungodly slow. Same progress and even stagnation has occurred in other athletic events. We've peaked.Ah, I see what the problem is here. You don't realize the NBA didn't start employing strength and conditioning coaches until I believe around either '88 or '90? Strength and conditioning coaches helped revolutionize athleticism in both the NFL and NBA. The NFL first started hiring them in the 70's, they taught athletes how to remain injury free, how to workout in an explosive manner, how to work out properly and target muscles they didn't even know they had, also most importantly what to eat which is extremely important when lifting. The final product are 6'11 274lb PF's like Aldridge, 270lb SF's like Lebron, 240lb SF's like Leonard, 6'10 260lb ball handlers like Griffin etc.
A lot of athletes in the 80's were on their own, they didn't have guidance athletes do now, they didn't have something as simple as google in their lives. That is why 80's players were so lightweight, many of them did not lift weights because they didn't know how. Diet wise a lot of guys didn't know wtf they were doing, and if you lift weights you'll know how vital a proper diet is. You can workout all you want, but if your diet isn't on point, you'll see piss poor results.
Strength and conditioning coaches are now hired by colleges too, players bodies are being molded from very young ages and have access to these facilities whenever they please.
And guess what, during that transition from 80's leaness to the 90's lean bulk, Bird still averaged 20, 10, 7 on .466 shooting. Watch videos of '92 Bird and he can barely move, his back was gone, and that was the year Jordan was at his all-time peak. First game against Chicago, Bird dropped 30 on 13-22 shooting. I await some silly excuse from you ("uh, it was only Jordan and Pippen who were working with Tim Grover. It hadn't yet gone league wide, so that was why Bird was able to do well."). He even had a 49 point game against Drexler and the Blazers, who had the long and lengthy 6'10" Cliff Robinson (something of a cutting edge player in 92) at SF. And '92 was a year (following the success of the Bulls) that the league seemed to get really athletic. An old Bird adjusted fine. But in this era he'd be Ryan Kelly because reasons and Willie Cauley-Bust being able to move like a guard.When you're posting footage of Jordan, Pippen, or Olajuwon against Bird they were all very inexperienced and hadn't come close to filling out their bodies, their opponents on the other hand were heavily experienced vets that had matured their bodies, although not to the extent you see today because the lack of overall knowledge about nutrition and working out.
The NBA and players saw the effects Tim Grover had on Jordan, soon you had strength and conditioning coaches in every franchise, players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Robinson all followed in Jordan's footsteps. All of them, Pippen, Barkley and Olajuwon trained with Jordan's S&C coach, Grover. The whole NBA found out Jordan's secret and applied it to all of their players.
You probably think I'm arguing with you out of nostalgia. No. I'm an "evidence" guy, and your silly contentions (Bird would a 15th man in today's league or Adam Morrison) don't hold up to scrutiny. Now, if you want to be realistic and say "if 80's Bird played exclusively in this era, he's probably not top 10. More like top 20-30." That's an idea that makes sense. You can even eye test this . Bird's offensive game is much better than the Ryan Kellys and Adam Morrisons. Light years better in the midpost. Better release point on his jumper (note how Chip has rebuilt Leonard's jumper to have a higher release point more behind the head instead of the common "natural release" point from in front of the face/forehead. Bird had a similar release. And it's one that is pretty much unblockable, especially if you're 6'9"). Could finish with the left and right equally as well. Better passer. And quicker. Bird's first step was actually very quick.
If you played basketball, those are unblockable jumpers for players 6'5"-6'9". You'd have to jump at the exact same time as the shooter (which is nearly impossible to do) and then no-step vert to about 10 feet instantly.
And your examples of players gaining weight proves my point about the ability of players evolving to suit the times (though, they're starting to shed again).
Last edited by midnightpulp; 12-01-2015 at 03:54 AM.
The weight argument is a non-starter for me. Today's players aren't tougher than that of yesteryear. In fact, they're much wussier.
So how does that translate to bird not being as dominant as he was back in the day? Lebron, kawhi and Durant can guard bird as well as bird can guard them.AMb I already said Magic would have similar problems ... Did you even read this thread?
Love them both but Cooper and Pippen compared to LeBron & Durant?
In the same vein as how is it an insult to put Kobe 15th ... how did I downplay Bird?
Called him my 2nd GOAT SF ever ... said he would be #1 if Lebron doesn't ring again ...
So me saying he would have problems defending LeBron & KD and that Kiwi could cause him problems on defense is a slap in the face or diminishing his greatness? A SF that is DPOTY like Cooper with Pippen's length but dedicated to defense first would make it tough for Bird to score why is that NOT a compliment to KL? Durant and Lebron score on most everyone why is it wrong to argue a non elite level athlete and defender (not player Bird is a GOAT player) would struggle to cover those guys? Bird couldn't guard Nique ... Lebron is bigger and faster than Wilkins ... Durant is longer and a more well rounded scorer. Seems pretty logical they would score on Bird too ... Kiwi is more of a question, but he is improving on offense and his defense more than makes up for it. Again where is the diminishing of Bird?
Not sure how I diminish him with any of that. is anything I am saying crazy or derogatory towards Bird? Is this a race thing?
Now that I have Duncan over Kobe I guess you miss arguing with me ... so now you picking fights that aren't there ...
Bird is in my all time top 10. and at least 2nd GOAT SF ...
And yes Magic could not guard Curry ... but Steph cant guard him either due to size ...apples to oranges, Amb ...
As great as kawhi is on defense, he is but one of the best, not the best. I'd still put Pippen, rodman, and perhaps artest and Bowen above him as a defender.
Kawhi has problems guarding really quick PGs, I'm no sure how well he guards the post, but he's great with guarding athletic, strong SG and sf types, or small ball 4s, which the league is full of right now.
Bird will dominate, magic will dominate and just as much as they did back in the day. They won't get the bring the league from the dead credit, obviously, but they offensive dominance will negate their defensive drop in this day and age.
There are about 100 European players in the league of about 450 players today. The number of European players in the 80s was only a couple, so negligible.1980-1981: 24.3% of players were White American
1990-1991: 22.6% of players were White Americans
2003-2004: 16% of players were White Americans
2013-2014: 9.9% of players were White Americans
It's a little unfair that the 80s players were allowed to play vs. such an abundance of them, tbh
Taking that into account, I can deduce that the number of black American players in 1980 was about 76% and the number drops to 65%. Does that mean that 11% of black American players were red league players as well?
This is not even close to the largest decline. Why do you harp on this time period?
Boom goes the dynamite.
My thoughts above ...
I don't think I have ever read anything more stupid than some of this . Comparing Matt Bonner to Larry Bird? Larry Bird would be a fringe D league player today? Insane. Sometimes freedom of speech is a mother er.
The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh..just 2 seasons ago, in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans, an increase, actually
I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player
Last edited by HarlemHeat37; 12-01-2015 at 09:32 AM.
What's the difference between white american players and white european/south american players?The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh.,even in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans
I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player
European/International players are much more skilled than White American players, tbh..they played a progressive style of basketball well before today's NBA diverted to the current style of shooting/spacing/ball movement, etc..they learn to play in more compe ive, better organized leagues vs. veteran players, rather than the NCAA and it's terrible style of basketball..at a young age, they also learn the necessary skills to off-set the lack of athleticism in comparison to their Black counterparts(and aid longevity), unlike White American players that generally peak in college-style ball that doesn't translate well to real basketball..
White American players are not only unathletic for the most part, but they're also lacking in skills outside of spot-up shooting..
Fair enough, I agree. Who are the best white american players right now? Hayward? Love? Arguably not even top 20.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
