Scottie had the same team, a great coach, punctuated by a 2nd round exit. Scottie also had a bit of a breakdown...
kobe has'nt won without an all star big man
Scottie had the same team, a great coach, punctuated by a 2nd round exit. Scottie also had a bit of a breakdown...
Every team will be like that when they lose their best player. But Pippen still managed to lose only 2 more games than with Michael.
You can't expect the Bulls to win championships missing their best player.
It's like taking Kobe off the Lakers and expecting Pau Gasol to bring home the Larry O' Brien by himself.
I actually think they overachieved because nobody expected the Bulls to be that good, ala that Houston Rockets team that won 2X games, most after Yao went down, and their best playoff performance without T-Mac...
They did what they were supposed to in my view.
EDIT: To extrapolate, it is the sign that Jordan's team was a solid one, much better than they are given credit for, but they didn't have the bigmen to compete. Championship teams can still manage 2nd round exits without their star.
the kobe hate here is getting ridiculous
yeah jordan made pippen look better, but does kobe not make his teammates better as well? pau is playing the best and most efficient basketball of his career. he makes crybaby andrew "wilt" bynum look like a beast, and even has been able to keep derek fishers rotting corpse in the NBA
kobes a beast, and while unlikely, if he was able to win a few more rings in this era, can most definitely be considered > jordan
Why is it hate to call 1 player, who never played 'in their prime' against each-other and comparing them, better than the other?
It is all fun. Can't say I was a fan of either. Still think Reggie got screwed in 1998, as I did the Kings in 2002, but hey, its part of being on a message board.
Both players are undoubtedly championship players. It is too hard to compare eras.
Oh BS. Pippen is to Jordan what Pau is to Kobe. Take Pippen away and Jordan wins nothing. Did you pay attention to what Jordan did before Pippen arrived?
Pippen is not a PF/C. Period. Jordan's greatness comes from not only his les but the fact he did it without a HOF big until Rodman came.
That's like saying Jordan hasn't won without a top 50 player of all time. Magic hasn't won without an all-star big man. Bird hasn't won anything without TWO all-star big men. Do you forget McHale and Parrish are Hall of Fame big men?
Exactly: Jordan was considered to have been the only guy to win without a big, which is why he is put on a pedestal. A SF is not a PF/C.
It's not about what position you play, it's how good you are. Pippen at his best was better than many Hall of Fame big men. At a certain period of time during one of Jordan's retirements many considered Pippen to be the best player in basketball.
The Bulls won without a great big man because they played lockdown defense. That wasn't all because of Jordan. The Bulls had better talent on the defensive side of the ball than any other team in the league. They always had three all-defensive team caliber players on their roster when they won: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Grant and throw in a player like Ron Harper who also played great defense. When a team has that kind of defensive talent they don't need an all-star big man to win.
It's not a secret as to how the Bulls won. The Bulls always had the two or three best players on the other team locked down with great defenders. Add a dynamic scorer like Jordan to that mix and you get championships.
Last edited by namlook; 12-21-2009 at 09:02 PM.
There is a pattern in NBA history, one that people keep reminding me of: 7 footers win les. You can't win without a great 7 footer. I keep hearing this.
Jordan proved that was crap, as long as you were good enough.
I AGREE with you. But the all time debate always points out that only the Jordan Bulls won without a HOF center in decades, and none since...
You generally need a big man to win but Jordan won because he had superior defensive talent on his team. That negated the need for a big man.
But it doesn't change the fact that the Jordan Bulls are an anomaly in NBA history.
We are arguing on the same side.
There's no doubt in my mind that if you had replaced Jordan with Kobe the championship bubbly would be flowing. Jordan had a great supporting cast and had the best collection of defenders on his team.
Scottie Pippen just never gets any credit for the Great player he was...always about MJ.
Most people that say this are probably too young to have been following the NBA in a serious way back then. Pippen was considered to be the best player in basketball at one time during a Jordan hiatus. In effect that means the Bulls probably had the two best players on their team for a period of time, and not only that they had the best defensive talent.
Jordan never won without Horace Grant (All-Star caliber, super defensively) or Rodman (greatest rebounder ever + elite defense).
Jordan + Pip negated the need to run the offense through a big man. But they definitely needed Ho and Rodman's defense.
What does it matter that Pippen was a big. He was the best perimiter defender on the planet, and arguably the best SF in basketball. I have seen quite a few stud big man/wing combos (Kareem/Magic, Dream/Drexler, Moses/Doc, Shaq/Kobe), but how many teams have had the games best SG and SF on the same team? How many teams have had the best defensive SG and SF on the same damn team? So no, MJ didn't have a big man. He only had the other best wing player in basketball on his team....as if that isn't an advantage.
Who was the great 7 footer on the Bad Boys? Didn't they win two les, while kicking the out of MJ on the way? Horace Grant was arguably as good as any big man on Detroit outside of Rodman...who also played with Jordan. Also, MJ did have bigs when he won. The only year he lost (95) was when his bigs weren't as good.
Good point. I would take Horace Grant over Bill Laimbeer or James Edwards.
Are you out of your mind? Pippen had the same team?!? Huh? So you think replacing Michael Jordan in the starting lineup with CBA scrub Pete Myers should equal championship? Seriously? When Pippen had to assume the role of best player on the Bulls where was his #2 guy? Jordan always had Pippen to take the pressure off. Who was Pippen going to depend on to consistently score 20+ or create their own shot when defenses keyed on him or he was having an off night? BJ Armstrong? Horace Grant? I don't think so.
I would like to see a Jordan-led Bulls team swap Scottie Pippen for Pete Myers for a couple of years and see how many les Jordan would have
I don't think anyone should really talk about greatest player ever. It should be greatest team ever. A great player can't go anywhere without his supporting cast.
I do not know what the obsession is with the le of Greatest player. In the end... it is because of his team that he is where he is.
shaq>pippen
gasol>horace grant
lamar odom + bynum> kukoc + luc longley
end of argument
End of argument? Uh, no. It's more complicated than that.
First of all, your comparisons are off because Kobe never played with Shaq and Gasol at the same time. But Jordan played with Pippen and Grant at the same time.
We should also all know how important defense is to winning. Everyone always ignores the level of defensive talent Jordan played with. Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper etc. They had a team stacked with great defenders and that's how they won.
The Bulls had four players that were multiple all-defensive team selections. The Bulls played lock-down defense because of the defensive talent had. Kobe has never played on a team with players that had the defensive skills that Jordan had around him. Jordan had the best perimeter defender in the league to guard the other team's best perimeter player, he had Grant or Rodman to lock down the other team's big and he was able to roam around and create havoc. Not to mention Jordan had perhaps the greatest rebounder in league history in Rodman.
Last year Kobe led his team to a championship without another great defensive player on his team. Jordan always had at least two players on his championship teams who were all-defensive team selections.
Last edited by namlook; 12-22-2009 at 02:03 AM.
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