Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 289101112
Results 276 to 292 of 292
  1. #276
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
    Location
    Corpus Christi
    Post Count
    10,363
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Air Force Falcons
    There is more than one reference to Joggins out there. The interesting thing about the trees is that they sit in situ with complete root structures and everything. And the roots are penetrating the coal seams.

    And what is the difference in porosity between the minerals involved in petrification as opposed to the surrounding strata?
    Methane and Hydrogen don't really care what the porosity of the petrified wood would be. Hydrogen, in particular will seep into everything (even into diamonds).

    Look, I respect your opinion. You present extremely well thought out arguments and will usually back them up coherently. I assume based on prior 'conversations' with you that you've embraced the prevailing scientific time-scales and theory. On that same assumption I also know that you believe in a Deity. And while you may whole-heartedly believe that belief in one does not negate belief in the other... I just don't accept those theories with the same conviction you do. Again, I allow for the possibility that maybe earth is young, that dinosaurs may have co-existed with man. It may be true, or it may be incorrect. Either way, it has not conclusively been disproven. What's worse is that I don't believe it can be proven one way or the other.

    You keep pressing me on that alleged 'false dichotomy' but consider this:

    If you haven't noticed, a huge knock around here seems to be that if one believes in GOD... that they do so irrationally and not with a sane foundation. GOD is not a 2+2=4 argument... He was meant to be experienced on a level, or dimension if you will, that is not defined by naturalism. And yet people continue to seek Him out on that premise; one which is incongruent with His character.

    Anyhow, one can in fact come to the rational conclusion that GOD does exist, it says so in Romans Chapter 1 (one of my favorite passages if you haven't already noticed). But that realization is not GOD's preferred route of contact. He wishes to meet us, when the inner longing of our soul reaches out to Him first. Unfortunately, many live a long fruitless life of 'emptiness' well before reaching this humbling conclusion. And many others reject His invitation altogether.

    Regardless, you may feel inclined to question my base beliefs all you want. Just don't assume that somehow, I'm misguided, as tlongII suggested. We've all different life's experiences. And mine has allowed me to find GOD both rationally and spiritually. The fact of the matter is He is very real and present in my life. Judeo-Christian beliefs may not completely reveal His character, according to some... but I believe that they most genuinely reveal His purpose.

  2. #277
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    Location
    Dublin
    Post Count
    13,614
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Methane and Hydrogen don't really care what the porosity of the petrified wood would be. Hydrogen, in particular will seep into everything (even into diamonds).

    Look, I respect your opinion. You present extremely well thought out arguments and will usually back them up coherently. I assume based on prior 'conversations' with you that you've embraced the prevailing scientific time-scales and theory. On that same assumption I also know that you believe in a Deity. And while you may whole-heartedly believe that belief in one does not negate belief in the other... I just don't accept those theories with the same conviction you do. Again, I allow for the possibility that maybe earth is young, that dinosaurs may have co-existed with man. It may be true, or it may be incorrect. Either way, it has not conclusively been disproven. What's worse is that I don't believe it can be proven one way or the other.

    You keep pressing me on that alleged 'false dichotomy' but consider this:

    If you haven't noticed, a huge knock around here seems to be that if one believes in GOD... that they do so irrationally and not with a sane foundation. GOD is not a 2+2=4 argument... He was meant to be experienced on a level, or dimension if you will, that is not defined by naturalism. And yet people continue to seek Him out on that premise; one which is incongruent with His character.

    Anyhow, one can in fact come to the rational conclusion that GOD does exist, it says so in Romans Chapter 1 (one of my favorite passages if you haven't already noticed). But that realization is not GOD's preferred route of contact. He wishes to meet us, when the inner longing of our soul reaches out to Him first. Unfortunately, many live a long fruitless life of 'emptiness' well before reaching this humbling conclusion. And many others reject His invitation altogether.

    Regardless, you may feel inclined to question my base beliefs all you want. Just don't assume that somehow, I'm misguided, as tlongII suggested. We've all different life's experiences. And mine has allowed me to find GOD both rationally and spiritually. The fact of the matter is He is very real and present in my life. Judeo-Christian beliefs may not completely reveal His character, according to some... but I believe that they most genuinely reveal His purpose.
    Of course a belief in God can be arrived at rationally. It simply cannot be arrived at deductively, nor is it meant to.

    You bring up Romans 1. Paul says that since creation makes it clear there is a God, men are without excuse. So if someone looks at creation and concludes, "there is no God," I don't think you are going to argue them into theism. It takes a change of heart.

    When I was a college student, I was an avowed creationist. Evolution was ridiculous, of course. Those scientists just had an agenda. Satan had blinded them, of course. They were ignoring the obvious.

    Well, then, years later, as I continued to study the Bible, I came to understand that the Hebrews who wrote the Tanakh don't process thoughts like you and I do because they were not a bunch of Westerners trained in the scientific method. Their entire frame of reference when writing is different from how we as Westerners read it.

    See, to an ancient Hebrew, if you were to explain to them something like how crops grow, they would look at you like a calf looks at a new gate. Those details don't matter to them. God did it. That is the big picture. Can't you see that, silly American? You spend all this time explaining the details of how God did it. What does that matter?

    It also occurred to me that God chose the Jews as his chosen people. Not the Greeks. Not the British. Not any Westerners, but rather the Hebrews of several thousand years ago herding sheep and growing grain out in a desert backwater. That means something.

    It also occurred to me that God is not just the God of scientific, linear-thinking Westerners, but of everyone who ever has lived, most of whom are not highly-educated, and that his Word is tailored primarily to them. Not because it is a faith for the stupid, but rather because He loves all people, not just the ones with special knowledge, and wants them to hear and understand the Gospel and be saved.

    That bears out when comparing Christianity to, say, Buddhism, which has a much more developed, detailed, and well-rounded worldview. God did not give us his Word so that we could have such a sophisticated worldview. It is nice to have, but as Paul says in Corinthians, the gospel is a stumbling block to the wise.

    The root of Christianity is not a high-faluting philosophy that explains everything in the world, but rather a relationship with a person.

    So after arriving at those kinds of conclusions, at some point later I was reintroduced to the whole creation vs. evolution debate. Except, this time the stakes were not as high, because I had come to understand that God was God regardless of which conclusions I came to. And while the scientific mainstream view certainly has a lot of holes and unanswered questions, nobody would ever come to the conclusions that the world was spontaneously created 6,000 years ago, or that there was a global flood that created most of the world's geological features, unless they first read it in the Bible.

    And these creationist outlets are not shy about that. They clearly say that the world has to be 6,000 years old and there has to have been a global flood, because that's what they see in the Bible, and if it's not true, then Christianity is not true either. And with those kinds of stakes, there is absolutely no way you're going to get intellectual honesty out of people.

    If someone is in a position that their faith is going to be crushed if they have to accept that creation science is a load of hooey, then there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that is going to sway them, and they will keep on arguing until either they are blue in the face or everybody else just gives up out of apathy or fatigue.

    The reason I cannot stand this is because it makes it rather straightforward to argue that Christianity is false to the uncommitted observer. And based upon my experiences, such a conclusion would stem from a wholly erroneous and procrustean understanding of the meaning and purpose of God's written Word. They are totally missing the boat, and making their foes' arguments for them.
    Last edited by Extra Stout; 01-14-2007 at 01:22 AM.

  3. #278
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
    Location
    Hell
    Post Count
    57,943
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Texas A&M Aggies
    Great post.

  4. #279
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
    Post Count
    7,583
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Understatement.^^^^

  5. #280
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
    Location
    The Gables
    Post Count
    13,278
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Texas Longhorns
    I'm not about to list my degrees or my credentials
    for the 30th time

  6. #281
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
    Location
    Bs. As.
    Post Count
    11,756
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    to the power of 1234567890987654321

  7. #282
    Esse quam videri ploto's Avatar
    Post Count
    10,994
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    I have stayed away from these discussions for some time because of how they usually turn out, but for me it is really a simple concept. My faith and reading of the Bible is meant for the spiritual guidance in my life- and that faith is in no way jeopardized by scientists or historians. I don't need to believe that the world was specifically created in 6 24-hour periods in order to believe that God is ultimately responsible for its creation. The creation story to me is meant to speak about man's place in the world that God designed and does not need be a literal account. My faith is not so weak that it will be destroyed if something is not literally true. It does not need to be. I can believe that God inspired man to write the scriptures for the purpose for which it was intended- in the time in which it was written- and by and for the people for which it was written. To act as if it like a 21st century do ent is in my view missing a big part of what some parts of it even mean. I guess what I am saying is that it just isn't an either or for me; I have no problem with both. And there are plenty of Christians who don't either.

  8. #283
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
    Location
    Corpus Christi
    Post Count
    10,363
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Air Force Falcons
    Of course a belief in God can be arrived at rationally. It simply cannot be arrived at deductively, nor is it meant to.

    You bring up Romans 1. Paul says that since creation makes it clear there is a God, men are without excuse. So if someone looks at creation and concludes, "there is no God," I don't think you are going to argue them into theism. It takes a change of heart.

    When I was a college student, I was an avowed creationist. Evolution was ridiculous, of course. Those scientists just had an agenda. Satan had blinded them, of course. They were ignoring the obvious.

    Well, then, years later, as I continued to study the Bible, I came to understand that the Hebrews who wrote the Tanakh don't process thoughts like you and I do because they were not a bunch of Westerners trained in the scientific method. Their entire frame of reference when writing is different from how we as Westerners read it.

    See, to an ancient Hebrew, if you were to explain to them something like how crops grow, they would look at you like a calf looks at a new gate. Those details don't matter to them. God did it. That is the big picture. Can't you see that, silly American? You spend all this time explaining the details of how God did it. What does that matter?

    It also occurred to me that God chose the Jews as his chosen people. Not the Greeks. Not the British. Not any Westerners, but rather the Hebrews of several thousand years ago herding sheep and growing grain out in a desert backwater. That means something.

    It also occurred to me that God is not just the God of scientific, linear-thinking Westerners, but of everyone who ever has lived, most of whom are not highly-educated, and that his Word is tailored primarily to them. Not because it is a faith for the stupid, but rather because He loves all people, not just the ones with special knowledge, and wants them to hear and understand the Gospel and be saved.

    That bears out when comparing Christianity to, say, Buddhism, which has a much more developed, detailed, and well-rounded worldview. God did not give us his Word so that we could have such a sophisticated worldview. It is nice to have, but as Paul says in Corinthians, the gospel is a stumbling block to the wise.

    The root of Christianity is not a high-faluting philosophy that explains everything in the world, but rather a relationship with a person.

    So after arriving at those kinds of conclusions, at some point later I was reintroduced to the whole creation vs. evolution debate. Except, this time the stakes were not as high, because I had come to understand that God was God regardless of which conclusions I came to. And while the scientific mainstream view certainly has a lot of holes and unanswered questions, nobody would ever come to the conclusions that the world was spontaneously created 6,000 years ago, or that there was a global flood that created most of the world's geological features, unless they first read it in the Bible.

    And these creationist outlets are not shy about that. They clearly say that the world has to be 6,000 years old and there has to have been a global flood, because that's what they see in the Bible, and if it's not true, then Christianity is not true either. And with those kinds of stakes, there is absolutely no way you're going to get intellectual honesty out of people.

    If someone is in a position that their faith is going to be crushed if they have to accept that creation science is a load of hooey, then there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that is going to sway them, and they will keep on arguing until either they are blue in the face or everybody else just gives up out of apathy or fatigue.

    The reason I cannot stand this is because it makes it rather straightforward to argue that Christianity is false to the uncommitted observer. And based upon my experiences, such a conclusion would stem from a wholly erroneous and procrustean understanding of the meaning and purpose of God's written Word. They are totally missing the boat, and making their foes' arguments for them.
    You essentially echo what I've written in these threads. "Belief in GOD is not dependent on scientific proof." But you've misinterpreted my purpose; I'm not here to "argue people into Theism", I'm here to show that people's 'naturalistic' beliefs can be rationally reconciled with belief in GOD. More importantly, that these beliefs are spiritually fueled by His very real presence in our lives. One need not be considered an inferior individual simply because they also believe in GOD... and people around here seem to imply that said belief is a handicap. Furthermore, don't assume that I'm a staunch Creationist simply because I'm open to the possibility that Genesis can be interpreted both literally, poetically and symbolically. I'm open to the possibility that the passages can be interpreted any number of ways. I will however, not budge from my core belief that GOD created the Universe and everything therein, and that He alone is the author of LIFE.

    You should realize that the majority of the people posting in this thread already had their minds made up well before I said anything on the matter. In fact, I'm not even arguing over semantical controversies with my fellow Deists/Christians. I'm just trying to explain to those that hold "Science and Naturalism" as their catch all foundation that their own religion, is not as full-proof as what they are trying to subject belief in GOD to. Sure, they may say... "our theories are the best explanation out there, and they are continually evolving to explain our universe better." But they inherently believe that the Natural world excludes belief in GOD since He cannot not be deductively proven, to borrow your word. They do not realize that certain highly significant evolutionary concepts cannot be deductively proven either... and yet somehow they manage to accept those without question.

    Furthermore, they constantly tear at the Bible's authenticity, relevance, and continue to imply that man purposely edited the text to suit their beliefs. The bible's historical record accurately mirrors the historical record as deducted from secular do ents. So why would the accuracy of the other content be questioned? Because it is inconvenient to their world view? Because it would follow that the existence of a higher moral code was established by GOD Himself? Oh no! not that!!!!

    You're right about one thing though. Belief in GOD does require a change of heart. And yes, I'm fully aware that GOD is the only one than can work with them to arrive at that change.

    I'm not afraid, ashamed or belittled to let others know that I believe in GOD. He is my banner.

  9. #284
    Esse quam videri ploto's Avatar
    Post Count
    10,994
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Even Jesus spoke in parables so why would it be unfathomable for people to believe that the Bible is full of allegorical writing, as well.

  10. #285
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    Location
    Dublin
    Post Count
    13,614
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    It certainly is presumptuous to claim that a theistic belief somehow is inferior or unsophisticated compared to atheistic or agnostic belief, or that it is a handicap. Now I will say that rigid fundamentalism is an intellectual handicap. But I don't think that either you or I qualify as rigid fundamentalists, except in the shallow caricatures of those who prefer to stigmatize those who disagree with them rather than deepen their own thinking.

    Science and naturalism work just fine within their own sphere. One can come deductively to conclusions about how something on the earth came to be how it is, or how the heavens came to look the way they do, or how a living creature is the way it is. These mechanisms can come to be understood. Where naturalists fall afoul is when they arrogate that science and reason are the be-all, end-all of knowledge, and that every question we might have about life, and God, and values, can be answered through reason.

    You cannot deductively jump from "the origin of species on Earth today is best explained by the theory of evolution" to "there is no God." Can't be done. A person may choose to infer there is no God absent evidence to the contrary, but they cannot deduce it. So when a person wraps themselves up in science and naturalism as proof of their philosophy and worldview, this is intellectually untenable.

    You hear the same group of people claim that morals and values would be much stronger in the world if they were based upon reason rather than religion. How can this be so? Now reason is great to move from core values and principles to application in specific situations, but how is reason alone going to define those core values? It is like saying that if given only a set of tools, somebody can build a house. Well, sure, maybe science gives us the best set of tools available, but we need to have some notion of what it is we are building first!

    I find the arguments about biblical authenticity often to be a strawman. Of course, fundamentalists set themselves up for this rather easily. When you claim that your faith depends upon the absolute inerrancy of the Bible down the last detail, then your faith becomes readily falsifiable when one detail in the Bible is disproved. And trying to maintain such a hermeneutic requires an arcane and bersome explanation of every last detail constantly teetering on the brink of collapse! "Well, Quirinius must have been governor of Syria twice, or maybe Luke meant something different by 'governor,' or maybe there were two censuses and Josephus forgot one of them." "Sure, Nineveh could have had all those people a couple hundred years before the Assyrian Empire rose! And it is entirely reasonable that a human could survive in the digestive tract of a marine mammal!" That gets back to the whole Western-idea-of-truth thing.

    So of course, Bliblical skeptics find a much easier fight just to assume that every Christian holds the fundamentalist view, since the fundies, unwittingly with cultural biases that line up with the naturalists in kind if not in sophistication, make their foes' arguments for them (as I said before). It is much harder to call Biblical manuscripts into question when comparing them against any other do ents of antiquity, because by that standard, they are by far the most numerous and the most reliable.

    It also makes for an easy strawman to assume that all Scripture is written in the same style with the same intent, or that nobody prior to the common era had any comments upon it that might shed light on difficult or culturally incongruent passages. (Though, once again, the fundamentalists help to erect these strawmen, because they make the same assumptions.) I find this especially amusing when 'scholars' act as if Gnostic writings are some kind of great new revelation and insight into the Bible!

    But none of this is new. People, especially the free thinkers, tend to probe and question authority and e skeptical of what they've been told. That is fine. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking answers. However, people will tend to prefer the answers they want to hear.

  11. #286
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
    Post Count
    41,384
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    you cant handle the truth!

  12. #287
    SW: Hot As Hell
    Post Count
    7,069
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    We just have to ask ourselves one question:

    Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god himself couldn't touch it?

  13. #288
    Mrs.Useruser666 SpursWoman's Avatar
    Name
    Christy
    Post Count
    27,175
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs




  14. #289
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
    Location
    Corpus Christi
    Post Count
    10,363
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Air Force Falcons
    We just have to ask ourselves one question:

    Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god himself couldn't touch it?



    Did you recently get burned by a microwaved burrito???

  15. #290
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
    Location
    Corpus Christi
    Post Count
    10,363
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    College
    Air Force Falcons
    It certainly is presumptuous to claim that a theistic belief somehow is inferior or unsophisticated compared to atheistic or agnostic belief, or that it is a handicap. Now I will say that rigid fundamentalism is an intellectual handicap. But I don't think that either you or I qualify as rigid fundamentalists, except in the shallow caricatures of those who prefer to stigmatize those who disagree with them rather than deepen their own thinking.

    Science and naturalism work just fine within their own sphere. One can come deductively to conclusions about how something on the earth came to be how it is, or how the heavens came to look the way they do, or how a living creature is the way it is. These mechanisms can come to be understood. Where naturalists fall afoul is when they arrogate that science and reason are the be-all, end-all of knowledge, and that every question we might have about life, and God, and values, can be answered through reason.

    You cannot deductively jump from "the origin of species on Earth today is best explained by the theory of evolution" to "there is no God." Can't be done. A person may choose to infer there is no God absent evidence to the contrary, but they cannot deduce it. So when a person wraps themselves up in science and naturalism as proof of their philosophy and worldview, this is intellectually untenable.

    You hear the same group of people claim that morals and values would be much stronger in the world if they were based upon reason rather than religion. How can this be so? Now reason is great to move from core values and principles to application in specific situations, but how is reason alone going to define those core values? It is like saying that if given only a set of tools, somebody can build a house. Well, sure, maybe science gives us the best set of tools available, but we need to have some notion of what it is we are building first!

    I find the arguments about biblical authenticity often to be a strawman. Of course, fundamentalists set themselves up for this rather easily. When you claim that your faith depends upon the absolute inerrancy of the Bible down the last detail, then your faith becomes readily falsifiable when one detail in the Bible is disproved. And trying to maintain such a hermeneutic requires an arcane and bersome explanation of every last detail constantly teetering on the brink of collapse! "Well, Quirinius must have been governor of Syria twice, or maybe Luke meant something different by 'governor,' or maybe there were two censuses and Josephus forgot one of them." "Sure, Nineveh could have had all those people a couple hundred years before the Assyrian Empire rose! And it is entirely reasonable that a human could survive in the digestive tract of a marine mammal!" That gets back to the whole Western-idea-of-truth thing.

    So of course, Bliblical skeptics find a much easier fight just to assume that every Christian holds the fundamentalist view, since the fundies, unwittingly with cultural biases that line up with the naturalists in kind if not in sophistication, make their foes' arguments for them (as I said before). It is much harder to call Biblical manuscripts into question when comparing them against any other do ents of antiquity, because by that standard, they are by far the most numerous and the most reliable.

    It also makes for an easy strawman to assume that all Scripture is written in the same style with the same intent, or that nobody prior to the common era had any comments upon it that might shed light on difficult or culturally incongruent passages. (Though, once again, the fundamentalists help to erect these strawmen, because they make the same assumptions.) I find this especially amusing when 'scholars' act as if Gnostic writings are some kind of great new revelation and insight into the Bible!

    But none of this is new. People, especially the free thinkers, tend to probe and question authority and e skeptical of what they've been told. That is fine. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking answers. However, people will tend to prefer the answers they want to hear.
    I agree.

  16. #291
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
    Post Count
    3,396
    NBA Team
    Sacramento Kings
    We just have to ask ourselves one question:

    Could god microwave a burrito so hot that even god himself couldn't touch it?
    I'm pretty sure those old school McDonalds apple pies were too hot even for God, thus confirming my belief that McDonalds truly is an unholy adbomination.

  17. #292
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    Location
    Dublin
    Post Count
    13,614
    NBA Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    I'm pretty sure those old school McDonalds apple pies were too hot even for God, thus confirming my belief that McDonalds truly is an unholy adbomination.
    I think we all can agree that the wages of sin is McDonalds.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •