2009 Hall of Fame Class

[barbacoataco]

I am not in favor of McGwire being in the HOF. He was not a HOF player before he became a roidhead. Bonds clearly was a great player before he got huge.

[FromWayDowntown]

I am not in favor of McGwire being in the HOF. He was not a HOF player before he became a roidhead. Bonds clearly was a great player before he got huge.

So, wait -- Concepcion and Larkin are clearly in, in your book, and Parker and Murphy need to get more love, but the guy who is 8th All-Time in the most cherished statistical category in the game, who was a 12-time All-Star, who finished in the Top 11 of MVP voting on 6 different occasions, and who had a top-40 OPS through 1996, has no business being in the Hall?

I'd certainly agree that Larkin has a good argument for entry into the Hall (though I think it absurd to call him the 3rd best SS of all-time -- I'm not even sure he's the 3rd best SS since 1975 (I'd say that Ripken, Yount, Smith, and Rodriguez were definitively better players at that position than Larkin)), and I'm obviously unimpressed by the argument for Concepcion. I'm on record here, as well, as saying that McGwire should be examined carefully. I'm kind of inclined to the view that timvp expresses -- McGwire shouldn't have ever been a 1st ballot guy (like Harmon Killebrew, he needed to wait a while) and the steriod su ions might ultimately keep him out.

But there's no way that I could make a straight-faced argument that Concepcion should be in and McGwire out.

[barbacoataco]

Way to call me out! It does seem ridiculous.

Obiviously if you take McGwire's accomplishments at face value he is a 2nd or 3rd ballot HOF'er. The question is what to do about the fact that he looks really guilty. If Pete Rose is out for betting on his team to win, after he had a great career, then should McGwire get in? Of course Rose was found guilty and McGwire is just under a cloud of su ion.

Look- I am a Reds fan and that is why I want to see Concepcion, Parker and Larkin in the HOF. Out of those guys Larkin is the only one I think is for sure. The other two are borderline.

I think baseball puts WAY too much emphasis on career totals over peak dominance when evaluating players. No other sports judge their greats that way. Players like Parker and Dale Murphy who were MVP players get passed up by players like Blyleven who just had a long career.

[barbacoataco]

Fromwaydowntown, you are a very knowledgeable fan. Just wondered why you think they are passing on Dale Murphy so far? Was his career not long enough? Have they decided his offense was the product of the stadium he hit in? I know that when he was playing he was thought to be a future HOF'er.

[barbacoataco]

The election of Joe Gordon by the pre-43 Veterans committee proves that no one is ever really out of the HOF. Also, regarding our Concepcion discussion there is one less multi-year allstar not in the HOF. It seems like the post-43 committee is agreeing with you guys and not voting in some of these borderline players.

[K-State Spur]

The election of Joe Gordon by the pre-43 Veterans committee proves that no one is ever really out of the HOF. Also, regarding our Concepcion discussion there is one less multi-year allstar not in the HOF. It seems like the post-43 committee is agreeing with you guys and not voting in some of these borderline players.

Gordon's actually a lot better player than a lot of people realize. There are some questions about his longevity, but you could make a pretty strong case for him being one of the best 7-10 second-basemen of all time.

I still think Santo is more deserving, but the veterans committee tends to like to wait until the guys are dead before fixing the BWA's mistakes.

[FromWayDowntown]

About an hour left. Seems more and more like a year for Rickey and Rice.

Heard an interesting discussion this morning about the merits of Tommy John as a Hall of Famer, including the notion that John should be considered for more than just his on-field stats and should have the voters consider his willingness to undergo a then-radical procedure that forever changed the medical management of pitchers. There's some sense to the argument, particularly insofar as John lost about half of his 1974 season and his entire 1975 season to the surgery. With that, he came up just 12 wins short of the no-brainer number of 300.

I'm not personally sold on John, and I think that rationale is a little unorthodox, but I can see the point, which I had honestly never considered before.

[FromWayDowntown]

Henderson and Rice are in.

2009 Results
404 required for election
Player Total Votes Percentage 
Rickey Henderson 511 94.8% 
Jim Rice 412 76.4% 
Andre Dawson 361 67.0% 
Bert Blyleven 338 62.7% 
Lee Smith 240 44.5% 
Jack Morris 237 44.0% 
Tommy John 171 31.7% 
Tim Raines 122 22.6% 
Mark McGwire 118 21.9% 
Alan Trammell 94 17.4% 
Dave Parker 81 15.0% 
Don Mattingly 64 11.9% 
Dale Murphy 62 11.5% 
Harold Baines 32 5.9% 
Mark Grace 22 4.1% 
David Cone 21 3.9% 
Matt Williams 7 1.3% 
Mo Vaughn 6 1.1% 
Jay Bell 2 0.4% 
Jesse Orosco 1 0.2% 
Ron Gant 0 0% 
Dan Plesac 0 0% 
Greg Vaughn 0 0%

[TheTruth]

Good for Jim Rice. It's been a long wait, but it's well deserved. How the did Mo Vaughn get any votes?

[jack sommerset]

Grand jury convenes in Clemens probe was annouced today. Good timing on the govenrments part. Did he do steroids, didnot do steriods.........who gives a . Let these old timers have there day. Also you would think the sports reporters could agree to put more than 1-2 people in the hall per year.

[samikeyp]

Good for Jim Rice. It's been a long wait, but it's well deserved. How the did Mo Vaughn get any votes?

+1

[whottt]

You have to eventually put McGwire in. I can see not making him a first or second ballot HOFer as punishment for the roids issue but he deserves to be in soon. The HOF voters shouldn't have the power to figure out who to penalize and who to not penalize ... especially when the proof is lacking.

Even as someone who has been anti-McGwire for more than a decade due to him being on steroids, back when whottt and T Park were saying he was just country strong, I don't see why he should be kept out of the HOF much longer.

Link to me saying that about McGwire...you must have me confused with a Cards or A's fan.

#1. I always thought Mark McGwire did steroids.
#2. Even if Mark McGwire hadn't done steroids, he wasn't really a no-brainer HOF'er to me...Jose Canseco has almost the exact same numbers except in HR...and Jose could do a lot more.


I was the Raffy fan...not the McGwire fan...basically McGwire is being discussed as a HOF'er for about 4 seasons and the rest of the time he sucked major balls.


Incindentally...how you like Miguel Tejada now...and Arod?

What if Palmeiro was telling the truth about Tejada? What if that is why he tested positive? He already had the HOF locked up...there was no reason for him to do steroids.

[whottt]

Rice should have been in the HOF about 10 years ago...at one point I believe he had the most HR and RBI of anyone not in the HOF. His numbers look like crap now but when he retired they were pretty impressive. And they were impressive for his era.

Ryne Sandberg was a no-brainer first ballot HOF'er...the fact that he didn't make it in on the first ballot was one of the great jokes in recent sports history and proved just how clueless the voters were.

At the time of Sandberg's retirement he was either first or second(usually only behind Joe Morgan or Rogers Hornsby) on just about every single season and career hitting and fielding mark there was for a second baseman except for the BA and OBP stuff...

I believe Willie Mays and Ty Cobb are the only other players in history to have lead MLB in triples and homers...pretty damn good for a second baseman who played in a pitchers era.

[whottt]

BTW...props to Rickey, he was never a guy on my roid list. It's good to see a real player going in...he might be one of the last to go in for a while.

[K-State Spur]

BTW...props to Rickey, he was never a guy on my roid list. It's good to see a real player going in...he might be one of the last to go in for a while.

Why is that? Because he was a speed guy? In the Olympics, the sprinters are worse than anybody (except maybe the weight lifters).

Not accusing him, I just don't see how we can trust anybody anymore.

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess one thing that seems to be in Rickey's favor is that his career numbers don't seem to show much in the way of inexplicable es in power, speed, or anything else.

But he was around those Roided-up A's teams . . . .

[baseline bum]

Have any of you guys ever been to Cooperstown?

I went 10 years ago when Nolan Ryan got inducted (with George Brett and Robin Yount). I met Pete Rose, my brother got autographs from Hank Aaron and Willie Mays, and it was an amazing atmosphere in the entire town. Definitely worth checking out when there's a big induction.

[barbacoataco]

I'm not sure how they can keep a whole generation of players out of the HOF because they were using roids. They didn't keep the 50's-60's players out because many used "greenies" or amphetamines. Also, since steroids have been around since the 70's Pittsburgh Steelers teams (at least) how do we know players like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson or any other slugger form the 80's wasn't using roids? The more we find out, the more it looks like it has been part of the "weight regime" for many pro athletes in all sports for the last 30 years. I don't see how Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of that generation can be treated like they did something unique in the history of sports.

[K-State Spur]

I'm not sure how they can keep a whole generation of players out of the HOF because they were using roids. They didn't keep the 50's-60's players out because many used "greenies" or amphetamines. Also, since steroids have been around since the 70's Pittsburgh Steelers teams (at least) how do we know players like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson or any other slugger form the 80's wasn't using roids? The more we find out, the more it looks like it has been part of the "weight regime" for many pro athletes in all sports for the last 30 years. I don't see how Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the rest of that generation can be treated like they did something unique in the history of sports.

An entire generation - no. But anybody within that generation where there is a semi-strong link to PEDs - then maybe.

For example, barring anything new, Manny/Griffey/Pujols/Jeter/Maddux/Schilling/Big Unit will make it in from this era. Now, if they were users and just didn't get caught, more power to them I guess. But A-Rod, Bonds, and Mac will probably have to wait for a more forgiving set of voters.

[Galileo]

will we have a one-player class in 2009 with rickey henderson getting what he always wanted -- the spotlight to himself? (because rickey's getting in no matter what this year) or will the voters send along a marginal candidate or two to make rickey less of a spectacle?

Here are the 2009 candidates:

• harold baines
• jay bell
• bert blyleven
• david cone
• andre dawson
• ron gant
• mark grace
• rickey henderson
• tommy john
• don mattingly
• mark mcgwire
• jack morris
• dale murphy
• jesse orosco
• dave parker
• dan plesac
• tim raines
• jim rice
• lee smith
• alan trammell
• greg vaughn
• mo vaughn
• matt williams

i think there are several on that list who have no business being in a conversation about the hall of fame and, i think, no chance of even getting the 5% to remain on the ballot into next year -- jay bell, ron gant, and dan plesac. On that basis, too, i wouldn't vote for either vaughn or for matt williams, but i don't have a vote and i could see where some might vote for those guys just to keep them around for another year or two.

Of those who were eligible last year, rice came the closest to enshrinement:

Gossage, rich -- 85.8%
rice, jim -- 72.2%
dawson, andre -- 65.9%
blyleven, bert -- 61.9%
smith, lee -- 43.3%
morris, jack -- 42.9%
john, tommy -- 29.1%
raines, tim -- 24.3%
mcgwire, mark -- 23.6%
trammell, alan -- 18.2%
concepcion, dave -- 16.2%
mattingly, don -- 15.8%
parker, dave -- 15.1%
murphy, dale -- 13.8%
baines, harold -- 5.2%

rice would seem the most likely candidate to join henderson, both because he was close to joining gossage in 2008 and because this appears to be his last year of eligibility. Dawson strikes me as being quite a bit like rice.

I still think that precedent makes blyleven a worthy candidate and his voting totals seem to get closer and closer to 75%, but i'm not sure he'll get enough love this time to get in, either.

Lee smith retired as the all-time saves leader and is still 3rd on that list, but saves strike me as a pretty absurd way to define greatness. Still, if gossage is in, smith has a decent argument. He's a 7-time all-star who lead his league in saves on 4 different occasions while finishing in the top 5 in cy young voting three times.

Mcgwire is, well, mcgwire.


So, who gets in with rickey?

Ron Santo belongs in the Hall of Fame!!!!!!!!

[whottt]

Why is that? Because he was a speed guy? In the Olympics, the sprinters are worse than anybody (except maybe the weight lifters).

Not accusing him, I just don't see how we can trust anybody anymore.

Actually it had nothing to do with speed, if anything that works against him...

It's based on a couple of things...

#1. Rickey's face is drawn and gaunt, and he's always looked that way. Roids do just the opposite. They bloat your face and make it puffy.

#2. The only time Rickey's gotten in trouble it was for playing dominoes in the clubhouse during a game. Never had any sort of anger issues.

#3. Rickey's not that fast. Lots of guys have played that are much faster than he ever was...he just had a different approach to stealing bases.

Rickey doesn't time the pitcher's move to home...he times his move to first base.

#4. Rickey truly loves the game. He was playing in the independent leagues after the majors.

#5. Rickey was already about 40 when the roid era began.



I can't prove anything...


But you know...Rickey may have hung out with the A's...but he wasn't named by Canseco...and Canseco's been pretty damn accurate.

[whottt]

Since you guys brought this up though....anabolic steroids have been know to enhance athletic peformance since 1955 and they were used by bodby builders and eastern bloc athletes back in the sixties...

How do we know those guys in the sixties, seventies and eighties didn't use them? I mean we assume they didn't...but steroids existed a long time before 1994.

And those guys back then weren't above cheating...they cheated as much if not more than the modern guys did...

Modern guys haven't been busted for throwing world series and rigging batting les.

There's absolutely nothing to prove players didn't use them prior to the 90's...