Game Thread: San Antonio Spurs at New York Knicks November 8th, 2023 | 6:30 PM CT

[Jordan Jackson]

Players are open for a reason…they can’t shoot.

Knicks doubled or tripled teamed Wemby - dared the others to make shots, which they won’t. If you’re an opposing team you are happy to let the Tre Jones and Sochans of the world bomb away from 3.

Teams are not going to let Wembanyama embarrass them.

Oh and the Spurs defense is a dogs breakfast too. Crazy stuff out there. 74 more to go…

[spurs10]

I am 100% being reactionary after two bad losses, but...

Keldon needs to get his together because he does not deserve to be a starter on this team, or any team TBH

Dude plays terrible defense, doesn't really run offense other than barreling towards the rim, and his trebuchet-style three isn't falling.

Being a "good teammate" only gets you so far in the NBA.

Yeah, i'm just wondering if he isn't hugely affected by falling a place or two in the pecking order.

[Chinook]

I don't know if Pop has that fire anymore, and even in the past when he did it felt like it took years for him to get Parker to give the ball to Kawhi. I think it finally culminated when Pop was jumping up and down, screaming and pointing while Parker had it in the halfcourt and it finally happened.

I don't see Pop doing that anymore. It's probably going to take a coach in the floor to wrangle things, as in a point guard.

If Pop is getting styled on by Keldon Johnson and Malaki Branham, he needs to retire. If he doesn't have the fire to force guys to play differently, he needs to move them. All he has to do is pull them for guys like Mamu and Graham. They'll do whatever Pop asks.

[Mugen]

I don't know if Pop has that fire anymore, and even in the past when he did it felt like it took years for him to get Parker to give the ball to Kawhi. I think it finally culminated when Pop was jumping up and down, screaming and pointing while Parker had it in the halfcourt and it finally happened.

I don't see Pop doing that anymore. It's probably going to take a coach in the floor to wrangle things, as in a point guard.

I mean that's the elephant in the room and it has been for years. He hasn't really had it since the Kawhi debacle and his wife passing. The last time I thought Pop gave a was after the Zaza incident.

We joke around because it's funny but there's a lot of truth that maybe the oldest NBA coach just isn't a good fit for the youngest team in the league. It's really not that hard to comprehend that somebody as old as Pop just doesn't truly have it anymore, it's super normal in all walks of life including basketball

[Chinook]

So Wemby has the highest USG% of any Spur since Kawhi in his last year on the club. Like seriously, only Prime Kawhi (meaning the year before that) had a noticeably higher measurement than Victor does right now. Folks arguing that Victor's not getting touches are frankly out of touch. The dude used 19 possessions to get 14 points and three TOs tonight. Dude gets the ball a lot. He just gets bad looks for a number of reasons.

[Arcadian]

That's hilarious that some people are turning on Wemby after a few non-amazing performances. all of that. He's not perfect, but he's the best player on this team by far and still almost guaranteed to be MVP contender in a few years. Anyone suddenly suggesting he's a "bust" or he's the problem with the team is simply overreacting.

Can't say I didn't see that coming, though.

[FkLA]

To be clear, I'm not calling your view toxic to have as a fan. It's natural for you want the Spurs to show off their fancy new player. But in the locker-room, trying to force guys to forget everything they've been taught up to this point and to instead defer to a guy who can't even set a screen properly is going to cause problems.



The ceiling of these guys is to be decent players who might have long and lucrative NBA careers. There's no guarantee they'll be Wemby's teammate for a long time. Pop should be implementing a system to get them all points, but if it's going to be without structures, guys are going to try to play the way they know how rather than worshiping a guy who doesn't seem to have much interest in helping others out. Collins and Bassey are far, far better screeners, which means it's so much easier to work with those guys to create situations to get both them and the ball-handlers good looks.



Yes, there does have to be balance. No one in their right mind should disagree there.



No. He's forcing because he struggles to score sometimes and gets frustrated. He got tons of touches to start the game and still forced . The Suns game wasn't them deciding to give him the ball. It was Phoenix defending him with small players and having no IQ in terms of trying to stop him for getting into his spots. He couldn't do anything against the Knicks because he's not going to beat good defensive bigs off the dribble right now, and very few are going to let him have a clean catch in the first place. The moment Wemby failed to hit any of his early shots, any chance of him forcing the Knicks to change their plan went out the window. Victor pretty much gave up on the game at that point.



Honestly, the Spurs actually pass much more when Wemby's on the court than when he's off it. I don't think there's a ton of evidence that they are freezing him out when they assist at a higher rate with him on the floor. In fact, Wemby's on/off for the team's assist percentage is the highest on the team. It's an indictment of him that he's not benefitting from guys passing. The narrative that they're selfishly looking for theirs and ignoring him doesn't match the stats. Here are two potential explanations: 1) They're colluding to freeze Wemby out and are basically playing money in the middle with him; 2) They're running offense and trying to find guys, but Wemby isn't presenting good scoring opportunities on a consistent basis. Some want to assume it's that first one, but how many people even went back and looked at the 38-point game to see what the difference was?

The ball is moving, it just doesn't seem to be making its way to him as much as it is to some of the other key guys. I don't think it's just us fans being eager to use our new shiny player either. Too many fans are seeing the same thing. Also, Sean mentions it all the time and if you want to attribute that to him being a homer, Hubie mentioned it a few times today too. I'm not even talking about force feeding him either...I'm talking about he ran the floor and has a mismatch lets throw it inside to him. Or there was a switch and he has a smaller guy on him. Like obvious mismatch opportunities that are just being ignored. To me that's what stood out most about the Suns game. Or the couple 4th Qtrs when he's "taken over". He's getting those looks.

I do agree with some of the criticism. His screens need work. He was really horrible the first couple of games, slipping way too early looking to get open. I think he's gotten a little better although still far from ideal. I also do think he excessively calls for the ball a lot of times even when he's not really open. I could see how those things could be off putting as his teammate but definitely not a reason to freeze him out if that is indeed what's going on. I would hope that his teammates would talk to the kid, help him grow. He's 19.

[objective]

If Pop is getting styled on by Keldon Johnson and Malaki Branham, he needs to retire. If he doesn't have the fire to force guys to play differently, he needs to move them. All he has to do is pull them for guys like Mamu and Graham. They'll do whatever Pop asks.

I don't even know if Pop thinks there's an issue to deal with.

Everyone says, "oh, pop will make sure they throw lobs to Wemby"

But now I actually remembered when the Spurs acquired Richard Jefferson and everyone thought, "lobs here we come!"

Except it didn't happen it feels like for months.

Then when there finally were lob plays in the halfcourt, the reporting wasn't that Pop finally got through to them.

It turned out that Jefferson and Parker got together on their own to work it in. If the players hadn't made it an issue then pop probably wasn't going to make it one

And that was over 10 years ago.

That's why I'm now of the opinion that they need to trade for a veteran point guard. Someone has to be a coach on the floor.

[spurraider21]

So Wemby has the highest USG% of any Spur since Kawhi in his last year on the club. Like seriously, only Prime Kawhi (meaning the year before that) had a noticeably higher measurement than Victor does right now. Folks arguing that Victor's not getting touches are frankly out of touch. The dude used 19 possessions to get 14 points and three TOs tonight. Dude gets the ball a lot. He just gets bad looks for a number of reasons.

His usage is high because he plays like a black hole. Last few games he’s played like a 7’4 Antoine Walker.

in part it’s because the guys seem to miss him when he had advantageous positions. And then in part he becomes frustrated and lets that get the better of him, because then he takes it upon himself to jack up a bad look when he does have the ball out of fear he’s not going to be fed. So he definitely had some of the “muh touches” syndrome and it’s also affecting his defensive effort

[z0sa]

I do think Wemby checked out early in this game, which suggests there are issues between him and coaches. That's something that has to be fixed, but it's not a panic situation. The team can't really develop until they get this type of stuff worked out. I'm currently assuming they'll figure out different ways to get Wemby the ball in advantage situations, even against teams that can defend better than the Suns. However, that's going to require a certain amount of buy-in from Wemby that he might not believe he has to give until he can see more evidence. I'm very curious about when the Spurs are going to start altering the rotation. When they do that and what choices they make will give us information on what Pop thinks the problems are. Wemby's going to respond to that, and that will let us know where his mind is at. Then of course we'll get into trading season, and we'll see what posture the Spurs have.

I was on the fence about trading, because I honestly have watched an average of maybe 15-20 games a season since 2017 playoffs (just life/work stuff). So that's it's own can of worms - who do we deal/what picks and for which position(s)? I think the FO is actually frozen right now because WEMBY is the true ?. Again, this isn't hate or saying he's a bust or anything - we just don't know where exactly he will feel most comfortable until more time has passed.

More immediately, Healthy Devin Vassell would certainly help, no question there. But it's also unreasonable to think one will have always have the same healthy lineup/rotation. Being real, would I be happier with Wemby playing hero ball, to the detriment of the rest of the team's production/growth? How many of these guys will be here 3 years from now, when Pop's sun is setting but we're "supposed" to be contending? It's a bit of an odd place for the Spurs fan. We're "slaves" to the SystemTM, win or lose. What if the system drives your generational talent out? At what point does Pop draw the line and say, I've got Wemby's back over all y'alls cause I want another ring/COTY etc?

[Chinook]

That's hilarious that some people are turning on Wemby after a few non-amazing performances. all of that. He's not perfect, but he's the best player on this team by far and still almost guaranteed to be MVP contender in a few years. Anyone suddenly suggesting he's a "bust" or he's the problem with the team is simply overreacting.

Can't say I didn't see that coming, though.

Wemby is a rookie, he's going to do things wrong. He's going to get better. Yes, suggesting he's a bust is silly and hopefully just reactionary. Thinking he has things he needs to improve on is just being realistic. That's been true in his good and bad games. He's going to get better, and he's not as good as he's going to be now. Talking about the things he's not doing well isn't "turning on him". It's just a thought-terminating comment. This season is going to take a legit portion of the rest of our lives. We can talk about it, both the good and the bad without violating some sacred path. The Spurs are losing games right now, and a lot of people have played a hand in it. No player in the rotation is free of criticism. It's going to be a long season if you are offended by people having a frank discussion about what's ailing the team.

[widowmaker]

Dude if someone wants to win the 3 point contest this year they should have a spur guarding them.

[objective]

His usage is high because he plays like a black hole. Last few games he’s played like a 7’4 Antoine Walker.

in part it’s because the guys seem to miss him when he had advantageous positions. And then in part he becomes frustrated and lets that get the better of him, because then he takes it upon himself to jack up a bad look when he does have the ball out of fear he’s not going to be fed. So he definitely had some of the “muh touches” syndrome and it’s also affecting his defensive effort

I agree that contributes a lot to his bad shots.

It's like rescuing a starving person, if you let them they'll overeat and put themselves at further risk.

And it might seem ridiculous for a high usage player to feel starved, but after early experiences of putting himself in position and not getting the ball so often, which is not easy, then yes he'll feel starved

The starvation will make things worse. Wait until he stops trying to get good position because he feels he won't get the ball anyway. When that apathy takes root and he just wants to hang around the three point line and chuck bricks because it's easier and everyone else does, that's going to be a bigger problem then him going on tilt with bad shots and raising his hand for the ball.

[Marcus Bryant]

Knicks challenged Spurs’ supporting cast to beat them tonight and it couldn’t.

Anyways, if you think Wemby is a “bust” as I’ve seen posted here, might as well tune out for the next decade, you’re going to hate how that turns out.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

How bad are we going to get murked by the wolves?

[SPURt]

I am 100% being reactionary after two bad losses, but...

Keldon needs to get his together because he does not deserve to be a starter on this team, or any team TBH

Dude plays terrible defense, doesn't really run offense other than barreling towards the rim, and his trebuchet-style three isn't falling.

Being a "good teammate" only gets you so far in the NBA.

To be fair, none of these Spurs have been consistently good. I don’t think any of them know how to play with Wembanyama. The catch is Wemby is 19 and hasn’t figured out how he needs to play to live up to his own hype. When they figure it out, it’s gonna be scary.

[FkLA]

His usage is high because he plays like a black hole. Last few games he’s played like a 7’4 Antoine Walker.

in part it’s because the guys seem to miss him when he had advantageous positions. And then in part he becomes frustrated and lets that get the better of him, because then he takes it upon himself to jack up a bad look when he does have the ball out of fear he’s not going to be fed. So he definitely had some of the “muh touches” syndrome and it’s also affecting his defensive effort

Exactly. Just because he jacks up shots all the time doesn't mean he's involved or that his looks are coming within the flow the offense. It's all one on one. Or him literally just shooting over defenders on his threes (not even off penetration from others). Or grabbing the defensive rebound, dribbling the ball down the court and shooting it. Basically mostly everything is coming outside the "system".

I think he just wants to be great, live up to hype, etc and definitely does seem to get frustrated when things aren't going well. Or when his involvement in the offense is that of the last option on the floor. I don't get why he would be the one to be labeled selfish for that though. Imo it's more selfish to not acknowledge that he's the most talented, highest ceiling player on the team. Role players need to play their roles.

[Dex]

Dude if someone wants to win the 3 point contest this year they should have a spur guarding them.

You jest...but Spurs are literally last in the NBA when it comes to OPP 3PT%.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...hree-point-pct

For the record, we were also worst in the NBA last season, too.

[Chinook]

His usage is high because he plays like a black hole. Last few games he’s played like a 7’4 Antoine Walker.

in part it’s because the guys seem to miss him when he had advantageous positions. And then in part he becomes frustrated and lets that get the better of him, because then he takes it upon himself to jack up a bad look when he does have the ball out of fear he’s not going to be fed. So he definitely had some of the “muh touches” syndrome and it’s also affecting his defensive effort

I think Wemby looks for "advantageous position" too much. As I said, guys are out there running actions to get open threes, and Wemby is completely separated from the other four guys calling for the ball. Collins and Bassey are out there screening to get their guys clean drives, and Wemby is slipping try to get himself open. Like, sure, he might have an advantage in that moment (even though the opposing defenders are totally looking for that now and are much better at disrupting it than the Suns were) but the other guys were depending on him to do his job, and he's not on those plays. And if the justification for that is "Well I'm better than all of you, and you should make giving me the ball whenever I want a priority" it wouldn't sit well.

Even a lot of his "good positions" aren't that good. He very rarely sets up in the "dunker" spot, which is why you would think a guy looking for a duck-in, lob or put-back. Instead he sets up shop for a post-up, which is essentially calling your own number for an iso. That can certainly work sometimes, but a lot goes into getting a good post-up and Wemby doesn't tend to have all of that work done when he calls for the ball. People should look at how other teams enter to the post -- even for perimeter players -- versus what it looks like when Wemby wants the ball. Tonight there were multiple times when Wemby got pushed so far away from the basket that he was practically in the lap of the guy trying to pass him the ball. Some of the blame might be the angle other Spurs are taking to try the pass. But Wemby's unability to hold his position is definitely a part of the spacing issues. It doesn't help that other teams know Wemby's not inclined to pass and are totally going to double him when does catch the pass.

That's why everything has to be quick actions, and in order to have quick actions, everyone needs to be on the same page. That means the others have to have their heads on a swivel looking to make the pass, but it also means Victor needs to pick his moments better. He's only going to have a couple of seconds to get the ball, and he needs to only open those windows when there's a good chance he'll get a pass. The team should be prioritizing his off-ball game right now, but I think Victor really wants on-ball touches. I just don't think he's at the point where a lot of those are good for the team without him already being in rhythm.

[Mugen]

Wemby isn't a bust obviously and I still think he's going to be top 10 player sooner rather than later. But the narrative that he went to the perfect coaching staff for his development is definitely overhyped tbh.

[Mugen]

He's also still a horrible screener. I'm flabbergasted that he's still really bad at it considering it's probably one of the easiest things to coach a player on tbh.

[heyheymymy]

def concerning but im going to need a larger sample size than 8 games before I start panicking esp considering the immense integration and Vassell being out with injury.

youngest team in the league = immense integration. Integration takes time and tinkering:

Learning the Spurs playbook (new guys), Learning the league (1-2 year players Vic, Bran), Still adding to their game (KJ, Dev, Zollins, Jones), and the whole team still getting legs under them at start of the season. All this adds to lack of cohesion appearance on court. Though it does look like there may be some fundamental flaws on top of all that as well.

We always said during offseason this year would be used to find out what Wemby needs around him and looks like that's what's happening. Good thing we have cap flexibility and tons of draft assets for trades etc.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Wemby started this game with quick 3s.

He needs to be watching and modeling Tim and Jokic, not KD.

[Marcus Bryant]

This season Wemby acclimates to NBA basketball and you find out what you have among the menagerie of players you’ve ac ulated. It is what it is.

[FkLA]

I think Wemby looks for "advantageous position" too much. As I said, guys are out there running actions to get open threes, and Wemby is completely separated from the other four guys calling for the ball. Collins and Bassey are out there screening to get their guys clean drives, and Wemby is slipping try to get himself open. Like, sure, he might have an advantage in that moment (even though the opposing defenders are totally looking for that now and are much better at disrupting it than the Suns were) but the other guys were depending on him to do his job, and he's not on those plays. And if the justification for that is "Well I'm better than all of you, and you should make giving me the ball whenever I want a priority" it wouldn't sit well.

Even a lot of his "good positions" aren't that good. He very rarely sets up in the "dunker" spot, which is why you would think a guy looking for a duck-in, lob or put-back. Instead he sets up shop for a post-up, which is essentially calling your own number for an iso. That can certainly work sometimes, but a lot goes into getting a good post-up and Wemby doesn't tend to have all of that work done when he calls for the ball. People should look at how other teams enter to the post -- even for perimeter players -- versus what it looks like when Wemby wants the ball. Tonight there were multiple times when Wemby got pushed so far away from the basket that he was practically in the lap of the guy trying to pass him the ball. Some of the blame might be the angle other Spurs are taking to try the pass. But Wemby's unability to hold his position is definitely a part of the spacing issues. It doesn't help that other teams know Wemby's not inclined to pass and are totally going to double him when does catch the pass.

That's why everything has to be quick actions, and in order to have quick actions, everyone needs to be on the same page. That means the others have to have their heads on a swivel looking to make the pass, but it also means Victor needs to pick his moments better. He's only going to have a couple of seconds to get the ball, and he needs to only open those windows when there's a good chance he'll get a pass. The team should be prioritizing his off-ball game right now, but I think Victor really wants on-ball touches. I just don't think he's at the point where a lot of those are good for the team without him already being in rhythm.

Bro, you're trying to paint him out to be a guy that just picked up a basketball for the first time. I get that there's levels in basketball but come on. I'm sure the kid has posted up plenty in his short career and has some level of understanding of angles. We've all acknowledged that he spams the call for the ball button...including plenty of times when he's not even open. But there's also just times where it makes perfect sense to get him the ball and the pass just isn't made for whatever reason.

Unacceptable given the caliber of prospect he is compared to the rest of the guys.