Dirk

[endrity]

Really it says it implicitly? I figured it was implied similar to how to its implied that playoff basketball should be more physical. Link please if you dont mind. Regardless though I doubt it includes body checks.



Wait, so youre defense for that foul call is that the defenders hands need to be straight up in a 90 degree angle and anything less is a foul because they would be invading Dirk's space? That seems pretty ridiculous for a jump shot, I mean given that logic if a guy blocks a shot before the player releases the ball wouldnt that be a foul? Since its practically impossible to block a shot before its out of the players hand standing at a 90 degree angle unless the player jumps straight into your outstretched hands. Correct me if Im wrong but that hand straight up thing only applies in the paint when a player is attacking the basket or if the defender is set with both his feet planted. You wouldve been better off arguing the body check tbh, although upon further review Dirk himself bumps into him so even that argument wouldnt hold much truth. And if we really want to be rulebook nazis Dirk's pushoff to create space is in actuality an offensive foul.

No, it's an offensive foul only when Mason has an established position, which Mason clearly doesn't, and they are fighting to get to a spot on the court.

Yes, hands have to be straight up and it's pretty reasonable. If they are above my head and as I go up for a shot my head or the rest of the body is hit by them, which is what happens to add to the body check, it's clearly impeding my ability to get of a shot. And no, basketball players are taught at a very young age to always keep their hands straight up no matter the place on the court. So your distinction doesn't apply here.

Sorry, but that's a textbook foul. And that's what you're gonna get all series long if you keep sending players half a foot shorter than Dirk to defend him. These guys have no real chance on defense on Dirk, other than to get underneath him and try to be physical which clearly raises the probability of committing a foul.

Is is that much a surprise that Dirk gets a lot of fouls on Spurs called this way? After all these years in the reg season and the playoffs do you honestly believe that the refs are out to help Dirk specifically against the Spurs moreso than against other teams at times? Or is it more likely that you have yet to find a decent, just decent, defender to put on Dirk, but rely on people who are physically overmatched when guarding him? By 06 Dirk had completely solved the Bowen/Marion types of defenders. Yet you guys keep throwing these types of players at him, actually even worse than Bowen in their ability to defend, and are honestly this surprised? This is even worse than Nellie complaining about calls Shaq would get when we put 6'4 people on him early in the decade.

[mogrovejo]

I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the cir stances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList

[FkLA]

No, it's an offensive foul only when Mason has an established position, which Mason clearly doesn't, and they are fighting to get to a spot on the court.

Yes, hands have to be straight up and it's pretty reasonable. If they are above my head and as I go up for a shot my head or the rest of the body is hit by them, which is what happens to add to the body check, it's clearly impeding my ability to get of a shot. And no, basketball players are taught at a very young age to always keep their hands straight up no matter the place on the court. So your distinction doesn't apply here.

Sorry, but that's a textbook foul. And that's what you're gonna get all series long if you keep sending players half a foot shorter than Dirk to defend him. These guys have no real chance on defense on Dirk, other than to get underneath him and try to be physical which clearly raises the probability of committing a foul.

Is is that much a surprise that Dirk gets a lot of fouls on Spurs called this way? After all these years in the reg season and the playoffs do you honestly believe that the refs are out to help Dirk specifically against the Spurs moreso than against other teams at times? Or is it more likely that you have yet to find a decent, just decent, defender to put on Dirk, but rely on people who are physically overmatched when guarding him? By 06 Dirk had completely solved the Bowen/Marion types of defenders. Yet you guys keep throwing these types of players at him, actually even worse than Bowen in their ability to defend, and are honestly this surprised? This is even worse than Nellie complaining about calls Shaq would get when we put 6'4 people on him early in the decade.

Well Dirk is the one with his head down and bulldozing through Mason, so its kind of hard to establish pos ion considering that. And right before the shot Mason is in front of him and Dirk does push his body into him to create the space. Whatever though I thought it was a good no call, Im just saying if we use your rulebook nazi logic that is a foul. If the refs are going to be rulebook nazis they need to be that on every possession and not just in favor of Dirk.

Regarding the hands straight up thing...sorry but thats ridiculous. Do you have have any idea how small the percentage of perimeter players that contest a jump shot with their hands straight up is? Look at any highlight of any game, hands on contested shots are rarely ever in a 90 degree angle. Practically every ing shot attempt would be a foul using that invading air space logic. Its silly really. Like I said accept and be grateful that Dirk gets bogus calls and move on, no need to defend the indefensible.

[endrity]

I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the cir stances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList

First of all thanks for actually going and finding the rules. Couldn't be bothered to.

Second, on Manu. I will agree that his cir stances have made his career a bit underrated, coming to the NBA late, being in a contender, allowing Pop to use him as a bench player etc. He clearly is a great player, and in a team all of his own could have easily averaged 22-23 pts at least. In a fair world he would have 4-5 All Star appearances and All-NBA teams.

The question is not this however. It's whether he is better than Dirk, career wise, or at their absolute best-wise. That, to me and others, seems far fetched. Do you disagree with that?

[FkLA]

Keep in mind, this isnt Phil Jackson...Pop rarely makes statements like these about opposing players and even here he tries to say it in the most subtle way.

"What you can do is not foul him to death," Popovich said. "I thought sometimes we fouled him, sometimes we didn't. But you know what's going to happen in a game. You get calls one way or the other. He's great at selling it. He did a good job of shooting the basketball, getting in positions to get fouled, all that sort of thing. And we didn't play him very smart in that respect. We put him on the line more than we should have. He did make some tough shots there, no doubt about it, but he's also a Hall-of-Fame player so he's going to make those shots. It's not like it's the first time he's made a tough shot, that's for sure."

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...-at-selling-it

I'm not sure what you're discussing. It's always been my opinion that Ginobili is hugely underrated - due to the cir stances of his NBA career. I'll elaborate on this later.

FKLA,

From the NBA rules book:


Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12...av=ArticleList

I figured that much (the forearm on the back part)...I was referring to more body contact though (body checking). For instance the defender having his hands straight up but crowding the offensive player with his body--a call that Dirk gets alot out on the perimeter but that for some reason is allowed in the paint despite it not being implicitly stated in the rulebook.

[mogrovejo]

I believe I was the one being asked to find the rules.

Ginobili to me has been a top-10, top-15 player in the NBA for most of his career. Top-10 in his best years. If he was playing 36 mpg, as the primary playmaker/shotcreator for his team, as the uncontested best player in his team, as most of the guys in his talent tier are, he'd put up 23/6/6 numbers + above average defense and his reputation would be completely different. He'd have a couple All-NBA teams under his belt.

Nowitzki was an outside contender for the MVP for some years, top-5 player. Not a strong contender because doesn't do nothing besides scoring at a MVP level. All-NBA level for basically the entire decade. So I think Nowitzki has been a step above Ginobili for most of his career. Not 2 or 3 steps though.

I think Ginobili in his prime was a better player than anyone in the Pistons championship team.

[mogrovejo]

I said after the game that the Spurs defenders weren't disciplined and smart enough defending Dirk. Use your hips, don't reach with your hands. Of course he's going to sell the fouls, it's his job.

[endrity]

FkLA, I don't know why Pop is held to a different level of scrutiny than PJax. Every coach tries to get an advantage from the refs.

What he is saying is pretty much what I said earlier. If you put guys like these on Dirk, then they have to be near perfect in defense not to get called for fouls. And of course Dirk is gonna sell any contact, if he got it why not?

Mo, we clearly have a disagreement on Dirk as evidenced by a Dirk v. KG debate we had some weeks ago here. I am not getting into that now, it's 3 am over here anyway. Thank you for admitting that Dirk is a superior player to Manu at the very least.

One little fact though, at his prime Dirk was not an outside contender for MVP. He was three times in the top 3, winning once. That is a front runner to me. He led the league twice in PER, so whatever he does out there, he is one of an efficient machine.

[FkLA]

I said after the game that the Spurs defenders weren't disciplined and smart enough defending Dirk. Use your hips, don't reach with your hands. Of course he's going to sell the fouls, it's his job.

My point exactly with the hips (body checks)...


You do know that considering how Dirk goes flying after his release, even when players simply use their hips and thrust themselves onto Dirk to crowd him its normally a foul? Hence this thread on why I think Dirk is a severely underrated flopper.

FkLA, I don't know why Pop is held to a different level of scrutiny than PJax. Every coach tries to get an advantage from the refs.

What he is saying is pretty much what I said earlier. If you put guys like these on Dirk, then they have to be near perfect in defense not to get called for fouls. And of course Dirk is gonna sell any contact, if he got it why not?

It holds alot more weight coming from Pop dont you think? PJ will whine about opposing players and refs numerous times a series, Pop not so much.

So you agree that he is an underrated flopper, which was the reason behind this thread?

[mogrovejo]

One little fact though, at his prime Dirk was not an outside contender for MVP. He was three times in the top 3, winning once. That is a front runner to me. He led the league twice in PER, so whatever he does out there, he is one of an efficient machine.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't talking from a formal perspective. I thought there were always 2/3 guys a step above Dirk every season though.

[endrity]

My point exactly with the hips (body checks)...


You do know that considering how Dirk goes flying after his release, even when players simply use their hips and thrust themselves onto Dirk to crowd him its normally a foul? Hence this thread on why I think Dirk is a severely underrated flopper.



It holds alot more weight coming from Pop dont you think? PJ will whine about opposing players and refs numerous times a series, Pop not so much.

So you agree that he is an underrated flopper, which was the reason behind this thread?

the reason of the thread was that Dirk got calls in Game 1 he didn't deserve. It's been established he didn't. Every player flops/sells contact. Superstars, given they have the ball in their hands more than anyone, do even more so. Duncan, Kobe, Melo, Wade, CP3 all do. Even LeBron protested he didn't get the callls he deserves. Damn, Durant is becoming great at selling contact in just his third year, so much so that you can't even breathe on the guy.

[endrity]

Yeah, I know, I wasn't talking from a formal perspective. I thought there were always 2/3 guys a step above Dirk every season though.

PER wise not in 06 and 07.

And even on a more subjective level, only Kobe arguably had a better individual season in 06 which was overshadowed by the horrible team he played in. Don't even know what to say about 07. Dirk was about as focused as you can be all season long. He, more than anyone else, was the reason for the Mavs going on a 50-5 run at one point. Anyway, I am not getting into this now. Some other day ok?

p.s I haven't heard your Euroleague predictions yet. I've had this feeling for some reason that CSKA is going to ruin the party again for Barca.

[mavsfan1000]

Dirk is amazing. By far our best player.

[Ghazi]

Dirk is amazing. By far our best player.

only cause J-Ho was traded

LMAO J-Ho > Dirk

[ezau]

Dirk doesn't know anything but to score. He is highly talented, but I still think he's overrated for much of his career. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

[mavsfan1000]

only cause J-Ho was traded

LMAO J-Ho > Dirk

You don't remember how good Howard was at one point I guess. He was a lockdown defender, rebounder, and scorer. He had it all. We were 2 games from the championship and he was a big part of it. Also I hate some of the mavs fans on this site and like to troll. lol

[endrity]

Dirk doesn't know anything but to score. He is highly talented, but I still think he's overrated for much of his career. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

This again??? I was actually pleased at the highly intellectual level this thread reached with FkLA and Mogrojevo.

Dirk easily outperforms his regular season stats, is a 25 and 11 guy in the playoffs putting him in some really rare company.

But you'd be well advised to read what the thread was about. Given the threads you start on the Spurs section you definitely need some better information regarding what a foul is in the NBA.

[dude1394]

Pops works the refs just like every other coach. Thinking that somehow pop "doesn't" is very selective memory.

[dirk4mvp]

. Check his playoff performance and you can the read the word choke written all over it

You mean where he's one of a handful of guys who averages 25 and 11 in the postseason? Are you re ed?

[dude1394]

You mean where he's one of a handful of guys who averages 25 and 11 in the postseason? Are you re ed?

I think the term is special.

[dirk4mvp]

I think the term is special.

Interchangeable, tbh.

[ezau]

This again??? I was actually pleased at the highly intellectual level this thread reached with FkLA and Mogrojevo.

Dirk easily outperforms his regular season stats, is a 25 and 11 guy in the playoffs putting him in some really rare company.

But you'd be well advised to read what the thread was about. Given the threads you start on the Spurs section you definitely need some better information regarding what a foul is in the NBA.

You can suck Dirk's ball all you want but nothing can erase what happened in 2006 and 2007. Dirk will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Unless of course he gets his together by winning an LOB. If he wins a championship, no one's going to question his greatness as a player ever.

[badfish22]

typical spurfan way of thinking

[ezau]

I think the term is special.

Special, but ringless. Guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone, and Dirk belong in one cluter.

[endrity]

You can suck Dirk's ball all you want but nothing can erase what happened in 2006 and 2007. Dirk will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Unless of course he gets his together by winning an LOB. If he wins a championship, no one's going to question his greatness as a player ever.

I'll stick to my facts, you stick to your urban myths