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Sabonis is Russian. How come he didn't get those eastern bloc training methods that would allow him to be the athletic equivalents of today's uber athletes?
Boom....
ya that's convincing
Sabonis is Russian. How come he didn't get those eastern bloc training methods that would allow him to be the athletic equivalents of today's uber athletes?
This is why it's useless debating with you. Any "modern" video clip of a basketball player doing something you'll re edly overrate. There's nothing special about her dribbling. And her jumpshot is laughably . The clips I posted of Hakeem's ball handling (clips from the 80's) are far, far superior. Although the comparison is unfair obviously.The great Niko Gallis, Jordan of Europe dominated Sabonis.
This 5th grade girl has better handles than most 80's players tbh:
BTW, Boban didn't play against "superior" compe ion (was his European compe ion superior? Sure. But who cares. European basketball is the tiest from a defensive standpoint. Then and now). A no knees Sabonis played in the NBA and averaged 14.5 and .545 shooting as a rookie in '96 (one year before Duncan came into the league), during a period when the center position was much bigger overall and more athletic. Maybe Boban has some potential, but until he becomes a decent rotation player, I'd hold off on making silly comparisons.
Anyhow, we're never going to agree. Although we do agree there has been an evolution, we just don't agree on the extent of that evolution. I see a logical, reasonable progression (on both the skill and athletic side) over the past 20-30 years, nothing so revolutionary that automatically makes players from past eras amateur by comparison (and the evidence backs me with how players progress as the sport progresses). When I watch an NBA or NFL game, I see the results of that reasonable progression.
What you see is this:
I know they worked hard. But what you continually fail to understand is that "athleticism" is 99.99% the result of genetics, and unless Professor X is around creating mutants, that genetic hard-wiring hasn't changed. What can be changed and changed dramatically through hard work is skills. And skills can be learned, meaning there is no magical barrier preventing veteran players from evolving their skill sets to keep up. Bird did it into the early 90's, and might've played until 96/97 if he was healthier. Pick any professional player in any sport, track their 15-20 year careers, and see the adjustment. Jerry Rice wasn't suddenly when the NFL was moving toward the taller receivers in the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens mold. In '02, he was a Pro Bowler and caught 92 passes for over 1300 yards at 40 years old.
Like I keep saying, you ascribe this era magical properties for some odd reason.
Evidence? You have none. Again, this fascination with weights and size. I already debunked that silly Reverse Nostalgia fan pov in an earlier post. Meanwhile I appeal to the very real evidence of older players adjusting to new demands. You can't get around Bird being an all-star level player in '92 (the height of basketball athleticism and skills at the time) or a crippled Magic averaging 14, 7, 6 in '96 (a year before Duncan came into the league). Or Karl Malone, choker as he was, adjusting. You flat ignore these facts because it demolishes your whole argument of 80's players being inherently inferior to your modern Avengers.I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.
That's exactly my point. You finally got it. Players adjust over time, and that "over time" doesn't happen suddenly. Paradigm shifts don't happen overnight. Bird would smoothly have adjusted from the 80's into the 00's (let's say we cut out the 90's). Given his obsessive work ethic, he would gain weight and train up his explosiveness (Bird was deceptively athletic, like Duncan) and other traits if he needed to. Basketball is still very simple and the single most important skill for any player to have is footwork. You have good footwork, you can get any shot you want most of the time. And after that (for a player like Bird), your jumpshot mechanics. Matt Bonner is in both, and it's a miracle he's as a good of shooter he is with that release. Bird's release/mechanics were about technically perfect. He was able to post up taller players like Tom Chambers (who was long and a quick leaper) rather effortlessly. Pippen, Jordan, etc couldn't bother Bird's shot. But this era he's Adam Morrison. No. Not a shred of evidence supports that claim.Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball.
Once you jettison your Reverse Nostalgia fan bias, you'll see things more rationally. I know the Nostalgia fans bother you, but that doesn't mean you have to become as equally re ed with your takes.
Players adapt due to experience, that's their advantage over younger players, Parker-Duncan-Manu aren't as good as they used to be, but they've picked up plenty of veteran moves, their bodies are older (which they have maintained) but their bball iq is much higher. They've been playing this sport for 10+ years while the newer generation takes time to develop, you're impatient and expect too much too early.I know they worked hard. But what you continually fail to understand is that "athleticism" is 99.99% the result of genetics, and unless Professor X is around creating mutants, that genetic hard-wiring hasn't changed. What can be changed and changed dramatically through hard work is skills. And skills can be learned, meaning there is no magical barrier preventing veteran players from evolving their skill sets to keep up. Bird did it into the early 90's, and might've played until 96/97 if he was healthier. Pick any professional player in any sport, track their 15-20 year careers, and see the adjustment. Jerry Rice wasn't suddenly when the NFL was moving toward the taller receivers in the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens mold. In '02, he was a Pro Bowler and caught 92 passes for over 1300 yards at 40 years old.
Like I keep saying, you ascribe this era magical properties for some odd reason.
That goes for any sport, I've seen gold medal winning Olympic boxers dropped against journeymen simply because the vet knows the craft better, he's been doing it a lot longer so it comes naturally to him.
Not really lmao, why are you ignoring the fact that you were referring to the rookie weights of players? Jordan and Pippen were not 220+ like they were in the late 90's, Jordan was in the low 200's, Pippen in the 212lb range.Evidence? You have none. Again, this fascination with weights and size. I already debunked that silly Reverse Nostalgia fan pov in an earlier post. Meanwhile I appeal to the very real evidence of older players adjusting to new demands. You can't get around Bird being an all-star level player in '92 (the height of basketball athleticism and skills at the time) or a crippled Magic averaging 14, 7, 6 in '96 (a year before Duncan came into the league). Or Karl Malone, choker as he was, adjusting. You flat ignore these facts because it demolishes your whole argument of 80's players being inherently inferior to your modern Avengers.
The graphs you provided also proved my point regarding the NFL, things started to stagnate early 70's, strength and conditioning coaches are hired mid 70's, things start to boom. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired S&C coaches at the same time, they didn't. Compare 60's to early 70's players weights to the mid 90's and you'll see the true effect on the NFL.
That's exactly my point. You finally got it. Players adjust over time, and that "over time" doesn't happen suddenly. Paradigm shifts don't happen overnight. Bird would smoothly have adjusted from the 80's into the 00's (let's say we cut out the 90's). Given his obsessive work ethic, he would gain weight and train up his explosiveness (Bird was deceptively athletic, like Duncan) and other traits if he needed to. Basketball is still very simple and the single most important skill for any player to have is footwork. You have good footwork, you can get any shot you want most of the time. And after that (for a player like Bird), your jumpshot mechanics. Matt Bonner is in both, and it's a miracle he's as a good of shooter he is with that release. Bird's release/mechanics were about technically perfect. He was able to post up taller players like Tom Chambers (who was long and a quick leaper) rather effortlessly. Pippen, Jordan, etc couldn't bother Bird's shot. But this era he's Adam Morrison. No. Not a shred of evidence supports that claim.
Once you jettison your Reverse Nostalgia fan bias, you'll see things more rationally. I know the Nostalgia fans bother you, but that doesn't mean you have to become as equally re ed with your takes.
It's been 20+ years since Bird retired, the talent pool, youth development programs, strength and conditioning programs etc. have come a looooong way. It's time to let go, Bird played in a talent pool of tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand atm late in his career, players today are competing with millions, it's no contest.
Compare Marjanovic and Sabonis to each other in the Euro-league, tell me who looked better lol. If Marjanovic was playing in the 80's, you'd be telling me his offense was unstoppable. You're really naive if you believe guys don't master the fundamentals, they do, it just gets overruled in the NBA due to superior athleticism. Guys that are in the league with fundamentals are there because they killed the rest of the compe ion with their athleticism. There is a reason why there is such a big decline in white american bball, they are some of the best fundamental bball players, but it ultimately fails against the league's athletes.
Players like Splitter and Marjanovic were elite offensive players in Europe, they could post, pass, even knock down jumpers.
Jumped OVER a guy from about 13 feet out, and made a finger roll right at the rim.
Big men in the 80s don't have any skills
So not athletic.
The best center for a big part of the last decade, Dwight Howard, can't even make a FT and has horrible post moves.
You're getting it some more. Sports are more than jumping high, cutting quickly, and running fast. They're are primarily based around skills and intelligence. So many super athletes wash out of professional leagues because they are limited in both.
I don't care about their weights in the 80's. Point is, if they got bigger over time, so would Bird or Magic or any other player who need to get bigger. I cite Bird's progression into the early 90's as evidence of him adjusting to new demands and still being an all-star level player. Also, Jordan and Pippen were both worse players in the late 90's compared to the early 90's, and the late 90's was one of the weakest eras in NBA history with expansion diluting everything and the focus moved to isolation play. The early 90's were actually more demanding to play in, and Bird excelled all things considered (bad back, age, etc).Not really lmao, why are you ignoring the fact that you were referring to the rookie weights of players? Jordan and Pippen were not 220+ like they were in the late 90's, Jordan was in the low 200's, Pippen in the 212lb range.
What evidence do you have that Bird couldn't adjust to the modern era? Because Willie Cauley-Stein is somewhat mobile for his size? It's funny how you think you're being "contrarian" but this argument existed in the mid-90's after Bird and Magic (before his comeback) retired. "Bird and Magic could never hang with the super athletes of today!" , that argument existed in the 80's when Bird was winning MVPs. No one believed he could be that good. Isiah Thomas even called him overrated during the era (and then Bird proceeded to smoke the Pistons something fierce).
Learn how to read a graph. Those graphs pretty much show a steady, linear progression, with the exception of o-linemen. Additionally, it pretty much flatlined over over the past 2 decades.The graphs you provided also proved my point regarding the NFL, things started to stagnate early 70's, strength and conditioning coaches are hired mid 70's, things start to boom. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired S&C coaches at the same time, they didn't. Compare 60's to early 70's players weights to the mid 90's and you'll see the true effect on the NFL.
Good players can adjust to any talent pool demands. The biggest leap in this regard was more league integration and the merger, and older vets from those earlier periods weren't instantly rendered obsolete. I'd also argue that youth development is much worse, especially in the US. Basketball camps and such used to teach things, now they're just glorified advertising. And AAU ball is a massive joke. If Kawhi played in the 80's to 90's, he would have come into the league with all the skills he has now. Lucky he was drafted by the Spurs, or he probably would've wound up a Shane Battier level player.It's been 20+ years since Bird retired, the talent pool, youth development programs, strength and conditioning programs etc. have come a looooong way. It's time to let go, Bird played in a talent pool of tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand atm late in his career, players today are competing with millions, it's no contest.
Watch Boban and Sabonis in the NBA, and tell me who looked betterCompare Marjanovic and Sabonis to each other in the Euro-league, tell me who looked better lol. If Marjanovic was playing in the 80's, you'd be telling me his offense was unstoppable. You're really naive if you believe guys don't master the fundamentals, they do, it just gets overruled in the NBA due to superior athleticism. Guys that are in the league with fundamentals are there because they killed the rest of the compe ion with their athleticism. There is a reason why there is such a big decline in white american bball, they are some of the best fundamental bball players, but it ultimately fails against the league's athletes.
Players like Splitter and Marjanovic were elite offensive players in Europe, they could post, pass, even knock down jumpers.
Sabonis was having to deal with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Robinson/Duncan, Mourning, Smits, etc. Boban gets to see 3rd string centers.
For all of the great fundamental offense European players have, their defensive fundamentals are stuck in the 70's. Real talk. They play defense with their hands. It's why players with bad offensive fundamentals (rare for a Euro player typically) can dominate, like Splitter with that laughable post game of his.
White American players aren't that fundamental outside of shooting mechanics. If the AAU/NCAA knew what they were doing, we'd see more white American players like Dirk, prime Peja Pau, and Manu.
Oh, and the proliferation of European players (who are the same ethnic stock as white Americans), pretty much proves that great fundamentals can overcome inferior athleticism. The player most similar to Bird in playing style (sans playmaking and post game), size, and athleticism is Peja, and he wasn't a "Adam Morrison."
Last edited by midnightpulp; 12-03-2015 at 11:31 PM.
WHAT???? U got those guys over bird? Have you ever seen Bird play in his prime and not just youtube highlights?
Not really, players are skilled, but a lot of their skills just get overruled by NBA athleticism. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do when a guy is jumping over you, if you've ever played ball, you'd know this. There are over 5 million kids playing youth basketball in the U.S, you don't think they're learning the fundamentals of the game?You're getting it some more. Sports are more than jumping high, cutting quickly, and running fast. They're are primarily based around skills and intelligence. So many super athletes wash out of professional leagues because they are limited in both.
The 80's back to the basket game and hand checking means you didn't really need to be explosive because the game is so close to the basket, skill sets have changed drastically and you need explosiveness to make the most out of them, they pretty much go hand in hand. A perimeter oriented league forces you further out on the floor, mobility is a must or else you'll get picked apart like Duncan.
It's different chasing a guy around the perimeter at those weights, cutting at those weights, fighting through screens set by 265 PFs and not 215lb PF's, posting up against players that big etc.
I don't care about their weights in the 80's. Point is, if they got bigger over time, so would Bird or Magic or any other player who need to get bigger. I cite Bird's progression into the early 90's as evidence of him adjusting to new demands and still being an all-star level player. Also, Jordan and Pippen were both worse players in the late 90's compared to the early 90's, and the late 90's was one of the weakest eras in NBA history with expansion diluting everything and the focus moved to isolation play. The early 90's were actually more demanding to play in, and Bird excelled all things considered (bad back, age, etc).
Most players did not start lifting until the 90's though, Pippen was still a 212lb stick when he played Bird. In fact Horace Grant was on Bird quite a bit, and although he was a big man, he too was barely in the 215lb range and not the 240lb player that played in the late 90's...But you don't care about their weight, don't care about talent pool, doesn't matter lmao.
Jordan and Pippen didn't get worse, the compe ion got better, these guys were in the 220's late in their careers. The talent pool exploded in the mid to late 80's, got much bigger in the 90's, got even bigger in the 00's. The rate at which the talent pool is expanded is not the same during Bird's time, and it's due in a large part to cable tv.
Humans sort of have something called muscle memory, ever heard of it? In any profession after a certain amount of time movements that you've been repeating start to become effortless and automatic. Vets adapt because they've been playing for a looooong time, it takes time for the newer generation to learn and surpass. Their bodies may not be the same as they were in their primes, but some of their decisions and skills drastically improve.
What evidence do you have that Bird couldn't adjust to the modern era? Because Willie Cauley-Stein is somewhat mobile for his size? It's funny how you think you're being "contrarian" but this argument existed in the mid-90's after Bird and Magic (before his comeback) retired. "Bird and Magic could never hang with the super athletes of today!" , that argument existed in the 80's when Bird was winning MVPs. No one believed he could be that good. Isiah Thomas even called him overrated during the era (and then Bird proceeded to smoke the Pistons something fierce).
Bird would've been a tweener in today's game, do you really think he would be able to guard the likes of Leonard, PG, Lebron, Durant etc? You most likely would've had to put him at PF, but at at his weight he would've gotten bullied.
Cauely Stein is some-what mobile for his size? He can go out on the perimeter and stay with guards at 245lbs, show me 80's bigs his size and that mobile, he weighs the same as Patrick Ewing lmao. Show me 240lb players like Leonard going deep out on the perimeter and challenging guards, I want to see their explosiveness.
Compare the mid 90's NFL to the '65-'75 NFL period which you saw the graph flat line pre-S&C coaches, that's more reflective of the 70's-80's NBA. There is a drastic difference during that time. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired them at the same time, but they didn't.Learn how to read a graph. Those graphs pretty much show a steady, linear progression, with the exception of o-linemen. Additionally, it pretty much flatlined over over the past 2 decades.
But even then, guys are losing/gaining weight based on way the game is currently being played at their position, RB's are probably becoming more compact because it allows them to hit the holes easier, those graphs do not represent how explosive guys are in relation to their weights. A player may be dropping fat but adding muscle, you can't tell from just a graph.
Vets don't just stop getting better as I covered earlier, you get worse in some areas, get better in others. You also generally take on a different role as your career goes on which usually makes the game much easier on you. Magic was playing PF off the bench in his return during a lockout shortened year, he wasn't starting at PG like he was in his prime. Duncan isn't carrying those crappy 00's teams anymore or facing teams like the '07 Cavs, his current role isn't even half of what it used to be.Good players can adjust to any talent pool demands. The biggest leap in this regard was more league integration and the merger, and older vets from those earlier periods weren't instantly rendered obsolete. I'd also argue that youth development is much worse, especially in the US. Basketball camps and such used to teach things, now they're just glorified advertising. And AAU ball is a massive joke. If Kawhi played in the 80's to 90's, he would have come into the league with all the skills he has now. Lucky he was drafted by the Spurs, or he probably would've wound up a Shane Battier level player.
Almost any young AAU player that plans on taking bball seriously will get some sort of private coaching like Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, etc. This kid already is at 12, he'll probably be a future star, you think players like Bird or Johnson had this type of compe ion when they were kids? This is pretty common stuff.
3rd stringers now>>>then lmao, the whole NBA has gotten better, I bet you don't even remember most 80s-90's back ups or 3rd stringers for that matter. Marjanovic's game probably would've done very well in the 90's, he's a cut 290lbs not a fat 290 like Sabonis. His size and length would've given plenty in the post trouble, wouldn't be a liability on the perimeter, you could've had him camping in the paint the whole game.
Watch Boban and Sabonis in the NBA, and tell me who looked better
Sabonis was having to deal with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Robinson/Duncan, Mourning, Smits, etc. Boban gets to see 3rd string centers.
Marjanovic could post up, knock down jumpers, make amazing passes in the Euroleague, but he can't in the NBA lol. Why is that? Why doesn't his skill translate? I mean one minute he's skilled, then next he's not? Sabonis wasn't better than him in the Euroleague even when he returned as an NBA player. I don't get it, did international compe ion used to be better too? What about college compe ion, it was better as well?
He's 7-3 and getting the shots he wants, but he's not making them like he was in the Euroleague even when poorly contested, what happened to his passing ability too?
For all of the great fundamental offense European players have, their defensive fundamentals are stuck in the 70's. Real talk. They play defense with their hands. It's why players with bad offensive fundamentals (rare for a Euro player typically) can dominate, like Splitter with that laughable post game of his.
White American players aren't that fundamental outside of shooting mechanics. If the AAU/NCAA knew what they were doing, we'd see more white American players like Dirk, prime Peja Pau, and Manu.
Oh, and the proliferation of European players (who are the same ethnic stock as white Americans), pretty much proves that great fundamentals can overcome inferior athleticism. The player most similar to Bird in playing style (sans playmaking and post game), size, and athleticism is Peja, and he wasn't a "Adam Morrison."
If a guy like Muscala played in the 80's he would've most likely been at the very least an all star, solid fundamentals all around, could play both sides of the bal,Guys like these are a dime a dozen in college, even the NBA, but most of their skills ultimately fail due to superior athleticism around them.
European players join professional ball clubs at young ages, players like Peja, Parker, Diaw, Dirk, etc. turned pro at young ages (Peja 16, Parker 15, Dirk 16), I'm like 90% sure most European schools don't have basketball, you actually have to go out and find a pro club that will sign you. These European players are developing their games against grown ass professionals, they're thrown straight into the fire.
International ball now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>80s-90's international ball. The talent pool is in the millions, it's not the tens of thousands Bird competed with growing up in the 60s-70s.
It wouldn't reach worldwide popularity until the mid 80's when Stern started marketing the game around his stars thanks to the 1984 cable act. That's when cable became widespread in the US and put the NBA not just in front of millions of Americans, but on a world stage where kids like Ginobili could stay up late, watch and emulate their favorite players.
You can only really dominate through sheer athleticism at the high-school/AAU levels and to an extent, the college level. I can name more super athletes that washed out of the NBA than this forum has bandwidth. Knowledge and skills will always trump "pure" athleticism in pretty much every sport. Take Draymond Green. 4 year player, not highly scouted because of his underwhelming athleticism. Even his lateral quickness was rated poor. 33" vert and undersized (6'6" without shoes). But one aspect of his game his coaches at MSU talked up was his "ap ude." Inexplicably, Draymond has emerged as one of the best players in the league. You'll probably say something about his weight, but that's my point, a player can always put on weight. Bird, or any other player, would do so. Kawhi is a similar player with comparatively underwhelming athleticism that is scoring through his superior skills (footwork, which learned. Shooting mechanics, which he learned. Floor positioning [always being in the right spot for the best shot. Think Ray Allen]). I know you love Kawhi, but he's not all that athletic by even 80's standards. His length is elite, though, and helps with his athletic shortcomings.
The league isn't that much heaver. About 7 pounds heavier right now than in the mid-80's.It's different chasing a guy around the perimeter at those weights, cutting at those weights, fighting through screens set by 265 PFs and not 215lb PF's, posting up against players that big etc.
I don't care, because weight is something that can be put on. There's nothing magical about. And you overrate the talent pool depth. Yes, the NBA exploded worldwide post Dream Team. And guess what? Those pre-Dream Team NBA players weren't rendered suddenly ineffective as the game went more global. Karl Malone is a good example of player who played over 3 different eras: 80's high tempo, 90's isoball, "Global Era." He was still a 20ppg scorer at 39 in '03. Is there where you say Dirk and Gasol's bodies "didn't fill out yet?"Most players did not start lifting until the 90's though, Pippen was still a 212lb stick when he played Bird. In fact Horace Grant was on Bird quite a bit, and although he was a big man, he too was barely in the 215lb range and not the 240lb player that played in the late 90's...But you don't care about their weight, don't care about talent pool, doesn't matter lmao.
Reggie Miller was also another player who played across all those eras. Adjusted fine.
Jordan didn't get worseJordan and Pippen didn't get worse, the compe ion got better, these guys were in the 220's late in their careers. The talent pool exploded in the mid to late 80's, got much bigger in the 90's, got even bigger in the 00's. The rate at which the talent pool is expanded is not the same during Bird's time, and it's due in a large part to cable tv.
Pippen about stayed the same from 92-96.
Players typically start declining after 30. Go read Nate Silver's player projections. Funny thing is, Karl Malone got better
You just proved my point that learned skills and knowledge can compensate for lack of athleticism. Exactly. You're getting it again.Humans sort of have something called muscle memory, ever heard of it? In any profession after a certain amount of time movements that you've been repeating start to become effortless and automatic. Vets adapt because they've been playing for a looooong time, it takes time for the newer generation to learn and surpass. Their bodies may not be the same as they were in their primes, but some of their decisions and skills drastically improve.
And I totally acknowledge the new generation surpasses (generally) the previous generations, but not by some re ed, totally irrational margin. My estimate stands at 10% improvement per generation (provided the sport stays relevant). You think the next generation turns into mutants. Even your Reverse Nostalgia fan partner-in-crime Apa thinks players will be dunking from the 3 point line in 20 years. That's an impossibility.
Draymond Green is also a tweener. They also measured players barefoot back then as opposed to shoes today. Bird would measure out at 6'10". He can always put on weight, but he's probably a PF in the vein of Kevin Love today. Here's Bird standing about 2" over the "6'9" Paul George.Bird would've been a tweener in today's game, do you really think he would be able to guard the likes of Leonard, PG, Lebron, Durant etc? You most likely would've had to put him at PF, but at at his weight he would've gotten bullied.
You underestimate how big Bird really was. A 6'10"/6'11" player (that's what he'd measure today) with that shooting ability, post game, passing ability, b-ball IQ, would excel in today's game. How can you argue against it? Weight? He'd put it on. Athleticism? Bird wasn't unathletic.
Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson. I also don't see Willie Cauley-Bust hanging with too many guards. And no, he isn't as big as Ewing. See above about how they measured players. Paul George 6'9"Cauely Stein is some-what mobile for his size? He can go out on the perimeter and stay with guards at 245lbs, show me 80's bigs his size and that mobile, he weighs the same as Patrick Ewing lmao. Show me 240lb players like Leonard going deep out on the perimeter and challenging guards, I want to see their explosiveness.
A lot of 80's bigs were legit 7 footers. Stein is probably a PF in the 80's and 90's. I agree wings have gotten more athletic. But 80's players like Pippen and Rodman could go out deep and guard PGs, even after they put on "weight."
Here's "7 footer" our very own Tim Duncan standing next to 6'9" Bill Russell:
Compare the mid 90's NFL to the '65-'75 NFL period which you saw the graph flat line pre-S&C coaches, that's more reflective of the 70's-80's NBA. There is a drastic difference during that time. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired them at the same time, but they didn't.
You didn't carefully look at the graph, and only considered linemen.
Let's see how weights progressed in the other positions:
Wide Receivers:
Oh, weights actually declined during your strength and conditioning era, flatlining for about 15 years.
Today, wide receiver weight is back to where it was in the late 60's.
Running backs (look closely at the chart). It follows nearly the exact same path. A bump early, a regression, a flat line, and then a progression. Also, it's not like these weight increases are "revolutionary." Anywhere from 5-10 pounds either way.
TEs and Linebackers also follow the same exact pattern.
When you consider the weight progression since the 1950's, it's not this dramatic evolution outside of the linemen. And the reason for lineman gain is strategic. In the past, it was a more athletic position.
And as I said, we've stagnated since the 90's. No mutants.
I can tell from combine results. WRs and RBs and LBs, etc aren't anymore explosive and athletic now than they were then. I'm sure there has been very marginal gains (1-2%), but nothing mutant level. Nothing that would make 80's/90's players obsolete. See: Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Chris Carter, Emmitt Smith, etc.But even then, guys are losing/gaining weight based on way the game is currently being played at their position, RB's are probably becoming more compact because it allows them to hit the holes easier, those graphs do not represent how explosive guys are in relation to their weights. A player may be dropping fat but adding muscle, you can't tell from just a graph.
Yeah, that might have something to do with Magic and Duncan being 36 (with HIV) and 40. But the very fact they can still be high level players (a good bench player is a high level player) proves my case. You actually think if you gave Magic his prime back in '96, he wouldn't be an MVP candidate? Or give Duncan his '03 form back, he wouldn't be able to on Willie Cauley-Bust and DeMonkey?Vets don't just stop getting better as I covered earlier, you get worse in some areas, get better in others. You also generally take on a different role as your career goes on which usually makes the game much easier on you. Magic was playing PF off the bench in his return during a lockout shortened year, he wasn't starting at PG like he was in his prime. Duncan isn't carrying those crappy 00's teams anymore or facing teams like the '07 Cavs, his current role isn't even half of what it used to be.
Too bad that private coaching doesn't translate into a good fundamentals a majority of the time. Why do you think Europeans have considerably closed the gap on African American ball players over the past 20 years? Like I said, players used to come into the league with polished skillsets from NCAA basketball. Now the NCAA is largely a mercenary league with recruiting strategy that has shifted from building a program (you'd recruit freshman on their potential to be stars in their later years) to recruiting the best athletes who then enter the NBA as "projects." Why do you think Porzingis is the best rookie? That is how an NCAA player used to look like with regard to skillset.Almost any young AAU player that plans on taking bball seriously will get some sort of private coaching like Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, etc. This kid already is at 12, he'll probably be a future star, you think players like Bird or Johnson had this type of compe ion when they were kids? This is pretty common stuff.
Bird and Magic didn't face compe ion like that probably. But there were athletes then just as there are now. Like I said, all these fancy training methods only improve athleticism by marginal amounts. And as I've shown, skills/knowledge can compensate. Bird was practically crippled in '92. Still put up solid numbers during a very athletic period.
Don't know. Too small a sample size to evaluate Boban just yet. I don't think he achieves more than Sabonis in the 90's, though. The center position was much better.3rd stringers now>>>then lmao, the whole NBA has gotten better, I bet you don't even remember most 80s-90's back ups or 3rd stringers for that matter. Marjanovic's game probably would've done very well in the 90's, he's a cut 290lbs not a fat 290 like Sabonis. His size and length would've given plenty in the post trouble, wouldn't be a liability on the perimeter, you could've had him camping in the paint the whole game.
Marjanovic could post up, knock down jumpers, make amazing passes in the Euroleague, but he can't in the NBA lol. Why is that? Why doesn't his skill translate? I mean one minute he's skilled, then next he's not? Sabonis wasn't better than him in the Euroleague even when he returned as an NBA player. I don't get it, did international compe ion used to be better too? What about college compe ion, it was better as well?
He's 7-3 and getting the shots he wants, but he's not making them like he was in the Euroleague even when poorly contested, what happened to his passing ability too?
And calling Sabonis fat disqualifies your opinion on him. It's obvious you didn't see him play nor even closely looked at a picture of him.
Younger:
Boban has better muscle definition, but he's not as thick or as stout as Sabonis.
I see a pretty bad post game and footwork there. He's not a star in the 80's. Maybe a rotation player, at best.If a guy like Muscala played in the 80's he would've most likely been at the very least an all star, solid fundamentals all around, could play both sides of the bal,Guys like these are a dime a dozen in college, even the NBA, but most of their skills ultimately fail due to superior athleticism around them.
Yes. Getting it some more. And that superior development at an early age (from a skillset standpoint) allows them to compete with more athletic players.European players join professional ball clubs at young ages, players like Peja, Parker, Diaw, Dirk, etc. turned pro at young ages (Peja 16, Parker 15, Dirk 16), I'm like 90% sure most European schools don't have basketball, you actually have to go out and find a pro club that will sign you. These European players are developing their games against grown ass professionals, they're thrown straight into the fire.
But 80's NBA>>>>Modern International ball.International ball now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>80s-90's international ball. The talent pool is in the millions, it's not the tens of thousands Bird competed with growing up in the 60s-70s.
If Drazen didn't die (who was a contemporary of Vlade, who played in the modern era, and not much older than Peja), he probably would've played until the early-00's (the modern era as far as I'm concerned), and been a many time all-star. Bird roasted him when they matched up in 1988 at the McDonald's International tournament (to be fair, they played different positions and didn't directly guard each other. Bird did kill Dino Radja in the earlier game against Yugoslavia. Dino would be a 20ppg scorer in the NBA in 1996). What? Drazen's (or Dino's) body didn't fill out yet, right
I'll end with this. Let's say a modern team could draft Larry Bird out of Indiana State. He probably doesn't make the immediate impact he did right out of college as he did in 1980, but give him 2 years to develop, put on weight, improve his explosiveness with modern training, and he's a top SF/PF in today's game. Since his skill set was so polished already, he could move right into training up his body and athleticism.
There's nothing magical about today's era that would render Bird an Adam Morrison level player.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see steady progress and reasonable evolution, you see a comic book.
Last edited by midnightpulp; 12-04-2015 at 06:49 PM.
And BTW, the kid in the video is working "flashy" not smart. He's already developing bad over-dribbling habits, makes too many excessive moves while dribbling, and his jumpshot mechanics are atrocious.
This isn't even good hyperbole by your weak standards... You must just be getting your pedo on.
Ive seen 3rd grader girls with better handles than an 80s player
all part of the new wave point guards that have bad outside shots, like rondo, wall, rose
I looked the kid up and even scouts weren't impressed.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/...rts-prodigies/Given my background I was curious. I wanted to see Julian play.
Over the last month, I’ve watched him play two regulation games, an exhibition game, a pickup game, many games of one on one, and a workout run by his dad. If I still worked for Prep Stars, I wouldn’t offer an evaluation. Julian’s too young. Coaches from colleges wouldn’t want it or need it. But if I had to evaluate him, right now, here’s what I’d say: He’s above average for his age. In drills, he shoots well, including from three-point range, although he releases from his chest because he’s not strong enough to shoot with proper form from that distance. In games, his accuracy dips considerably. He’s quick, but not quick enough to get around a capable, motivated high school varsity defender. His dribbling tends to be more eye-catching than effective.
My opinion is, of course, only that.
So I called coaches of teams that played Downey Christian this year.
Some of the coaches — typically those from other small schools whose teams lost to Downey — were impressed. …
Other coaches — typically those from bigger private or public schools whose teams beat Downey — were more discerning.
The Forbes article is good read. Illustrates how people are hyping "sports prodigies" through selective youtube/viral marketing. That's another area that KL2 and Reverse Nostalgia fans make in overhyping modern players/techniques. You can make anything/anyone look good on selectively edited video. If they had youtube in the 60's, Press Maravich would've made Pistol Pete look like God.
Last edited by midnightpulp; 12-05-2015 at 08:42 PM.
Christ this ty ing thread is still going on.
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