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D. Wade 12-26 28 PTS
Spurs just couldn't hit a basket yesterday the shot 39%
Miami hit 52%
If they meet it the finals this will not happen again
That's not really a fair comparison LJ, Wade's been playing better than Kobe most of this year.
D. Wade 12-26 28 PTS
Spurs just couldn't hit a basket yesterday the shot 39%
Miami hit 52%
If they meet it the finals this will not happen again
There is a huge difference betw being a great basketball player and a great presence on the floor. Shaq is not a great basketball player...he can dominate because of his size, but he is a good basketball player, not a great one.
MJ will be known as the greatest bball player way after Shaq retires.
What were Wade's numbers and % in crunch time in the fourth? He played a whole game, assists, steals, rebounds, blocks and took over in the fourth in Manuesque fashion.
I'll buy this arguement with a minor change:
Then again, upon further review, my opinion is that the above would make Shaq the Most Valuable Player Ever...but I just can't bring myself to say, under any cir stances, that Shaq is a better basketball player than Jordan. , Shaq will never be a better basketball player than Larry Bird. I don't care how many les he wins. Most Valuable Ever, Most Dominant Ever, Best Quote Ever, he could go on to win the next 5 in a row and hold a claim to Most Successful Ever, but it's ridiculous to say that he could ever be the greatest basketball player ever, at least in terms of "most skilled" basketball player ever, which is implied when you boast "Greatest of All Time". Jordan, Magic, Bird, the Great Oscar Robertson...these are some the most skilled basketball players ever. The basketball equivalent of the "5-tool" player. Shaq, regardless of his myriad successes, is just not in the same class, and never will be. I'm a big Shaq fan now, but he doesn't have the outside shot, the handle, or the defensive intensity for me to consider him the Greatest Ever. The "5-tool" guys could beat you any number of ways...Shaq can beat you one of two ways: scoring in the post or passing out of it. If you can effectively double-team him or effectively deny the entry pass, while accurately defending the passing lanes, then he needs a play-maker to create on the perimeter. Jordan, Magic, Bird, O...these guys were the playmakers. They had the ball in their hand at the end of big games, they took the big shots, they single-handedly willed their teams to victory. Shaq makes his whole team better, but he relies on that team as much as they rely on him. He can't beat you alone.If the Miami Heat win the next three championships, Shaquille O'Neal will surpass Michael Jordan to become the greatest basketball player of all-time. He won three championships with the Lakers before Kobe's ego destroyed that franchise. He gets traded to a mediocre team for three of their best players yet still takes that team to a championship (or three). That is better credentials than anyone who has ever played. Shaq would become the best ever.
This debate is moot.
The Heat have no chance to win it all.
I think has a little more talent than people give them credit for...Wade, E. Jones, D. Jones are not role players, they are PLAYERS. Not on his fattest day will Shaq ever have an impact on the game of basketball like Jordan did. Other than Pippen, what did Jordan ever have on his team...Cartwright, Kerr, etc.? You can idolize and spit all over that fat, trash talking b@$#!&^ if you like, but we'll see where his team is at the end.
D. Jones wouldn't have a job in this league if he wasn't getting wide open shots because of Shaq's presence on the floor. You have to give Shaq credit for how good many of the Heat roleplayers have suddenly gotten. It's no coincidence that suddenly Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem are putting up numbers.Wade, E. Jones, D. Jones are not role players, they are PLAYERS.
Damon Jones is actually averaging less points per minute than he was last year, sure his overall points per game are up but he's playing seven more minutes.
Udonis Haslem is in the same boat, he is actually averaging less points per minute than he did last year but his overall minutes have gone up as have his points.
Eddie Jones has played worse since Shaq arrived.
When it's all said and done, nobody really cares how well you do in the regular season. Yeah Shaq didn't always try in regular season games, but when it mattered he led his teams well in the playoffs. Five trips to the finals and three rings ... nice so far.
Jordan was awesome and I'm a big fan of his, but he had the best perimeter defender of all-time next to him for all six rings and a bunch of very good role players. Shaq won with a boy wonder weirdo with a huge ego three times and made it to the finals once with a team full of players who were crap after he was no longer with them.
Right now, Shaq is a top ten ... maybe top five player ever. If he wins it all this season, I think he has to rise to number one. No player in NBA history could match that.
If you place Duncan on this team instead of Shaq, you get the same results, if not better. As good as Manu and TP are, they are not D. Wade. My point is that Shaq DOES have a good supporting cast, but there are a few quality bigs you could put on that team and get the same, if not better results (i.e Duncan, J. O'Neal, to name a couple). If you put Wade on Indiana, do the Pacers not have the best team in the East? Look at the Heat's record against the best in the West and you have something like 2-9. Duncan's team has THE BEST RECORD in basketball...is he the best of all time?
Thank god Detroit drafted Darko instead of Wade.
I don't think you can ask how many games the Heat would have won without Odom, Grant, and Butler, since absent the trade for Shaq, those guys would still be there, and with that trio + Wade and the remainder, the Heat would have been competing for a top 4-5 seed in the East. For crissakes, most made them prohibitive favorites to win the Southeast, even without Shaq, which would have made them a top 3 seed. This was not a bad Heat team as it stood, so the question is how much more of a difference does Shaq make, when compared to Odom, Grant, and Butler.
At this point, the evidence seems pretty compelling to say that he makes about a 10-15 win difference during the regular season.
But, I don't know that a Heat le this year would make Shaq the most valuable player in NBA history. Why should a player's value depend on winning in more than one place? That's obviously some evidence of his value -- impact on varying situations -- but there are plenty of players who would have had that kind of impact, given the chance to move from a good situation to another already-good situation. Could Jordan, if coupled with another All-Star by trade, have catapulted another franchise to a le in the mid-90's? Probably. Would that enhance his value? I don't think so.
Notice the pattern. Penny was awesome with Shaq. Kobe was awesome with Shaq. Now Wade is awesome with Shaq. He makes very good players into superstars.
TimVP, I think you underestimate the role Horry played in LA winning those les. He helped them a whole lot.
And don't forget Shaq had Ho Grant, when he was an All Star caliber PF, on his team when the Magic made it to the finals.
As I said, Shaq uses his advantage to make him dominant. MJ was as athletic as anyone who ever played ... which was his advantage.
Plus as has been mentioned, Shaq's foot work, passing and hands are as good as any bigman ever.
Wadse was damn good without Shaq. He's upped his game but not anywhere necessarily because of Shaq. LeBron has upped his game and you can't give Shaq credit for that. Wade is growing. When he has an outside shot he'll be acious.
no, he not even close. Yeah he's gone 5 times and only came away with 3. Jordan went 6 times and came away with 6. Shag has nothing 7 feet away from the basket. I don't call that the greatest player of all time. He's the most dominate because of his size and they let him get away with the offensive fouls he almost always commits. And without that weirdo he doesn't win JACK! Kobe is the reason they always got past the spurs not Shaq. Wade was the best player last yr and he's still there, and is EJ. Sure I'll give him credit for making them a good basketball team. But Wade carried the team in the begining.
Jordan was dominate on every phase of the game, he didn't have any weakness and he just won. Shaq is not.
Look at Kobe now. He's a ballhog who probably won't even lead his team to the playoffs. Look at Penny after he no longer played with Shaq.Kobe is the reason they always got past the spurs not Shaq.
Now look at Wade and see how he's become one of the best players in the league. It ain't luck this keeps happening.
Gotta disagree.Plus as has been mentioned, Shaq's foot work, passing and hands are as good as any bigman ever.
His footwork is not as good as Hakeem's (or Tim's, for that matter), his passing isn't as good as KG's (if you don't consider KG a bigman, then subs ute Vlade, who, in his prime, was a far better passer than Shaq, and one of the better passing bigmen in history), and his hands are not as good as Wilt's were. Kareem had great touch, too.
Sure he's ballhogs more than he should, but he still averaging 7 per night. Second only to LJ at SG. He's still the best SG in the game, Shaq did not make him that. He made all the clutch plays for LA, not Shaq. Do they win without Kobe???? No. He'll Shaq is a big liablity during close games, Phill kept him out sometimes, you call that the greatest. Who knows about Penny, injuries has made him lose a lot. Wade was awesome last yr without him. Why do you think they wouldn't trade him, when LA wanted him more that any other.
timvp,
Jordan, with All-Star caliber talent like Pip and Rodman, won 72, 69, and then 62 with Chicago for their last three les. Before the "retirement", with guys like Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant, he was winning 61, 57, and 67 for his first three.
MJ's 6-0 in the finals with 14 All-Star appearances, all-NBA 1st team 10 times, and 5 MVP's.
Shaq, with Penny back when Hardaway could play, carried a so-so Magic team to the finals at age 22. He didn't get back until teaming up with Kobe winning 67, 56, and 58 on their way to his three rings. Then they lost last year of course to the Pistons.
Shaq is 3-2 in the finals with 11 All-Star appearances, all-NBA 1st team 6 times, and one MVP.
But Shaq is also only 32. MJ at 32 still had two MVP's and three les ahead of him.
If Shaq can play at the level that he is right now for the next three to five years, I think you can say that he approaches equality with Jordan. If he plays as long as Kareem did (or Jordan, for that matter) and still is able to dominate every night, then, MAYBE, he might surpass him.
Right now, and even if Miami win one this year, I don't believe Shaq is MJ's equal. He needs more. Then again, Shaq might be like an 18 time All Star and 12 time first team NBA'er by the time he's done. It's still too early.
Regular season does mean something.
Shaq won 3 les, MJ won 6 les. Honestly I thought some of the Lakers runs were kind of shaky themselves but thats just my personal opinion. In 2000-01 the Spurs folded like a cheap suit vs LA, I never have seen any team give up the way they did -- they alone made the Lakers look awesome that year. Mediocre teams were giving the Lakers some close game in that playoffs. Injuries and giving up on the Spurs part made the Lakers look like world beaters.
BTW Penny was injured, plain and simple. Penny lead that Magic team to something like a 21-5 start, beating that 72 win Bulls team WITHOUT Shaq. Injuries screwed Penny Hardaway up, plain and simple.
I agree that Kobe is playing substandard ball this season, as a leader. But the season is not over yet. We will see how he fares.
Wade showed signs of very good basketball in the playoffs last season. He wasn't polished, but the talent was evident. He is a good player with or without Shaq as well.
I just do not think Shaq worked as hard on D as Hakeem, Drob, and even Ewing. He was slightly superior on offense in his best seasons, but defensively he was not always there.
Had he played more full seasons and been more dominant on D I might say he was as good or better than MJ, but he did not show that kind of effort or effectiveness on both ends of the court.
Keep in my mind in one playoff run Pippen was not nearly at full strength, and Jordan also willed his team to the le. He had some nice support pieces, but its not like Shaq has not had good support around him either.
Kobe, Horry, Glen Rice in 9900
Kobe, HoGrant, Fisher in 0001
Kobe, Horry, Fisher 0102
Thats not bad support. Kobe made the big shots, Horry did his thing, Fisher usually stepped up and played well in his role. HoGrant provided a solid defender and efficient offensive role player.
I just get the impression the Bulls were more dominant. Even when Pippen was hurt or and playing poorly Jordan still lead his teams to victories in the playoffs. Shaq did the same, but Kobe was reasonably healthy in most of his playoff games and did take over many games in the playoffs as well.
I don't know that Shaq will ever lay out for a couple of years and then come back to lead a team to the championship. He's never been able to simply put a team on his back and win like MJ did--in my opinion.
Having watched Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem in their prime, I'm don't even think he was the best all time center. Whatcha think about that?
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